Would You Reconsider the Vivaldi if...?

[johnnyboy5]

Hi all. I have done a ton of research on getting a new machine, and just as I had made up my mind to get the VII, I find out that the LM GS3 is now selling for under $4500, vs. the original price of around $7K. Granted, this is still double the price of a VII, but I just have to ask-if budget were not an issue (but getting good value is) and you had the choice between the Vivaldi at around $2K and the GS3 at around $4500, which would you choose (and why)?

[Weska]

I've never tasted an espresso that's twice as good as what comes out of my Vivaldi (and seldom can find any that are superior by any degree). That means to me that value favors the Vivaldi. And the machine has been a very reliable one for nearly three years of daily use. I would have to believe that the GS3 is markedly easier to use, wildly less fussy or some such thing to make me think otherwise.

It would be much easier to sell me on a grinder upgrade than any alternative to the Vivaldi, although I'm not unhappy with what I've got.

Has your research turned up any suggestion that the GS3 is vastly more user-friendly than the Vivaldi?

[johnnyboy5]

Yes, I hear you on the value point. Interestingly, there are no comparisons of the two machines (that I can find), and in fact, they aren't even really discussed together, as the GS3 seems to be regarded as the gold standard for home use, and while the Vivaldi is no doubt very highly regarded, it's simply not seen as being in the same class. Maybe it has to do with better overall build quality, maybe ease of use, and I'm sure a lot of snobbery over having the best. I was on the CG GS3 owner's thread yesterday and asked the question as to whether or not you can turn off the steam boiuler only on the GS3, as you can on the VII. The answer is apparently no. So we're left with two machines, both from highly regarded manufacturers, both DB, very easy to use and make consistently great coffee. That leaves me a little confused as to why the huge premium for the GS3. IMHO, the GS3 is a better looking macjhine, and looks more solidly built, but the VII is also pretty good. I would never even consider paying $7k for the GS3 given my moderate useage, but at $4,500, it made me stop and think about it. Any other thoughts out there? I believe Chas who started this forum now has a GS3. I'd be interested in his thoughts on comparing the two.

[David23]

I think when one starts to consider a machine like the GS3, Speedster or Synesso etc., one is looking at more than just the function of the "machine". There is a certain aesthetic to owning and using a machine that has the refinement and elegance that this level of unit posesses. There is a level of pride and satisfaction in the ownership of a GS3 or Speedster that goes beyond how one feels about owning a more "typical" machine. I may be wrong, but in terms of purely objective espresso taste, for most people, I can't imagine the extra cost of any of the elite machines is warranted. However, in terms of "wanting" one of the elite machines, for some people, I suspect the cost is more than justified by owning a machine that gives such personal joy and satisfaction. "Value" has to be determined by the individual, you won't find the answer by asking others.

All that said, I'd own one in a heartbeat if I could swing it.

[JohnB]

I think worrying about value when you are considering a $4500 espresso machine for home use is kind of silly. The S1V2 is obviously the value choice between the two but then no one needs to spend $2000+ to get good espresso at home either. I was surprised to see that the steam boiler on the GS3 could not be turned off but it makes sense considering that it will run full bore on a 15A circuit. They are obviously using smaller heating elements then you would typically see in boilers that size & depending on the HX to keep the brew boiler up to temp. It seems to work well but the trade off is that you are always heating 3 litres of water that you might not have any use for. With the heat & humidity we've had this past week it was nice to not have the steam boiler running in our kitchen.

The GS3 offers a few features that the S1V2 doesn't like a self cleaning cycle but unless you spring for the optional $200 steam wand the S1 has better quality steam & IMHO a better pre infusion system. The S1V2 is quieter & does not have the vibration issues of the GS3. No need to insulate your cups with a rubber/silicone mat as some GS3 owners have done. Considering how many buyers have had to have their GS3 sorted out by their local supplier or deal with the issues themselves I would question the better build quality. It certainly has the look of better quality but way too many unsorted issues to justify that claim.

What the GS3 offers aside from bragging rights is the LM grouphead & 3/10°F brew temp selection which "may" give you better espresso then you would get from the S1V2 if you know what you are doing. I seriously doubt the GS3 is any easier to use then the S1V2, in fact with the manual PID settings it may require a little more thought then just pushing a temp button.

The real question is: Which machine are you going to be happy with?? If you buy the S1V2 are you always going to be wishing you'd bought a GS3? If so then buy it & quit worrying about "value".

[JohnB]

I think when one starts to consider a machine like the GS3, Speedster or Synesso etc., one is looking at more than just the function of the "machine". There is a certain aesthetic to owning and using a machine that has the refinement and elegance that this level of unit posesses. There is a level of pride and satisfaction in the ownership of a GS3 or Speedster that goes beyond how one feels about owning a more "typical" machine. .

That should be the case but unfortunately the GS3 has yet to demonstrate the level of "refinement" that you would expect of a hand built machine in this price range. The Speedster will be in a class of its own until LM gets its act together & starts shipping fully sorted GS3s from the factory.

[David23]

Yes John, you are probably right. Perhaps I should have written : ".......that this level of unit is PERCEIVED to possess."

[johnnyboy5]

Thx for your thoughts guys. David 23, I think you hit the nail on the head with your reply. It doesn't seem to be about value, but more about owning the (alleged) best and as you say, having bragging rights (which I'm not opposed to!). Also, John B., regarding your thoughts on build quality, I have read way too much on this issue and if you judge by the posts on CG and HB, the GS3 seems to have way more "issues" than the Vivaldi, and that's important to me because I'm not very mechanically inclined, and will not constantly tinker with the machine, as I know many of you do. Lot's of issues for $5-7k. One point of clarification-it would be the Mini VII i would be getting as I can't plumb in for a variety of reasons. This means I would be getting a vibe pump in the Vivaldi vs. a rotary in the GS3. Does this change your views?

[JohnB]

I suppose it would "if" price was not a consideration. Of course you have to find a reliable vendor to sell you a GS3 for $4500 to make it a reality.

[johnnyboy5]

Yes, I can get it from Chris Coffee, but that's complicated and more expensive, as I'm in Toronto, Canada. Canadian price is probably closer to $5,500 (CDN).

[JohnB]

Now you are up to $5100 U.S. How much is the latest Mini V2 in Canada? Would your GS3 be coming from CC's stock of updated older machines or would it be the latest version coming in from Europe?

[johnnyboy5]

List on the Mini VII in Canada is about $2,400. Can probaly get it for $2,200 ish. Good question on the GS3 model. I don't know the answer to that, as I didn't realize there were any material updates on that machine, other than the steam wand issue.

[JohnB]

List on the Mini VII in Canada is about $2,400. Can probaly get it for $2,200 ish. Good question on the GS3 model. I don't know the answer to that, as I didn't realize there were any material updates on that machine, other than the steam wand issue.

Several software updates plus I believe the latest machines have changes to the buttons. Read through the "Firmware Upgrade" section on the GS3 forum to get some idea of whats involved in do-it-yourself upgrading. I'm not a computer guy so that stuff just makes the Speedster all the more appealing. The factory will continue to upgrade the software on the GS3 over time so you either will need a local source willing to & capable of upgrading your machine or you need to be able to do it yourself. No one will want "yesterdays" GS3!

[David23]

I think everyone has their own way of looking at purchases like this. I find myself buying what I "want" if possible, even though sometimes logic would dictate another choice. I have found when I deny myself, I ultimately end up regretting it, and later end up buying what I wanted in the first place. However, as I mentioned, that is just me. I am sure there are lots of people who evaluate the data and make an objective choice. I suggest you just decide which machine you "want", and go from there.

[johnnyboy5]

Thx David. These replys have been helpful, if only because they reinforce the obvious. What I was curious about was whether there were a whole bunch of objective features in favour of the GS3 over the Vivaldi, that I wasn't aware of. The answer seems to be no, at least for the most part. All the other other factors discussed are important and I'll weigh them and just decide. I get it though; same as owning a really nice luxury car-don't need it, but want it and enjoy it. Cheers.

[David23]

I just went through all this with a grinder. I have a Mazzer Mini, but recently saw a photo (damn you Oton) of a K30 and I was smitten. Decided I "needed" a grinder upgrade, read tons of stuff, all the posts etc. looking for someone to tell me I should definitely get the K30. Well, there are a lot of great grinders out there, many perform better than my Mini Mazzer, and some offer arguably better performance at a lower price than the K30. However, ultimately I have decided I "want" the K30, even if pure logic could dictate a different choice. That's the one I want to look at, and work with. I suspect I am not the only one making decisions based on the same "criteria".

[SwingT]

Just curious as to what grinder you are planning to use? And if you have given it equal or greater consideration than the machine?

[johnnyboy5]

I have decided on the Vario for now. Like the ability to grind for both espresso and press, and all the test reports I have seen compare the espresso grind quality favourably to an SJ. I am, of course, keeping open the possibility of an upgrade in the near future, but thought this was a good place to start. I need something to look forward to!

[JohnB]

I read that the Vario does a good espresso & press grind but will it switch from one to the other without requiring a recalibration for fineness or coarseness? I.e. if you've calibrated the Vario to give you an excellent espresso grind can you just quickly switch it to a coarse press pot setting & expect to get a fines free coarse grind of equal quality?

I've tried doing a coarse press pot grind with an M4 Macap, SJ & my current Majors & they are all hopeless in that range. I use my Kitchenaid Pro for press & cold brew grinds, one of my Majors for a finer then drip Vac Pot grind & one Major just for Espresso. Seems excessive but I have little more then the list price of a Vario invested in all 3 if you ignore the 2.5lbs of Cocobolo attached to the Majors.

[johnnyboy5]

Just picked up the Vario this afternoon. I played with it a little bit for espresso and not bad results for my first two pulls. Still need a little work to get it dialed in perfectly. Haven't really tried it for press yet, and frankly, i'll drink more americanos than press, but I wanted to keep open the option. Anyway, I ended up going with the Mini Vivaldi and the Vario, and I believe this is the start of a long love affair. What a great machine the Vivaldi is. Loving it so far!

[blowery]

I've had my Mini about two weeks now and I totally love it. Paired to a Cimbali Max Hybrid, it's just phenomenal. A huge improvement both in quality and usability from my PID'd Silvia. I can bang out two great shots and cappas in under five minutes in the morning now. I'm actually beating my wife to table, which never happened before... (She makes the eggs, I make the coffee)