Pre-purchase questions

[chrisd]

Hello Vivaldi-lovers

Long-time reader posting for the first time, perhaps because only now there's enough money to actually make buying a Vivaldi of my own a realistic option. Inevitably I have some questions, though, and I thought you all would be in the position best to answer them...

Currently I'm using a Clever Coffee dripper to make drinks, though I did have a Krups superautomatic many years back (that seized up and which Krups wanted ridiculous money to repaire). A Vario arrived last week, and I've been marvelling at its consistency. I've been eyeing the S1 for years, not least because it's a whole lot more "modern" looking than most E61-based machines. No offense to their many aficionados, but it's not the look for me.

There are a couple of questions/issues still holding me back:

1. Maintenance. I've read everything I can on maintaining not just a Vivaldi but an espresso machine in general, and now I'm scared! I'm not technically inept (I can change plugs, build a PC, put together an Ikea kitchen, etc) but I'm also not a plumber. Obviously any complex machine like a Vivaldi demands some TLC, but the thought of things like dismantling boilers and brew heads gives me pause for thought. What sort of maintenance schedule would I be committing to, and how complex would it be?

2. Plumb vs Pour. When I first started looking, only the original plumb version was on sale. Since then, of course, there's been the Mini, and it seems like plenty of owners are happy with it. I'm currently renting (in London, UK, so smallish kitchens!) and the idea of a pour-over has appeal. However, talking to Steve of Hasbean (who I would probably buy the machine from) he's decidedly not a fan of the Mini, and - having had complaints and returns - no longer sources them for buyers, recommending only the VII.

I trust Steve's opinion (I know he has a VII in his own kitchen at home) and I do see the benefits of plumbed-in. Renting, though, I'd probably have to look at putting a VII on its own kitchen trolley and likely go the Flojet/big tank of water route, which would be a whole lot less elegant than the Mini. I also have concerns over London water, so would need some sort of filtration/softening plan if I wasn't to bankrupt myself buying bottled water. Is the vibe pump and other design decisions of the Mini really such a compromise, to the point where it's a bad idea to go for that machine rather than the VII (with its own compromises in my sort of situation)?

I love coffee - espresso, latte, cappuccino - and the Vivaldi seems the perfect machine for me (okay, it's probably a luxury, but I can afford it right now and I don't feel like making myself feel guilty over that!). I'm also lucky enough to work from home, so it could keep me company during the day, too Question is, am I letting my gear-lust blind me, and - taking into account the concerns and issues already mentioned - would I be better off sticking with my simple dripper and living my espresso life vicariously through you all?

Sorry, wrote more than I intended to, so thanks to all who made it this far. I know you're all going to be biased in favour of the Vivaldi, but I've also seen you collectively give enough advice to believe you wouldn't lead someone down an ill-advised path for the sake of gaining another member of the owners-club!

Chris

[Endo]

Unless you are willing to spend $6K+, the Vivaldi and Duetto2 are your only choices for now (except for the Breville ). If you don't want chrome, then the Vivaldi is your only choice.

Don't worry about maintenance. It seems overwhelming inside at first glance, but it becomes really simple once you remove the panels and get familiar with it.

If you can afford the extra $400 and want plumbed in, get the regular Vivaldi. Get the Mini if you need pourover and can live with 1 cup of hot water every minute.

I've never heard of any "issues" with the Mini that are not shared by the regular Vivaldi (except for the occasional reservoir float problem and a bit of rust on the boiler drains when they were first installed). Can you ask Hasbean Steve to clarify? Perhaps someone from Chris Coffee will also comment?

[slo]

Hello Chris.

Do not worry about maintenance at all. It just looks a bit complicated at first but it is really a simple machine overall. If you can build a computer and Ikea kitchen, you more than qualify. Whenever there will be something to do there will plenty of people willing to assist.

Pour over is the easiest for apartment. If I were in an apartment I would have probably made that choice. But then I hate filling the reservoir and emptying the tray!!! So plumbed in was really the way to go for me. There are a few other benefit like the pre-infusion, rotary pump, adjustable steam control, plenty of steam and hot water, but I believe that the choice is really about plumbed in convenience (or hassle) or pour over convenience (or hassle)?

[Endo]

By the way, since you mentioned the Clever Coffee dripper......

I must say, it is currently my favourite coffee method (outside of espresso). I used to use it exclusively for the office, but now I use it whenever I want drip. By allowing control of infusion time like a french press, followed by the V60 style drip, you get some AMAZING coffee with this thing (and no grounds either).

Sorry, didn't mean to steer you away from the Vivaldi.

[Louis]

Unless you are willing to spend $6K+, the Vivaldi and Duetto2 are your only choices for now (except for the Breville ).

Not anymore. There is another choice, the new Vibiemme Double Domobar Super: http://www.espressocare.com/VibiemmeMain.html

[peter]

Part of me wants to say that if you're satisfied with your coffee world as it stands now and the Clever rings your bells, you would be wise to leave well enough alone. There's a lot to be said for keeping life simple where you can. That then begs the question, "What would I have done a year ago, knowing what I know now?" I was in your position at the time; I had the funds and even though I my coffee world was a beautiful place I wanted to explore the world of espresso. I don't regret it, and don't think you will either. But one of my favorite axioms comes to mind; interrogate your intentions and interests.

We've heard other renters pondering plumb-in or pour-over. I think the real issue is not that you're renting, but where the machine would be placed in relation to an available water line, and if there would be space for the filter housing. It would be relatively simple to tap into the cold water pipe with what we call a saddle valve here. It clamps around the pipe and then a piercing valve is screwed down so that it pierces the pipe. It looks a bit like a tee. Then when you move, you would simply disconnect the line to the filter/S1, and close the valve. Plumbing a drain on the drip tray is wonderfully convenient, but not a 'must-have'.

I'd echo the others with regard to maintenance. Six months into owning my S1 it developed a problem that had me laying awake at night. But with some help here and from Chris' I saw that it was only because it was something I hadn't done before. Not that I'm an expert repairman now, but having opened it up and successfully repaired the problem, I now understand some of the basic principals of an espresso machine and the path the water takes. That cleared things up, once I understood the flow of water.

Hope that helps.

[chrisd]

Thanks for all the opinions, guys! As is perhaps inevitable, I now have a second round of questions

I've never heard of any "issues" with the Mini that are not shared by the regular Vivaldi (except for the occasional reservoir float problem and a bit of rust on the boiler drains when they were first installed). Can you ask Hasbean Steve to clarify? Perhaps someone from Chris Coffee will also comment?

Looking back at Steve's original email about the Mini, he says that because of the Mini's user-experience he's ended up with "unhappy customers" and that he wouldn't recommend a vibe pump at this price point. That's why he won't sell them any more. It did seem somewhat at odds with what I've read from forums (here and elsewhere) but obviously Steve knows far more about all this than I do!

Do not worry about maintenance at all. It just looks a bit complicated at first but it is really a simple machine overall. If you can build a computer and Ikea kitchen, you more than qualify. Whenever there will be something to do there will plenty of people willing to assist.

Pour over is the easiest for apartment. If I were in an apartment I would have probably made that choice. But then I hate filling the reservoir and emptying the tray!!! So plumbed in was really the way to go for me. There are a few other benefit like the pre-infusion, rotary pump, adjustable steam control, plenty of steam and hot water, but I believe that the choice is really about plumbed in convenience (or hassle) or pour over convenience (or hassle)?

I've been trying to find a "schedule of works" for the Vivaldi - basically, a list of what regular maintenance is involved and how frequently I should expect to do it - but I can't seem to find one. I'm thinking "Group head clean every X days; Boiler descale every X months; etc" just to give me a better idea of how often I'll have the side panels off and be up to my elbows in pipework!

By the way, since you mentioned the Clever Coffee dripper......

I must say, it is currently my favourite coffee method (outside of espresso). I used to use it exclusively for the office, but now I use it whenever I want drip. By allowing control of infusion time like a french press, followed by the V60 style drip, you get some AMAZING coffee with this thing (and no grounds either).

Sorry, didn't mean to steer you away from the Vivaldi.

I love the Clever too; I used to use either a french press or a regular drip-cone, and it's a big improvement on both. Tinkering with the infusion and timing on the Clever is part of what makes me think an espresso machine is for me! It's time to take the hobby to the next (infinitely more expensive and addictive!) level...

There is another choice, the new Vibiemme Double Domobar Super: http://www.espressocare.com/VibiemmeMain.html

I'm talking to a biased audience, I know, but is it just me or is this not as stylishly handsome a machine as the Vivaldi?

Part of me wants to say that if you're satisfied with your coffee world as it stands now and the Clever rings your bells, you would be wise to leave well enough alone. There's a lot to be said for keeping life simple where you can. That then begs the question, "What would I have done a year ago, knowing what I know now?" I was in your position at the time; I had the funds and even though I my coffee world was a beautiful place I wanted to explore the world of espresso. I don't regret it, and don't think you will either. But one of my favorite axioms comes to mind; interrogate your intentions and interests.

We've heard other renters pondering plumb-in or pour-over. I think the real issue is not that you're renting, but where the machine would be placed in relation to an available water line, and if there would be space for the filter housing. It would be relatively simple to tap into the cold water pipe with what we call a saddle valve here. It clamps around the pipe and then a piercing valve is screwed down so that it pierces the pipe. It looks a bit like a tee. Then when you move, you would simply disconnect the line to the filter/S1, and close the valve. Plumbing a drain on the drip tray is wonderfully convenient, but not a 'must-have'.

I'd echo the others with regard to maintenance. Six months into owning my S1 it developed a problem that had me laying awake at night. But with some help here and from Chris' I saw that it was only because it was something I hadn't done before. Not that I'm an expert repairman now, but having opened it up and successfully repaired the problem, I now understand some of the basic principals of an espresso machine and the path the water takes. That cleared things up, once I understood the flow of water.

Hope that helps.

The saddle valve is an idea I'd looked at - also, at the nifty "Max Adapter" Chris Coffee sells (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... maxadaptor) and which I could hopefully screw in-line with the sink water feed and then remove it later with no trace it was there (assuming I didn't flood the kitchen in the process, and that I could find the equivalent part in the UK). I can definitely see the appeal of a plumbed-in water feed, even though the Mini's self-containedness is also appealing. We're moving apartment next month, and so I'll have to look and see if there's a route I could run a pipe from under the sink to where a Vivaldi might sit.

I think you hit my maintenance concerns on the head - it's just from not really understanding what's going on inside "the magic box." I swing from thinking "oh god, if I break it somehow it will be a nightmare" to "if it breaks, and I can't fix it, there'll be someone who can." Not that I talk to myself a lot, mind

Life would be a lot easier if I stuck with the Clever dripper, but then it would also be home-espresso-free. Currently I'm hypnotised whenever I'm in a cafe, watching them pull shots and steam milk, and wishing I could leap behind the counter and get involved. My "old" hobby was tech and gadgets, and then I got a job working with them every day and it kind of "ate" my hobby! So perhaps learning how to make a great shot, and how to keep a fancy machine up and running, and getting a tasty drink in the process is a perfect "new" hobby to cultivate

Again, thanks for all your advice everybody, really really appreciated!

Chris

[Endo]

Looking back at Steve's original email about the Mini, he says that because of the Mini's user-experience he's ended up with "unhappy customers" and that he wouldn't recommend a vibe pump at this price point. That's why he won't sell them any more. It did seem somewhat at odds with what I've read from forums (here and elsewhere) but obviously Steve knows far more about all this than I do!

I've heard this type of argument before from retailers. Often it's simply because they want to sell a limited number of machines (for floor space reasons, etc) and don't want product overlap. For example, my local retailer wouldn't stock the QM Anita because the Andjrea did the same thing and only cost a bit more. More often than not, they just get an idea in their heads (vibe pump = cheap, for example), and can't get it out.

Often, the consumers are smarter than the retailers!

Case in point....watch the latest Seattle Coffee gear videos where all the employees tell their favourite double boiler and grinder.....the winner....NS Musica (not a DB) and the Rancilio Rocky ! HAHAHAHA

[chrisd]

I've heard this type of argument before from retailers. Often it's simply because they want to sell a limited number of machines (for floor space reasons, etc) and don't want product overlap. For example, my local retailer wouldn't stock the QM Anita because the Andjrea did the same thing and only cost a bit more. More often than not, they just get an idea in their heads (vibe pump = cheap, for example), and can't get it out.

Often, the consumers are smarter than the retailers!

Case in point....watch the latest Seattle Coffee gear videos where all the employees tell their favourite double boiler and grinder.....the winner....NS Musica (not a DB) and the Rancilio Rocky ! HAHAHAHA

Interesting. AFAIK, Steve doesn't hold either the VII or Mini in stock, but orders them as and when requests come in. Still, I can definitely see where people would get ideas about vibe vs rotary and then that becomes gospel, even if it's not necessarily always true.

Chris

[Louis]

There is another choice, the new Vibiemme Double Domobar Super: http://www.espressocare.com/VibiemmeMain.html

I'm talking to a biased audience, I know, but is it just me or is this not as stylishly handsome a machine as the Vivaldi?

I own a Vivaldi and certainly won't complain about it!

OTOH, the Vibiemme are really well built. They use the original E61 design (not a copy, they own the patent) with a well calibrated thermosyphon. The newest redesign (dual config: reservoir/plumbed-in, boilers size, thermal stability, power management, preheating heat exchanger, ability to use a regular timer compared to the La Spaziale proprietary/costly solution) makes it a very interesting contender. Apart from the look, you should note that they only offer a semi-automatic version. If the volumetric capability of full-automatics is something you want, the Vivaldi would be a better choice (even if this feature is most often not used when trying to pull good shots).

[slo]

If the volumetric capability of full-automatics is something you want, the Vivaldi would be a better choice (even if this feature is most often not used when trying to pull good shots).

I have to disagree with that last statement. The ability to rely on the machine, when a coffee is well dialed in, to cut the shot at the appropriate time is extremely useful to me. This feature allows me, when preparing multiple shots, to setup the following shot and/or steam milk without the need to look at the shot or to have to stand in front of the machine.

[GDK]

I find auto dosing very useful when I make my morning coffee. It is useful for multiple shots and when you are in a hurry.

I have the mini now, but if I had to do it again, I would probably consider the plumbed version for convenience. The tank should at least give you the current level or early warning as opposed to the unexpected red light. It would have been nice if the Vivaldi can be converted like the Alex Duetto, for example. Initially I wanted to be in control on what type of water goes in and also was not sure if I was to change machine location with time. Turns out municipal water in Ottawa is soft and can be plumbed with no softener required.

[chrisd]

OTOH, the Vibiemme are really well built. They use the original E61 design (not a copy, they own the patent) with a well calibrated thermosyphon. The newest redesign (dual config: reservoir/plumbed-in, boilers size, thermal stability, power management, preheating heat exchanger, ability to use a regular timer compared to the La Spaziale proprietary/costly solution) makes it a very interesting contender. Apart from the look, you should note that they only offer a semi-automatic version. If the volumetric capability of full-automatics is something you want, the Vivaldi would be a better choice (even if this feature is most often not used when trying to pull good shots).

The Vibiemme are obviously very proficient machines, but they just don't have the same geeky allure to me as the Vivaldi does. They make me think of old plumbing, whereas there's something a bit Star Trek about the S1

I have to disagree with that last statement. The ability to rely on the machine, when a coffee is well dialed in, to cut the shot at the appropriate time is extremely useful to me. This feature allows me, when preparing multiple shots, to setup the following shot and/or steam milk without the need to look at the shot or to have to stand in front of the machine.

Being able to set up a one-press serving will also go down well with my better-half, too! Not a great coffee drinker, but on those odd occasions I could see the response being "all that money and you still have to turn the water on and off yourself?!"

I find auto dosing very useful when I make my morning coffee. It is useful for multiple shots and when you are in a hurry.

I have the mini now, but if I had to do it again, I would probably consider the plumbed version for convenience. It would have been nice if the Vivaldi can be converted like the Alex Duetto, for example.

Definitely, being switchable between the two would be a real boon. I'm hoping I'll move into our new place next month, open the cupboard under the sink and find a joyous arrangement of pipes and a convenient place to route a feed out to a plumbed Vivaldi!

Chris

[JonF]

Greetings! I spent months looking over the reviews and specs before going with a Vivaldi S1 (plumbed) to replace my 15 year old Pasquini Livia 90. I have been really happy with the change. Along with the obvious differences and improved heat control, I have been surprised at . . .
1. How much I like having it plumbed in. [In your situation I probably have went mini]
2. How much I like the timer. Sure, it's expensive, but it is integrated into the programming. So you can override at any time with the keypad. I have it set to come on a 05:45 and off at 10:00. Typically I shut it off after breakfast, but if I forget, I know it will go off. When I get home, I can turn it on with the main keypad.
3. How nice it is to easily turn the steam boiler on and off. I typically steam one milk for my wife in the AM, then switch to espresso for the rest of the day.
4. How good the hot-water dispener works for my AM Americano.
5. The Vivaldi's have a slightly lower height than many of the other options, which helps a lot in my kitchen.
6. Cleaning: Wow, big change from my HX Livia 90. The residue is just not baked on at such a high temp, so cleaning the screens is WAY easier.
7. Autodosing: I actually like this. I set the single cup with just enough flow to do an automatic backflush with my blind filter, and then set the two-cup to deliver just under 3 oz for an Americano or a Latte. Again, you can easily override for a serious espresso.

[chrisd]

Greetings! I spent months looking over the reviews and specs before going with a Vivaldi S1 (plumbed) to replace my 15 year old Pasquini Livia 90. I have been really happy with the change. Along with the obvious differences and improved heat control, I have been surprised at . . .
1. How much I like having it plumbed in. [In your situation I probably have went mini]
2. How much I like the timer. Sure, it's expensive, but it is integrated into the programming. So you can override at any time with the keypad. I have it set to come on a 05:45 and off at 10:00. Typically I shut it off after breakfast, but if I forget, I know it will go off. When I get home, I can turn it on with the main keypad.
3. How nice it is to easily turn the steam boiler on and off. I typically steam one milk for my wife in the AM, then switch to espresso for the rest of the day.
4. How good the hot-water dispener works for my AM Americano.
5. The Vivaldi's have a slightly lower height than many of the other options, which helps a lot in my kitchen.
6. Cleaning: Wow, big change from my HX Livia 90. The residue is just not baked on at such a high temp, so cleaning the screens is WAY easier.
7. Autodosing: I actually like this. I set the single cup with just enough flow to do an automatic backflush with my blind filter, and then set the two-cup to deliver just under 3 oz for an Americano or a Latte. Again, you can easily override for a serious espresso.

Thanks for the feedback, JonF! I can tell you really love your Vivaldi

I'm definitely leaning toward plumbed-in if I can manage it. With the state of London water I'd be going through in-tank filter systems at a rate of knots, if I went for the Mini; alternatively I could either buy bottled water (expensive!) or filter it separately, which would probably end up being as cluttered as a plumbed system with a flojet and tank. I'm crossing my fingers that our new place has somewhere I can route a pipe from under the sink, but we don't get the keys until July 11 - the waiting is driving me crazy!

I was undecided about the timer, so it's interesting to hear you think it's definitely worth it. Will have to see who can supply it in the UK and just how much it is...

Chris