Mini Overhaul Time !

This forum contains various threads with photos on how to perform various maintenance and repairs on your S1.
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Endo

Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

After almost 3 years (and now that I have my Cremina as backup) :lol: , I figured it was time for a bit of "preventative maintenance". So I'm going take apart my Mini Vivaldi to see how things are holding up (and also for the fun of seeing how everything works). I may post a few pictures here if you are interested, or if you want to follow my "long winded" version with more and bigger photos, you can follow it on my blog here:

http://cremina-endo.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Endo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
caf4brains

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by caf4brains »

Nice to see the guts of the flow meter. It looked spotless.....
Genkidess

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Genkidess »

Endo great pics, the flowmeter looks in great shape....... I'll be ordering my new flowmeter tomorrow. I will be following your pics here and the blog...

Thanks
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Well I opened my brew boiler.....and am I ever glad I did! Disgusting. :pukeright:
Brew Boil Scale
Brew Boil Scale
2011-08-16 018 (320x253).jpg (85.55 KiB) Viewed 27116 times
More pictures to come later.
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Well eveything is descaled and I'm putting things back together. I'm very glad I did the brew boiler disassembly since I found a good amount a scale starting to build up and also some areas around the boiler neck where corrosion had eaten through the nickel plating (like Oton had on his as well).

I'd definitely recommend doing this at least once every 2 years, to avoid more costly problems down the road.

Once you have the panels off, it's not too hard to get the brass nut off the back of the boiler and get inside to clean. You don't need any special tools or even gaskets. It's been designed to be easy to repeatably open up and check.

If it helps you can follow the steps and photos on my blog.

http://cremina-endo.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... aling.html
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chas
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Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by chas »

Perhaps you already did this, if not I have a suggestion to add to this process. There is a Hex head brass nut on top of the boiler. If you remove it, you can insert a tube and siphon most of the water out. This should greatly reduce but not totally eliminate the amount of water that pours out when you open it up. This is one of the things CCS does before shipping the machines after bench testing to ensure there is no water leakage in transit.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

chas wrote:Perhaps you already did this, if not I have a suggestion to add to this process. There is a Hex head brass nut on top of the boiler. If you remove it, you can insert a tube and siphon most of the water out.
Actually, if you look at this closeup, you can see they removed that nut from the boiler about 4 years ago. (Another cost cutting measure I assume).

Maybe you can ask CCS what they do now to remove the water? You could try removing the nut on the feed line I suppose, but there is not much room for a wrench and I didn't want to have another potential leak spot to check.
No Top Hex Nut
No Top Hex Nut
no_hex (400x318).jpg (123.62 KiB) Viewed 27085 times
Louis

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Louis »

Endo wrote:You could try removing the nut on the feed line I suppose, but there is not much room for a wrench and I didn't want to have another potential leak spot to check.
I'm pretty sure mine doesn't have this hex nut. When I emptied my boiler in preperation for the descaling solution (pulled through the pump), I removed the boiler copper refill line and used a straw. It is brass/copper compression fitting; I didn't fear damaging it. You simply need to avoid knocking the loose fitting agains the brass threads, as space is restricted.
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Louis wrote:When I emptied my boiler in preperation for the descaling solution (pulled through the pump), I removed the boiler copper refill line and used a straw.
Although my overhaul method might seem a little complicated and perhaps intimidating, it's really not too bad. I prefer looking inside and physically removing the scale over simply using the descaler. I think it does a much better job and allows you to see other problem areas, like the corrosion. It's worth the little extra effort it takes.

I learned a lot doing it the first time, but I'll do it slightly different next time:

The part I didn't like was the water spilling out of the brew boiler. Next time, I'll simply syphon out the steam boiler first, then role the machine over on its front when I take take off the big brass nut on the brew boiler. This way the water will stay inside the brew boiler and I can syphon it out easily just like the steam boiler. I'll then pour citric acid inside the brew boiler and let it dissolve the scale properly for 30 minutes before I scour out any hard bits with the scotchbrite pad.
oton

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by oton »

I'm enjoying your blog with the S1 striptease. Thanks for that. :smile:

What's your wife opinion about disassemble the machine? :lol:
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

I simply replaced the Vivaldi with the Cremina in the kitchen and brought the Vivaldi down in my "man cave" to tinker with.

My wife said "Oooooh, I like that smaller machine". Then I made her a Latte and she said, "I hope you don't expect me to do that". She also didn't like the dry Cremina macrofoam as much as the creamy Vivaldi microfoam. (Yes....the Vivaldi is a much better steamer since the tip holes are too big on the Cremina and the tips are non-interchangeable).

The Vivaldi is a WAY better milk drink machine. It's the only way to go if you are serving more than 2 people (like at dinner parties). It's also very easy for other people in the family to use. But if it was just me, and I wanted simply walk up to the machine and get a quick espresso. The Cremina is the one I'd choose.

Actually....who am I kidding. I'll just keep both. I just to need to find a place for that Synesso now. :lol:
JohnB

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by JohnB »

If you lay a towel on the counter & flip the Vivaldi onto it's front there is no spillage when you open the brew boiler as it is facing up. Suck the water out with a turkey baster/syringe & add descaling solution.
Dodger1

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Dodger1 »

Endo, thanks for the very detailed instructions.

I started out by draining both of the boilers and then filled them up with a 50/50 mix of vinegar and distilled water. Turned my Mini II on and let both of the boilers heat up for ~ 3 hours, turned them both off and let the mixture sit in the boilers overnight. Drained both of the boilers and then removed the "captains wheel" on the back and pulled the heating element out and found that everything was about as pristine as you could get, aside from a just a tad of scale on one end of the heating coil which came right off with a wet paper towel.

The biggest problem was in getting rid of the vinegar smell from both of the boilers but after I ran ~ 1 gallon of my 50% distilled water mixed with regular tap water the vinegar smell was all gone.

FYI, the captains wheel was a pia to get started but after that everything went really smoothly and the backing plate came off with just a little finger pressure, so I didn't even have to use a chisel. I did lube the black 0-ring on the outside edge of the backing plate with Lubri-Film Plus. Also, there was a little water when I removed the heating element but it wasn't excessive.

Keith
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Dodger1 wrote:I started out by draining both of the boilers .......
The steam boiler is easy to drain with the plug (or the syphon), but how did you drain the brew boiler? Removed the feed line nut and syphoned, I assume?

As I mentioned earlier, I think the easiest way is to do it is:

1- descale the steam boiler first
2- loosen the brew boiler nut only slightly when machine is upright
3- flip it on the front to completly remove the brew nut and keep the water from spilling out
4- syphon and descale the brew boiler (vertically)

I do both the boilers (and heater) using a 30 minute citric acid soak, then rinse with water. (The quick citric acid seems to leave less aftertaste than the all night vinegar soak...you just need to be careful not to expose the chrome parts).
Dodger1

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Dodger1 »

Endo wrote:The steam boiler is easy to drain with the plug (or the syphon), but how did you drain the brew boiler? Removed the feed line nut and syphoned, I assume?
Here's what Jason at CC recommended:

"To drain the brew boiler, empty the water reservoir and turn the machine off. Then press and hold the hot water button on the left and then press the on/off button and release while continuing to hold the hot water button. Lean the machine forward a little bit while doing this and then release the button when no more water comes out then empty the drip tray."

That almost completely removed all of the water from the brew boiler and as a side benefit, it's extremely easy to do that procedure. FYI, in order to get almost all of the water out you need to tilt the machine really forward.

I can see how your 30 minute soak would leave less aftertaste but my procedure removed ~ 95+ % of the scale and I didn't have to soak any parts.

Thanks again for posting this information.

Keith
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Dodger1 wrote: "To drain the brew boiler, empty the water reservoir and turn the machine off. Then press and hold the hot water button on the left and then press the on/off button and release while continuing to hold the hot water button. Lean the machine forward a little bit while doing this and then release the button when no more water comes out then empty the drip tray."
Wow! Thanks Keith. I gotta try this.

I knew about the "hot water + on/off" button trick, but I never figured it would work with the pump dry. Huh!

I'll definitely try this next time I descale the brew boiler. It also solves a few other mysteries; like how they drain the brew boiler prior to shipping. Cool! 8)

By the way, just out of curiosity, does anybody know what this combo of buttons actually does besides activate the pump and open the grouphead solenoid C (like pushing one of the shot buttons)?
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Endo wrote: By the way, just out of curiosity, does anybody know what this combo of buttons actually does besides activate the pump and open the grouphead solenoid C (like pushing one of the shot buttons)?
I had another look at the flow diagram. I'm guessing now that all that happens when you press the "hot water and on/off" combo is the same as the "shot" button (pump on and solenid C open), except the volumetric dosing logic (cutoff) is deactivated.

The water is not being "pumped" out. All the is happening is the water in the brew boiler is poured out by gravity (like opening a hole in a bucket). With the pump running, a vacuum is prevented from forming behind the falling water in this closed system, which would slow the flow out (like what happens pouring water out of closed coke bottle).

Not all the water comes out simply because the path out is not straight (but rather a reverse "L" shape), so you may need to rock the machine forward and back a few times to get most out.
Dodger1

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Dodger1 »

Endo wrote:
Endo wrote:
I had another look at the flow diagram. I'm guessing now that all that happens when you press the "hot water and on/off" combo is the same as the "shot" button (pump on and solenid C open), except the volumetric dosing logic (cutoff) is deactivated.

The water is not being "pumped" out. All the is happening is the water in the brew boiler is poured out by gravity (like opening a hole in a bucket). With the pump running, a vacuum is prevented from forming behind the falling water in this closed system, which would slow the flow out (like what happens pouring water out of closed coke bottle).

Not all the water comes out simply because the path out is not straight (but rather a reverse "L" shape), so you may need to rock the machine forward and back a few times to get most out.
I've done that procedure that Jason suggested several times and each time the pump is running, so I've got to believe that it's not gravity. Try it yourself to see what I mean.

BTW, if you do this, or anyone else does, and drain the brew boilers tank completely, DON'T forget to use the procedure for initial use of the machine; as described below:

Press the ON / OFF (27) and Hot Water (23) buttons simultaneously. During this stage, the control lights EMPTY and On/STBY (22) blink while the pump runs.

Keith
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Dodger1 wrote:I've done that procedure that Jason suggested several times and each time the pump is running, so I've got to believe that it's not gravity.
Well...what else could it be if the reservoir is removed?

I'm guessing it works like the syphon method;

When you first push the buttons, the vibe pump still has some water in it (even though the reservoir is removed). This little bit of water gets the brew boiler water moving out the group head at first, which sucks the remaining water out (like a syphon). Once running, the pump only pushes in air to prevent a vacuum from forming behind the falling water, which would stop the water from falling out.

The other possibility is that the pump is pumping some air, which forces the water out. But I don't think the vibe pump is designed to generate air pressure (I may be wrong).

That's my theory anyway. I'll test it tonight.
Last edited by Endo on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Louis

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Louis »

Endo wrote:When you first push the buttons, the vibe pump still has some water in it (even though the reservoir is removed). This little bit of water gets the brew boiler water moving out the group head at first, forming a vacuum behind the falling water which sucks the remaining water out (like a syphon). Once running, the pump only pushes in air to prevent a vacuum from forming behind the water in the brew boiler which would stop the water from falling out.
Does this method work only on the Mini or also on the plumbed-in Vivaldi? Currently, I siphon water out of the brew boiler. Is there an easier way?
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Louis wrote:Does this method work only on the Mini or also on the plumbed-in Vivaldi? Currently, I siphon water out of the brew boiler. Is there an easier way?
No.

The rotary pump can't run dry (it will seize and cause major damage).
Louis

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Louis »

Endo wrote:
Louis wrote:The rotary pump can't run dry (it will seize and cause major damage).
Endo, my bad. I thought the pump was not running, that only the three way solenoid opened.
Dodger1

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Dodger1 »

Endo wrote:
Well...what else could it be if the reservoir is removed?

I'm guessing it works like the syphon method;

When you first push the buttons, the vibe pump still has some water in it (even though the reservoir is removed). This little bit of water gets the brew boiler water moving out the group head at first, which sucks the remaining water out (like a syphon). Once running, the pump only pushes in air to prevent a vacuum from forming behind the falling water, which would stop the water from falling out.

The other possibility is that the pump is pumping some air, which forces the water out. But I don't think the vibe pump is designed to generate air pressure (I may be wrong).

That's my theory anyway. I'll test it tonight.
Endo, did you get a chance to test it and if so, what did you find?
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Yup. I gave it a try.

It's works pretty much as described.

With the machine off, if you remove the reservoir and then push the "hot water" and "on/off" button togther, it simply turns on the pump and opens the grouphead solenoid. (This normally can't happen since the pump is disabled when the reservoir is empty or removed).

Water will start coming out of the grouphead as soon as you push the buttons, but unless you rock the machine forward, the water stream coming out will stop after aboout 10 seconds. If you rock it forward, the water stream will continue as the water is simply "poured" out the grouphead (with perhaps a tiny bit of help from the vibe pump, which is now pumping air). I rocked the machine forward and backward several times and the stream would stop each time it rocked backward, then restart when rocked forward.

The water doesn't come out very fast. It comes out about the speed you get from a shot. So I'd recommend stopping stopping this draining operation after 1 minute to give the pump a cooldown (since it is operating without water). Then restart. You should be able to get most water out in about 3 tries of 1 minute each.

After empty, you simply re-install the reservoir and press the same buttons to refill the boiler. You only need to keep the machine flat and water will start coming out the grouphead again after the 0.45L boiler has reached the top (*and all air has been voided).

Very cool ! Vibe pumps rule !
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chas
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Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by chas »

Endo:

While you're in there how about scrutinizing the complete water flow path and comparing it to what I have documented in the User's Manual. I am still not certain that the diagram in the manual is 100% correct.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
JohnB

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by JohnB »

So how long does it take to remove the reservoir & drain the brew boiler using this method? I seem to recall that by flipping the machine forward, unscrewing the finned cover & using a turkey baster to suck out the water it was empty in less then a minute. :roll:
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

chas wrote:While you're in there how about scrutinizing the complete water flow path and comparing it to what I have documented in the User's Manual. I am still not certain that the diagram in the manual is 100% correct.
I referred the the water flow diagram a few times when playing with the flow meter. Seems correct to me. The quad adapter is a monster. Copper pipes going everywhere!
JohnB wrote:So how long does it take to remove the reservoir & drain the brew boiler using this method? I seem to recall that by flipping the machine forward, unscrewing the finned cover & using a turkey baster to suck out the water it was empty in less then a minute. :roll:
Draining the brew boiler using this method takes less than 5 minutes. Super easy and no tools required.

The other method you described was for the Mini's sealed steam boiler. Still a pain. I still wish it had a top like the S1. But the newly added drain plug makes it a bit easier. At least you no longer need the syphon tube to empty it. It still prefer filling it back up using the vacuum breaker though. Gives you a change to descale it at the same time (which it needs often).
JohnB

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:Draining the brew boiler using this method takes less than 5 minutes. Super easy and no tools required.

The other method you described was for the Mini's sealed steam boiler. Still a pain. I still wish it had a top like the S1. But the newly added drain plug makes it a bit easier. At least you no longer need the syphon tube to empty it. It still prefer filling it back up using the vacuum breaker though. Gives you a change to descale it at the same time (which it needs often).
No it was for the brew boiler & if you are descaling you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to see what's inside & to assess whether you accomplished anything or not. You will not remove all the debris that gets trapped in the brew boiler by pushing a few buttons as it never comes out with the water flow.
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

JohnB wrote:No it was for the brew boiler & if you are descaling you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to see what's inside & to assess whether you accomplished anything or not. You will not remove all the debris that gets trapped in the brew boiler by pushing a few buttons as it never comes out with the water flow.
This is not a descaling method, just a means of removing brew boiler water (i.e. pre-descaling or shipping).
JohnB

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:
This is not a descaling method, just a means of removing brew boiler water (i.e. pre-descaling or shipping).
No kidding, I did read the thread. :roll: It came up when Keith described descaling the boilers as a way to drain the brew boiler. My point was if you are going to open the brew boiler anyways to descale it's actually quicker to use a turkey baster/syringe. Also if you are shipping in the winter time you had better tip the machine WAY up or you will still leave water trapped in the boiler using that method.
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Keith can clear up what he meant, but it sounded to me like he wanted an easy way to empty the boilers on his Mini, then run a descaling solution, WITHOUT opening them up.

You can argue it will do nothing if you wish, but I've descaled 2 machines in the last month and I've seen it work very well on some parts (like the copper heating element for example). It doesn't seem to work as well on thicker scale, but I think it's worth doing once a year as a good preventative measure. But as you say, I'd still recommend opening everything up every 3 years or so for a full inspection.

The method described (draining steam boiler through drain plug, then draining brew boiler using tilt and buttons) is by far the easiest method to drain. You can then simply fill the reservoir with descaler, and then use the same buttons again to bring the descaler into both empty boilers (at full concentration for 30 minutes or so). Then do the whole draining sequence again, but with regular water, for a good rinse. (Maybe rinse twice).

My bet is CCS uses this method on all Minis they test, prior to shipping. If that is the case, I wouldn't worry about freezing (since the boiler has plenty of space for the small amount of remaining water to expand). To be honest, I'd be more worried about flowmeter freezing damge, from what I've seen.
JohnB

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by JohnB »

Endo wrote:Keith can clear up what he meant, but it sounded to me like he wanted an easy way to empty the boilers on his Mini, then run a descaling solution, WITHOUT opening them up.

You can argue it will do nothing if you wish, but I've descaled 2 machines in the last month and I've seen it work very well on some parts (like the copper heating element for example). It doesn't seem to work as well on thicker scale, but I think it's worth doing once a year as a good preventative measure. But as you say, I'd still recommend opening everything up every 3 years or so for a full inspection.
I wouldn't say that it would do nothing but I would consider it a half assed attempt at descaling. If you don't open up the brew boiler how do you know what your descaling accomplished. Plus if you don't open it to clean it out how much of the crap that came off stays trapped in the pockets in the brew boiler? I'm also not a fan of flushing all that debris through the solenoids & group. It only took a little over a year for the ugly hard deposits to attack the inside of my S1V2 brew boiler & it took over 24 hours of soaking to clean it out. Had I waited 3 years it would have eaten through to the outside. As it was the deposits left behind some good size craters in the boiler wall.
Dodger1

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Dodger1 »

To clarify:

I was simply looking for an easy way to drain the brew boiler, in order to get the descaling solution into it and Jason, at CC, suggested that I use that procedure. He did state that in order to get most of the water out of the brew boiler that it needed to really tipped forward but didn't mention rocking it.

As to speed, it most likely would be a dead heat between John's procedure and Jason's but using the procedure that Jason suggested does not require tipping the machine onto its front and using a turkey baster/syringe. I will state that when I opened up the brew boiler there wasn't a heck of a lot of water left, so I've simply got to give the nod to Jason's procedure.

I do agree with John in that if you don't open up the brew boiler it's a half assed attempt at descaling because, as he stated, you wouldn't know if your descaling attempt was successful.

As I had mentioned, when I opened up my brew boiler it was close to being pristine. In retrospect I think that's due to my using water with a low hardness from the get go and the fact that I used a fairly aggressive descaling solution. Of course the fact that I let the boilers heat up for ~ 3 hours, with the descaling solution in them, and then let them sit overnight which really gave the descaling solution a chance to do its thing.
Endo

Re: Mini Overhaul Time !

Post by Endo »

Dodger1 wrote: I was simply looking for an easy way to drain the brew boiler, in order to get the descaling solution into it and Jason, at CC, suggested that I use that procedure. He did state that in order to get most of the water out of the brew boiler that it needed to really tipped forward but didn't mention rocking it.
No rocking :!: That was just something I did to see if the water would stop and then start. To see whether it was gravity or pump driven.
Dodger1 wrote:....if you don't open up the brew boiler it's a half assed attempt at descaling.
Yes, we've all pointed out the need for opening up the brew boiler every few years. As I pointed out in my blog, it's also most useful for cleaning off the rust near the cap and threads. (This actually concerned me more than the scale).

And since someone is bound to ask; 2 half-assed descalings won't equal one full-assed descaling. :lol:
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