, I figured it was time for a bit of "preventative maintenance". So I'm going take apart my Mini Vivaldi to see how things are holding up (and also for the fun of seeing how everything works). I may post a few pictures here if you are interested, or if you want to follow my "long winded" version with more and bigger photos, you can follow it on my blog here:
Actually, if you look at this closeup, you can see they removed that nut from the boiler about 4 years ago. (Another cost cutting measure I assume).chas wrote:Perhaps you already did this, if not I have a suggestion to add to this process. There is a Hex head brass nut on top of the boiler. If you remove it, you can insert a tube and siphon most of the water out.
I'm pretty sure mine doesn't have this hex nut. When I emptied my boiler in preperation for the descaling solution (pulled through the pump), I removed the boiler copper refill line and used a straw. It is brass/copper compression fitting; I didn't fear damaging it. You simply need to avoid knocking the loose fitting agains the brass threads, as space is restricted.Endo wrote:You could try removing the nut on the feed line I suppose, but there is not much room for a wrench and I didn't want to have another potential leak spot to check.
Although my overhaul method might seem a little complicated and perhaps intimidating, it's really not too bad. I prefer looking inside and physically removing the scale over simply using the descaler. I think it does a much better job and allows you to see other problem areas, like the corrosion. It's worth the little extra effort it takes.Louis wrote:When I emptied my boiler in preperation for the descaling solution (pulled through the pump), I removed the boiler copper refill line and used a straw.
The steam boiler is easy to drain with the plug (or the syphon), but how did you drain the brew boiler? Removed the feed line nut and syphoned, I assume?Dodger1 wrote:I started out by draining both of the boilers .......
Here's what Jason at CC recommended:Endo wrote:The steam boiler is easy to drain with the plug (or the syphon), but how did you drain the brew boiler? Removed the feed line nut and syphoned, I assume?
Wow! Thanks Keith. I gotta try this.Dodger1 wrote: "To drain the brew boiler, empty the water reservoir and turn the machine off. Then press and hold the hot water button on the left and then press the on/off button and release while continuing to hold the hot water button. Lean the machine forward a little bit while doing this and then release the button when no more water comes out then empty the drip tray."
I had another look at the flow diagram. I'm guessing now that all that happens when you press the "hot water and on/off" combo is the same as the "shot" button (pump on and solenid C open), except the volumetric dosing logic (cutoff) is deactivated.Endo wrote: By the way, just out of curiosity, does anybody know what this combo of buttons actually does besides activate the pump and open the grouphead solenoid C (like pushing one of the shot buttons)?
I've done that procedure that Jason suggested several times and each time the pump is running, so I've got to believe that it's not gravity. Try it yourself to see what I mean.Endo wrote:I had another look at the flow diagram. I'm guessing now that all that happens when you press the "hot water and on/off" combo is the same as the "shot" button (pump on and solenid C open), except the volumetric dosing logic (cutoff) is deactivated.Endo wrote:
The water is not being "pumped" out. All the is happening is the water in the brew boiler is poured out by gravity (like opening a hole in a bucket). With the pump running, a vacuum is prevented from forming behind the falling water in this closed system, which would slow the flow out (like what happens pouring water out of closed coke bottle).
Not all the water comes out simply because the path out is not straight (but rather a reverse "L" shape), so you may need to rock the machine forward and back a few times to get most out.
Well...what else could it be if the reservoir is removed?Dodger1 wrote:I've done that procedure that Jason suggested several times and each time the pump is running, so I've got to believe that it's not gravity.
Does this method work only on the Mini or also on the plumbed-in Vivaldi? Currently, I siphon water out of the brew boiler. Is there an easier way?Endo wrote:When you first push the buttons, the vibe pump still has some water in it (even though the reservoir is removed). This little bit of water gets the brew boiler water moving out the group head at first, forming a vacuum behind the falling water which sucks the remaining water out (like a syphon). Once running, the pump only pushes in air to prevent a vacuum from forming behind the water in the brew boiler which would stop the water from falling out.
No.Louis wrote:Does this method work only on the Mini or also on the plumbed-in Vivaldi? Currently, I siphon water out of the brew boiler. Is there an easier way?
Endo, my bad. I thought the pump was not running, that only the three way solenoid opened.Endo wrote:Louis wrote:The rotary pump can't run dry (it will seize and cause major damage).
Endo, did you get a chance to test it and if so, what did you find?Endo wrote:
Well...what else could it be if the reservoir is removed?
I'm guessing it works like the syphon method;
When you first push the buttons, the vibe pump still has some water in it (even though the reservoir is removed). This little bit of water gets the brew boiler water moving out the group head at first, which sucks the remaining water out (like a syphon). Once running, the pump only pushes in air to prevent a vacuum from forming behind the falling water, which would stop the water from falling out.
The other possibility is that the pump is pumping some air, which forces the water out. But I don't think the vibe pump is designed to generate air pressure (I may be wrong).
That's my theory anyway. I'll test it tonight.
I referred the the water flow diagram a few times when playing with the flow meter. Seems correct to me. The quad adapter is a monster. Copper pipes going everywhere!chas wrote:While you're in there how about scrutinizing the complete water flow path and comparing it to what I have documented in the User's Manual. I am still not certain that the diagram in the manual is 100% correct.
Draining the brew boiler using this method takes less than 5 minutes. Super easy and no tools required.JohnB wrote:So how long does it take to remove the reservoir & drain the brew boiler using this method? I seem to recall that by flipping the machine forward, unscrewing the finned cover & using a turkey baster to suck out the water it was empty in less then a minute.
No it was for the brew boiler & if you are descaling you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to see what's inside & to assess whether you accomplished anything or not. You will not remove all the debris that gets trapped in the brew boiler by pushing a few buttons as it never comes out with the water flow.Endo wrote:Draining the brew boiler using this method takes less than 5 minutes. Super easy and no tools required.
The other method you described was for the Mini's sealed steam boiler. Still a pain. I still wish it had a top like the S1. But the newly added drain plug makes it a bit easier. At least you no longer need the syphon tube to empty it. It still prefer filling it back up using the vacuum breaker though. Gives you a change to descale it at the same time (which it needs often).
This is not a descaling method, just a means of removing brew boiler water (i.e. pre-descaling or shipping).JohnB wrote:No it was for the brew boiler & if you are descaling you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to see what's inside & to assess whether you accomplished anything or not. You will not remove all the debris that gets trapped in the brew boiler by pushing a few buttons as it never comes out with the water flow.
No kidding, I did read the thread.Endo wrote:
This is not a descaling method, just a means of removing brew boiler water (i.e. pre-descaling or shipping).
It came up when Keith described descaling the boilers as a way to drain the brew boiler. My point was if you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to descale it's actually quicker to use a turkey baster/syringe. Also if you are shipping in the winter time you had better tip the machine WAY up or you will still leave water trapped in the boiler using that method.I wouldn't say that it would do nothing but I would consider it a half assed attempt at descaling. If you don't open up the brew boiler how do you know what your descaling accomplished. Plus if you don't open it to clean it out how much of the crap that came off stays trapped in the pockets in the brew boiler? I'm also not a fan of flushing all that debris through the solenoids & group. It only took a little over a year for the ugly hard deposits to attack the inside of my S1V2 brew boiler & it took over 24 hours of soaking to clean it out. Had I waited 3 years it would have eaten through to the outside. As it was the deposits left behind some good size craters in the boiler wall.Endo wrote:Keith can clear up what he meant, but it sounded to me like he wanted an easy way to empty the boilers on his Mini, then run a descaling solution, WITHOUT opening them up.
You can argue it will do nothing if you wish, but I've descaled 2 machines in the last month and I've seen it work very well on some parts (like the copper heating element for example). It doesn't seem to work as well on thicker scale, but I think it's worth doing once a year as a good preventative measure. But as you say, I'd still recommend opening everything up every 3 years or so for a full inspection.
No rockingDodger1 wrote: I was simply looking for an easy way to drain the brew boiler, in order to get the descaling solution into it and Jason, at CC, suggested that I use that procedure. He did state that in order to get most of the water out of the brew boiler that it needed to really tipped forward but didn't mention rocking it.
That was just something I did to see if the water would stop and then start. To see whether it was gravity or pump driven.Yes, we've all pointed out the need for opening up the brew boiler every few years. As I pointed out in my blog, it's also most useful for cleaning off the rust near the cap and threads. (This actually concerned me more than the scale).Dodger1 wrote:....if you don't open up the brew boiler it's a half assed attempt at descaling.