15 amp vs 20 amp

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bluesman13

15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by bluesman13 »

Do you know the difference between the 15 and 20 amp machines. I know the functional differences, but physically? Are they identical except for the end of the plug? What I am trying to ask is that if I purchased a 15 amp and later when I have a 20 amp dedicated outlet, want to convert it, can I change the plug and flip the switch, and I'm there?
aptosca

Post by aptosca »

They're identical except for the plug.

You don't even need to switch the plug if you don't want to, since a 15A plug will fit a 20A receptacle (though this would let you plug into another 15A circuit without flipping the switch back).

I took the risk and just flipped the switch even though it's on a 15A circuit. There's nothing else on that circuit (except the grinder I guess). I've yet to pop the breaker. (Not that I'm recommending this, but ...)
Niko

Post by Niko »

Get the 20A machine and run to your local hardware store to buy a 20A receptacle to install. Even though your breaker may be a 15A, just swap it out and run the machine on 15A so you can get that angled plug for future use...and besides, it looks cooler :D

You don't even have to open the machine to flip the switch, just hold down the ON/OFF button (on the front panel) for 10 seconds and machine goes into Economy Mode.
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

Niko wrote:Get the 20A machine and run to your local hardware store to buy a 20A receptacle to install. Even though your breaker may be a 15A, just swap it out and run the machine on 15A so you can get that angled plug for future use...and besides, it looks cooler :D

You don't even have to open the machine to flip the switch, just hold down the ON/OFF button (on the front panel) for 10 seconds and machine goes into Economy Mode.
one small problem: I already bought the 15amp about 1 month ago, and then started reading about the differences and wish I had bought the 20 amp, not for now, but for the future, hence my question about converting a 15 -- > 20.
Niko

Post by Niko »

You're still OK then...just flip the switch when you're ready to go for 20A on a 20A circuit. If you had gotten the 20A machine, you wouldn't have to pop the top off and flip a switch.
No big deal, you can still run in 20A mode :D
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

Niko wrote:You're still OK then...just flip the switch when you're ready to go for 20A on a 20A circuit. If you had gotten the 20A machine, you wouldn't have to pop the top off and flip a switch.
No big deal, you can still run in 20A mode :D
ok, I'm dense. To convert to a 15 amp to 20 amp, all I have to do is
a) change the end of the power cord to a 20 amp plug
b) flip the 15-->20 switch in side the VII
c) plug it into a dedicated 20 amp outlet

Have I got it??
Niko

Post by Niko »

No, no, no...you're not dense.
This is confusing a little to me too :? the way it's explained.
By what I understand, the machines are identical; they just don't want some moron with a 20A machine to plug into some 15A circuit and burn down the kitchen so that's why the funny-looking plug is at the end of the cord. So, in order to have a machine that's 15A ready, they changed the end of the plug to a normal-looking one so it's plug n' play.
Since the machines are identical, all you (and I do mean you personally) have to do is pop the top of the machine off and flip the little toggle switch to 20A and your machine should be ready to go, no plug change needed because a 20A receptacle on the wall will accept any normal plug as well.
Just remember, the 20A funny-looking plug is for the dense people like me :D to NOT go pluggin' around anywhere.
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

Niko wrote:No, no, no...you're not dense.
This is confusing a little to me too :? the way it's explained.
By what I understand, the machines are identical; they just don't want some moron with a 20A machine to plug into some 15A circuit and burn down the kitchen so that's why the funny-looking plug is at the end of the cord. So, in order to have a machine that's 15A ready, they changed the end of the plug to a normal-looking one so it's plug n' play.
Since the machines are identical, all you (and I do mean you personally) have to do is pop the top of the machine off and flip the little toggle switch to 20A and your machine should be ready to go, no plug change needed because a 20A receptacle on the wall will accept any normal plug as well.
Just remember, the 20A funny-looking plug is for the dense people like me :D to NOT go pluggin' around anywhere.
hey Niko,

thanks orthe response! So, I got it now. For 20amp, I don't even need to change the plug. Flip the swithch and find a 20amp dedeicated socket and I'm there! Cool!
Niko

Post by Niko »

:thumbup: :headbang:
aptosca

Post by aptosca »

I don't remember if this is right, but I think perhaps when you flip the switch from 15A to 20A you also have to cancel economy/15A mode, since in the 20A position it can do either? Anybody know for sure?
Niko

Post by Niko »

I remember having to do both of those things on one of my machines. I flipped the switch but the machine was still in Economy Mode according to the front panel, so I held the ON/OFF button for over 10 seconds to clear it.
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Hello Everyone, I just signed in to be a member. I had been reading for about 2-3 weeks and spent a lot of time reading recently since I just got my Mini Vivaldi II this past Monday. I have the 15A since I don't have a dedicated line just for the Mini Vivaldi II. However, I intend to convert to 20A when I get a dedicated line for the VII. May I ask how do you flip the top to change the switch to 20A. What can I use to flip the top? Does it make a big difference on performance from 15A to 20A? Can I pull shuts back to back and steam milk for cappas without waiting for the machine to come back to the temperature setting? This might be a silly question. Forgive me. Or the waiting time is shorter? I am the only one who drinks cappa at home 2-3 times a day. Do you think it is a good idea to convert to 20A? Or unless I have to entertain friends and family once in a while? BTW, I love this machine. Thanks to all in advance for your reply.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Welcome to the S1 Cafe! :)

It's easy to change from 15 to 20A, there's a single small screw holding the warming tray - look on top, smack in the middle towards the very front is the screw. I assume it's the same as a plumbed VII version.
Once you remove the top, you'll see the toggle switch that flips the machine between the two power settings.

...and yes, the machine is a whole different animal in 20A mode. :wink:
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Hello Niko,

Thanks a lot for the quick response. Would you mind expanding when you said that the 20A is a whole different animal? May I ask in what way? This question is also addressed to any member who knows the answer. As you know, I'm new in the Espresso thing. I just started last month. I started with Rancilio Silvia but returned it before the 30 days was over because I was having problem in steaming. I had to purge out water for about 40 to 45 seconds before I could start steaming. The coffee was sitting for 3 minutes or so before I was done with steaming. It's nothing compared to VII. Pls. don't get me wrong. Silvia is a good machine at it's price if you know the trick and you have the patience. It's a way of life with Silvia.

BTW, I have question about the steamer of the VII. Mine came with the shorter arm. The very first time I steamed, I used the 20 oz pitcher for a 4 oz milk since I thought, the power of the steamer would paint me with the milk. However, the steam arm won't even reach the milk. Hence, I decided to use the 12 oz pitcher which did the work very well. ChrisCoffee told me that I don't have to put the steam wand all the way down touching the bottom or I will burn the milk or something or I will get like big bubbles. I think I have read on one of the post that you have to put the steam wand all the way down when you steam milk. May I ask how far down? Like how many inches away from the bottom? After maneuvering the steam arm to the left, to the front and to the right, I found that mine (to the left), on the 20 oz pitcher, the lowest it go down is about half an inch more or less from the bottom. That is, I have to flip the pitcher a little bit.

Thanks in advance for replies or comments.

Aracel
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

I've only used the S1 in 20A mode so I'll leave the 15 vs 20A question to someone else.

When stretching/aerating the milk you want the tip just below the surface. Once you reach 100*F you will set the tip deeper into the milk to create a rolling effect. You will be tipping the pitcher at various angles to achieve the desired results so don't think you have to keep it flat.

Lots of good info in Scott Rao's new book http://www.professionalbaristashandbook.com/
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Thanks JohnB,

I really love being a member of this site. I get result on my questions that fast and I'm learning.

I do stretch the milk up to 100*F with the tip just below the surface of the milk. May I ask how far you bring down the tip once the temperature reaches the 100*F? Do you go down all the way to the bottom or just at the middle of the milk (between the surface and the bottom of the milk)? The reason why I'm asking this is because if I use the 20 oz pitcher, the tip of the wand could only go down half an inch away from the bottom of the pitcher. If this is more than enough, then the short arm steamer is not an issue.

Thanks a lot for any replies and input.
Aracel
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

There is no need to sink the tip to the bottom of the pitcher. I normally tip the pitcher to the side & place the tip about half way between the top & bottom of the milk. The key is to place the tip & angle the pitcher so that you get the milk rolling while you bring it up to temp. The longer S5 wand does give you some extra length which is nice to have when you are tipping the pitcher. I'm guessing that the Mini comes with the same wand as the S1?? I thought there was something different on the Mini. Maybe the tip??
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Thanks so much JohnB. The Mini comes with the .9mm four hole steam tip which is now standard for the Mini. I think the holes are smaller which makes it easier in stretching milk compared to the bigger holes. ChrisCoffee informed me that with the extension or long arm, I could not swivel the steam wand towards the drip tray. I could only place it outside. Besides, if I have to change it to the long arm, they said that it is very hard coz I have to open 4 panels.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Thats interesting, so the Mini has less space between the group head & drip tray cover or is the wand just mounted lower? I wonder if the stock Mini wand might be shorter then the stock S1 wand. This would facilitate removing the water reservoir? On the S1 the wand is easily changed without removing any panels & the S5 wand tucks back in no problem. The .9mm tip is standard on all the recent S1s also.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Aracel wrote:Hello Niko,

Thanks a lot for the quick response. Would you mind expanding when you said that the 20A is a whole different animal? May I ask in what way?
I ran one of my S1's on 15A mode for about a month before I made time to switch out the breakers, the machine was crippled in my opinion if you're a Cappa or Latte drinker. If you only drink espresso then it's fine on 15A mode but I found that the machine slowed me down quite a bit waiting for the steam boiler to get its turn since the group boiler gets priority.
Let's put it this way:
It's a dual boiler machine on 20A mode.
It's a single boiler machine on 15A.
Those who say it's fine on 15A either haven't tried it on 20A or they simply don't mind the down time. Some don't mind but it bothered me enough to switch out the breaker.

As for the milk steaming, try getting the milk only to about 80-85F before sinking the tip down all the way. The S1 is a really fast steamer and sometimes the thermometers can't keep up :wink:
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

Niko wrote:
As for the milk steaming, try getting the milk only to about 80-85F before sinking the tip down all the way. The S1 is a really fast steamer and sometimes the thermometers can't keep up :wink:
I should have mentioned that as I switch over when the thermo shows 85-90* just as I cut the steam when the thermo hits 145 - 148*. Theres a good 10*+ of lag on the thermometer.
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Thats interesting, so the Mini has less space between the group head & drip tray cover or is the wand just mounted lower? I wonder if the stock Mini wand might be shorter then the stock S1 wand. This would facilitate removing the water reservoir? On the S1 the wand is easily changed without removing any panels & the S5 wand tucks back in no problem. The .9mm tip is standard on all the recent S1s also.
The Mini has the .9mm Four "smaller" holes on the tip. ChrisCoffee informed me that this is one of the easiest to produce excellent micro foam fast and easy even with small quantities of milk compared to the one with bigger holes. I swing the steam wand to the left when I pull out the water reservoir. I wish the Mini has the same feature as the S1 in which the wand is easily changed without removing the panels and you could tuck it back in. Does any member in this site has a Mini and had changed the steam wand to a longer arm? I wish to hear from you if you don't mind. I'm also anxious to know if the S1 wand is longer than the Mini wand.
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

Let's put it this way:
It's a dual boiler machine on 20A mode.
It's a single boiler machine on 15A.
Those who say it's fine on 15A either haven't tried it on 20A or they simply don't mind the down time. Some don't mind but it bothered me enough to switch out the breaker.
I think Niko you're right. I just don't understand why ChrisCoffee is saying that for home use, there is no difference between 15A and 20A. They are saying that the downtime is the same. Anyway, I would still convert the line I'm plugging in the Mini to a dedicated single line of 20A. I could just switch it to "Economy", if I need to. BTW, if you have 20A and switch it to "Economy" mode, which function shows that you are on "economy" mode? I think I don't see an "Econ" function on the Mini. I have the "water" function which alerts me if the water reservoir is empty. Any comment from Mini owners? Thanks.
zoey

Post by zoey »

before I made time to switch out the breakers
I'm assuming that you checked the wire ga. before doing this.

The reason I say this is I would hate to see someone think that they could simply switch from a 15A to a 20A breaker without any consideration for the wiring. Fire.....es no bueno.

p.s. I'm not an electrician but I'm good at shocking myself. :wink:
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

I'm assuming that you checked the wire ga. before doing this.

The reason I say this is I would hate to see someone think that they could simply switch from a 15A to a 20A breaker without any consideration for the wiring. Fire.....es no bueno.
Thanks for the concern. I understand the wire ga. for 20A is no. 12 and with the S1 or Mini on 20A, it should be a single dedicated line.
JP

Post by JP »

Aracel wrote:
Let's put it this way:
It's a dual boiler machine on 20A mode.
It's a single boiler machine on 15A.
Those who say it's fine on 15A either haven't tried it on 20A or they simply don't mind the down time. Some don't mind but it bothered me enough to switch out the breaker.
I think Niko you're right. I just don't understand why ChrisCoffee is saying that for home use, there is no difference between 15A and 20A. They are saying that the downtime is the same. Anyway, I would still convert the line I'm plugging in the Mini to a dedicated single line of 20A. I could just switch it to "Economy", if I need to. BTW, if you have 20A and switch it to "Economy" mode, which function shows that you are on "economy" mode? I think I don't see an "Econ" function on the Mini. I have the "water" function which alerts me if the water reservoir is empty. Any comment from Mini owners? Thanks.
OK Niko, I'll be the one who's never run it on 20 amps, to say it works fine on 15 amps. :wink: I've only had my VII for 3 of 4 weeks now and have not put a dedicated circuit in for it yet. I may put in a dedicated circuit eventually, but it's a 60' run from the breaker panel to the machine location, so it may be a while. :cry:

But anyways once warmed up there's no downtime on 15 amps that I can see. The biggest affect I notice is during initial warmup. Since the group heater takes priority over the steam boiler in 15 amp or economy mode, the steam tank does not begin to warm up until the group tank has finished heating up to temp. From cold turn on to both tanks being up to temp takes my machine about 25 minutes. I imagine on 20 amps this will be quicker.

Ok now. Once it's warmed up, I see no problem. When my steam tank is fully heated and up to pressure, it's got plenty of reserve. There's no waiting, even if the group tank heater kicks in which momentarily disables the steam tank heater, there's no affect because there's always plenty of steam pressure on tap to run continuously until the group is back up to temp and the steam boiler kicks back in. Or put more simply, no worries, no waiting, no problem.

The only thing I'll wait for is if the group tank heater kicks on before I'm gonna pull a shot I'll wait the few seconds for it to finish heating before I start. But since that heater always takes priority over the steam boiler, you'd be waiting just the same wether it's on 15 or 20 amps.

So the group boiler is never affected by the steam boiler and I've never seen a loss of steam pressure. What am I missing? I can't see a huge benefit for making a few caps at a time. Maybe if your making 12 or 20 caps in a row it will make a difference, but I haven't run into that yet and doubt I will. If you're only making espresso then your not even using the steam boiler and 15 amps is fine.

Please tell me if I'm missing something here.
Aracel

Post by Aracel »

So the group boiler is never affected by the steam boiler and I've never seen a loss of steam pressure. What am I missing? I can't see a huge benefit for making a few caps at a time. Maybe if your making 12 or 20 caps in a row it will make a difference, but I haven't run into that yet and doubt I will. If you're only making espresso then your not even using the steam boiler and 15 amps is fine
.

I have a 20A with 12ga wire but not a dedicated one. In other words, there are other kitchen appliances sharing the 20A circuit breaker. I tried switching the Mini to the 20A without using other household appliances just to test it. I noticed that with the 20A, I could brew and steam milk at the same time without affecting the temperature of the coffee. On the 15A, I could brew and steam milk at the same time but the temperature of the brewed coffee is affected. I think, it is because only one boiler is working; while with the 20A, two boilers are working at the same time. I just tried it once to see the difference aside from brewing maybe more than 6 or so caps back to back. I put it back to 15A until I wll have a dedicated 20A line for the Mini which I will be having soon hopefully this week. I hope others have the same experience or if you have different experience, I would like to know. Thanks.
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chas
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Post by chas »

JP wrote:
But anyways once warmed up there's no downtime on 15 amps that I can see. The biggest affect I notice is during initial warmup. Since the group heater takes priority over the steam boiler in 15 amp or economy mode, the steam tank does not begin to warm up until the group tank has finished heating up to temp. From cold turn on to both tanks being up to temp takes my machine about 25 minutes. I imagine on 20 amps this will be quicker.
You would be wrong. Even in 20A mode, from a cold start the boilers heat sequentially. When both boilers are on the unit is pulling close to 20A. From a cold start that means the unit would be pulling close to 20A for an extended period whereas once heated, the times when both boilers are on is very short. No doubt this is a safety measure by design.
Chas
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Richard

Post by Richard »

Aracel wrote:On the 15A, I could brew and steam milk at the same time but the temperature of the brewed coffee is affected.
If the temperature of the brewed coffee is in flux, it is for some reason other than running in 15- or 20-amp mode. You can shut the steam boiler complete OFF without affecting the brew boiler temperature.
JP

Post by JP »

chas wrote:You would be wrong. Even in 20A mode, from a cold start the boilers heat sequentially. When both boilers are on the unit is pulling close to 20A. From a cold start that means the unit would be pulling close to 20A for an extended period whereas once heated, the times when both boilers are on is very short. No doubt this is a safety measure by design.
OK, I wasn't aware of that. As I said I haven't yet had the pleasure of 20 amps. But what I believe your saying is initial warmup is going to occur group boiler first then steam boiler, wether your on 15 or 20 amps?

This was the only big difference I could think 20 amps could provide. But I guess what your telling me is it doesn't make a difference.
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Post by MDL »

15 versus 20 amp mode:

First, I have only run in 20 amp mode. However, my understanding is that when you first turn the machine on in 20 amp mode the brew boiler heats before the steam boiler starts. However, as soon as you get past the first heating of the brew boiler both can heat at the same time, and do so as they machine comes to equilibrium. I believe that in 20 amp mode you should get to equilibrium faster than in 15 amp.

In addition, clearly if you are making a lot of milk based drinks you are going to be able to keep up better in 20 amp mode since both boilers will be able to heat simultaneously.

In terms of wiring, I don't have a dedicated 20 amp circuit, but I know which other plugs are on the circuit and I don't use them in general and specifically I don't use them when the Vivaldi is being used.

The point is that the Vivaldi can draw close to 20 amps on its' own so you might blow a breaker if you have other things on the circuit.
JP

Post by JP »

Aracel wrote:On the 15A, I could brew and steam milk at the same time but the temperature of the brewed coffee is affected. I think, it is because only one boiler is working
The boilers are independent of each other, the steam boiler can not take heat from the group boiler. And yes only one boiler will work at a time on 15 amps, but the group boiler always takes priority. The group boiler will come on instantly, any time it's temperature drops, the steam boiler will be disabled any time the group boiler needs to come on. So the brew temp should never be affected by the steam boiler.
JP

Post by JP »

MDL wrote:clearly if you are making a lot of milk based drinks you are going to be able to keep up better in 20 amp mode since both boilers will be able to heat simultaneously.
I agree fully with that, but my argument is for low volume it works fine. Now if I was making 60 cappuccinos at a time like Niko then 20 amps would be required. :wink: I only make one or sometimes two at a time so in my case the machine is always ready and waiting for me on 15 amps.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

JP wrote:
I agree fully with that, but my argument is for low volume it works fine. Now if I was making 60 cappuccinos at a time like Niko then 20 amps would be required. :wink: I only make one or sometimes two at a time so in my case the machine is always ready and waiting for me on 15 amps.
If you are only steaming small amounts of milk you might not notice but if I'm making 2-4 lattes for company having that steam boiler on as needed is important. Also my 20A machine takes nowhere near 25 minutes to bring both boilers up to temp.
JP

Post by JP »

JohnB wrote:If you are only steaming small amounts of milk you might not notice but if I'm making 2-4 lattes for company having that steam boiler on as needed is important.
Yes I am only steaming small amounts, like 4 Oz at a time. Tonight I made 2 caps for company and then after a few minutes made 2 more. No problem, it has more than enough steam for what i do.

Also my 20A machine takes nowhere near 25 minutes to bring both boilers up to temp.
I have never timed mine exactly, but I do think it's ready in about 20 minutes, but I say 25 to be safe. I know I turn it on every morning before I shower and it's ready when I come out. I have wanted to time it but I have never waited around to time it. I usually turn it on and go do other things and come back later and it's ready.

I'm not knocking 20 amps, I may eventually run a new circuit for mine, but I'm just trying to say it works very well and there's no big hang up for normal (few cups at a time) home use, running on 15 amps.
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

JP wrote: Now if I was making 60 cappuccinos at a time like Niko then 20 amps would be required. :wink: .
speaking of, where the hell is Niko????? :|
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chas
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Post by chas »

Do you suppose his wife made him switch to decaf :shock:
Chas
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RobertK

Post by RobertK »

In terms of wiring, I don't have a dedicated 20 amp circuit, but I know which other plugs are on the circuit and I don't use them in general and specifically I don't use them when the Vivaldi is being used.

The point is that the Vivaldi can draw close to 20 amps on its' own so you might blow a breaker if you have other things on the circuit.
So, how important is it to have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit for the one receptacle into which the Vivaldi will be plugged? My home is fairly new and the kitchen is wired with 20 Amp lines, but the circuits are shared among several receptacles with other appliances plugged into them. What are the risks of running the machine in 20 amp mode on a non-dedicated circuit? Would I just have to go out to the breaker box and flip the switch on the breaker if it trips? Would it trip the GFCI on the receptacle?

The circuit I'm thinking of using contains two receptacles - one is never used :D - plus the gas stove (electric fan and light in the fume hood, and the electric clickers that start the flames when you turn on a burner). The other receptacle on the circuit does get used regularly for charging up the battery on the laptop computer and cell phone; not sure how much current the battery chargers and the stove draw.

I do plan on calling an electrician for a professional opinion and to see about maybe converting that unused outlet to a dedicated circuit, so none of you will be held liable for sharing your thoughts!

Thanks,
Robert
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

When you call your electrician give him the 2200wt rating of the machine, my guess is he will suggest a separate circuit as that is high even for a 20A line. That said you will seldom see the machine drawing that much juice & you can always leave the stove fan off when the machine is on so its your call.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

chas wrote:Do you suppose his wife made him switch to decaf :shock:
No Niko posts in 2 weeks! Is that a record?
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

JohnB wrote:
chas wrote:Do you suppose his wife made him switch to decaf :shock:
No Niko posts in 2 weeks! Is that a record?
John,

I know- I hope he's ok - it's not the same without him around here. I hope he didn't OD on caffeine and zoom off to mars!
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Post by chas »

I checked recent Bay Area obituaries and didn't find anything. :angel5:
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RobertK

Post by RobertK »

Where did you get 2200 watts? The specs listed at Chris Coffee says 1250 watts for the steam boiler and 800 for the group boiler, that's 2050. Where do the other 150 watts come from? The pump?

Thanks, Robert

P.S. I'm actually getting a Mini, not a regular V2. Anyone know if the vibe pump draws more or less current than the rotary pump?
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

If you remove the drip tray there is a voltage decal stuck to the inside of the right side cover. On the S1 V2 the wattage is listed at 2200 & no doubt the pump is part of that. Ideally you shouldn't be drawing more then 80% of your rated amperage on a circuit. The S1 is well over that figure all by itself if everything is running.
RobertK

Post by RobertK »

OK, thanks for that. My electrician said it would be difficult to switch over one of the outlets in my kitchen to a dedicated circuit. I guess I'll just have to hope it doesn't overload the circuit, and if it does I'll have to run it in economy mode.
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Post by MDL »

I have been running my Vivaldi on a 20 amp circuit that is not dedicated for over a year. Now, I try to have nothing else on the circuit (actually the grinder is the only thing that is regularly plugged in). I have never had any trouble. I believe that some of the other posters to this forum have measured the draw of a Vivaldi although I don't remember who or which section the postings were in.

In my view, and this is just my opinion, it is more important to have a 20 amp circuit than for that circuit to be dedicated. I would certainly not put anything that draws significant current onto the same circuit (no toasters or microwave ovens). In my kitchen this has been easy. In others it may be more of a challenge.

Good luck...
zoey

Post by zoey »

OK, thanks for that. My electrician said it would be difficult to switch over one of the outlets in my kitchen to a dedicated circuit.
The majority of the lines are piggybacked together (as evidenced by the one or two kitchen breakers you will have in your electrical box).

If you were to run a dedicated breaker, you would have to run an entirely new line from the breaker box to the desired outlet. Depending on where your kitchen is in relation to your breaker box, it may or may not be difficult.
RobertK

Post by RobertK »

Zoey,
It is a long way from the breaker box to the kitchen, and access would be difficult. I checked and there is very little else that would compete with the machine for power; most of the other outlets on the circuit are rarely or never used, and its already wired for 20 amps, so I think I'll be OK. I just have to swap out a standard 3-prong receptacle for the one with the funny plug for the Mini.
Thanks,
Robert
Jake

Post by Jake »

I have the 20 amp Spaz and it is hooked into a circuit that also runs the fridge and I have not had any problems. However, I am going to run a heavy duty cord and get rid of the present hookup.

The circuit I'm tying into will be the disposal. Running the disposal and Spaz at the same time will be, hmmm, none existent.

I'm using CC adapter cord at this time--$12 for "no work" fix. But, like I said, this temporary fix will be gone this weekend.

Jake
RobertK

Post by RobertK »

I was told by Mary at Chris' Coffee not to run the machine in 20A mode with the conversion cord. The wire in the CC is only rated for 15A and is only intended to be used with the machine in 15A mode.
zoey

Post by zoey »

You don't want the cord heating up/catching fire.
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

RobertK wrote:I was told by Mary at Chris' Coffee not to run the machine in 20A mode with the conversion cord. The wire in the CC is only rated for 15A and is only intended to be used with the machine in 15A mode.
hmm, interesting. Which wire are you talking about? I was told that I could run my 15amp in 20amp mode by just flipping the switch and plugging it into a 20 amp outlet. (and changing the plug to a 20 amp plug as well).
RobertK

Post by RobertK »

She told me that the machines all come over from Italy as 20A machines with a nice molded 20A plug. They used to cut the plug off and replace it with a standard 3-prong plug when people ordered the 15A model. What they do now is leave the 20A plug in place and sell you a short converter cord for $11.95 if you want to run it in 15A mode on a standard outlet. That way you still have the original plug in case you ever want to use it. The wire in the converter cord is only rated at 15A, and if you use it with the machine in 20A mode it could overload the wire in the CC and create a fire hazard. So, if you want to run it in 20A mode you need to have the type of outlet that will accept the stock 20A plug.

Sounds like you got your machine before they changed over to selling the $12 converter cord.

HTH
BigMike

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by BigMike »

I know this is an (somewhat) old thread, but I thought it would be important to mention anyway:

NEC code requires the use of a GFCI circuit in a kitchen environment.

No, I'm not a housing inspector, I'm just seriously concerned about safety, and not being in violation of the electrical code when in the future I attempt to sell my house.

Do it right the first time!

Food for thought,
Mike
RobertK

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by RobertK »

Hi Mike,

I definitely did it right the first time - I had unanticipated snags with both my power and water supplies and my Vivaldi sat in its box for 3 weeks while I got everything properly set up. It was torture!

Fortunately, it turned out that I had a 20 amp circuit (breaker and correct gauge wire) with 15 amp outlets, so all I had to do was install a 20 amp GFCI outlet in the kitchen, which is shared by the Vivaldi and the grinder. It is not a dedicated circuit, but the other outlets on the circuit barely get used so it is a non-issue.

The water supply turned out to be more complicated, but it was all worth the wait - my Vivaldi rocks and I love it!

Thanks,
Robert
BigMike

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by BigMike »

IIRC, the NEC code states that outlets cannot be mixed. Meaning, you cannot have (4) 15 amp and (1) 20 amp outlet installed on the same circuit, regardless of the wire guage or circuit breaker size. The only saving grace is that it is very easy to swap out an outlet if a bldg inspector were to catch it.

Mike
RobertK

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by RobertK »

Can you explain why that is stated? Mine has 2 20A outlets and 4 15A outlets on the same circuit. The 15s almost never get used.
JohnB

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by JohnB »

RobertK wrote:Can you explain why that is stated? Mine has 2 20A outlets and 4 15A outlets on the same circuit. The 15s almost never get used.
What's on the other 20A outlet? If both boilers & the pump run at the same time you will pretty much max out your 20A breaker. I ran a dedicated 20A line for my S1V2.
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
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Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by MDL »

The electrical code is trying to keep things safe by preventing any chance of having 15A wire or components on a circuit that is actually drawing 20A.

Don't confuse code requirements for the current you need to run your Vivaldi. It is a good idea to have little else (if anything) on the circuit with your Vivaldi because of the current that it can draw if both boilers and the pump are all on (or starting). Although there are additional outlets on the circuit that I use for my machine I don't have anything else plugged in except for my espresso grinder and the grinder never runs while the pump is running (I don't have enough hands to run both at the same time).
RobertK

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by RobertK »

There is nothing running off the other 20A outlet. The 15A outlets on the same circuit rarely get used, maybe for a vacuum cleaner once in a while but never at the same time as the Vivaldi, and there never has been a problem. Just wondering why there might be a problem having 15 and 20 amp outlets on the same circuit, but it sounds like in this case there isn't one.
RK
BigMike

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by BigMike »

I'm recalling this from memory:

any circuit, regardless of amperage, has a calculation that establishes the maximum # of outlets. This calculation is either for 15 or 20 amp, and does not allow the calculation to be adjusted for a single (or multiple) outlets of a different amperage.

Also, you cannot have 50 15 amp outlets, regardless of the fact that you are only using 1 at a time. The point of the code is, someone could plug into all 50 outlets, and then I'd hate to see the fireball that would ensue.

I'm not telling anyone what they should, or should not do. But for the safety of you and your loved ones, the NEC does exist for obvious reasons.

IMHO, it's better safe than sorry.

Again, I'm not an electrician, so I have no financial gain by mentioning this.

Mike
RobertK

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by RobertK »

Well, I had an electrician install the 20A outlets for me and he said that what I was doing was fine, and it is working just fine, so I'm not going to worry about it any more.
Thanks and good luck.
Richard

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by Richard »

BigMike wrote:Also, you cannot have 50 15 amp outlets, regardless of the fact that you are only using 1 at a time. The point of the code is, someone could plug into all 50 outlets, and then I'd hate to see the fireball that would ensue.
With the proper circuit breaker(s), not a safety issue, and no fireball. Just a tripped breaker. Not practical, but not unsafe.
BigMike

Re: 15 amp vs 20 amp

Post by BigMike »

Richard wrote:
BigMike wrote:Also, you cannot have 50 15 amp outlets, regardless of the fact that you are only using 1 at a time. The point of the code is, someone could plug into all 50 outlets, and then I'd hate to see the fireball that would ensue.
With the proper circuit breaker(s), not a safety issue, and no fireball. Just a tripped breaker. Not practical, but not unsafe.
Richard, what you are suggesting could be dangerous.

I agree, a correctly functioning circuit breaker should open. However, circuit breakers can, and do fail. When they do fail, there is probability of a fire.

I don't want to start a argument...

...whatever you are comfortable with.

Let's all enjoy some espresso!

Mike
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