Electrical Date Badge/Decal

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:10 pm

On page 4 of the Owners Manual there is a pic of the data badge that should be attached to the machine. I've looked all over mine but have yet to find it. Is it inside the covers? This badge lists voltage/wattage/place of mgfr/ect & I believe is required on any electrical appliance sold in the U.S. I'm particularly interested in the Wattage figure for the 20A V2.

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:00 pm

Remove the drip tray, look to the right side...

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:23 pm

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:28 pm

Great, thanks! Mine says 2200 watts, what did they beef up on the V2 to cause the extra draw?

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:32 pm

Since I have quite a long run from the breaker box to the 20A outlet/ machine I'm trying to figure out if the H/D 12 gauge Romex is up to the job. I might end up replacing it with a better quality 10 gauge.

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:34 pm

Nothing that I know of.... :?
2200W?
The machine is spec'd at 2050W and all the stickers I've seen say 2000W.

Well, they are Italian machines...probably a typo

OTOH, yours may be right (finally) - Chas ran some power tests with a Killawatt and the machine did run well over 2K watts.

JohnB wrote:Since I have quite a long run from the breaker box to the 20A outlet/ machine I'm trying to figure out if the H/D 12 gauge Romex is up to the job. I might end up replacing it with a better quality 10 gauge.

You should be fine with the 12G.
How far is the box?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:41 pm

JohnB wrote:Great, thanks! Mine says 2200 watts, what did they beef up on the V2 to cause the extra draw?

Based on what I saw when monitoring with the Kill-a-Watt device, I don't think the 2000W is accurate. The steam boiler is rated at 1250W and the group boiler is rated at 800W. That's already 2050W without considering the times when both boilers are running AND the pump motor is also on.

I've seen mine get close to 2400W!

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:46 pm

chas wrote: I've seen mine get close to 2400W!

That's more than 2 Hottops running!

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:51 pm

[/quote]You should be fine with the 12G.
How far is the box?[/quote]

I bought 60' of romex & had some left over which I'll measure tomorrow but I'm guessing I used 50' of it. I have a friend that does electrical work who tells me the Home Depot stuff is marginal. He wanted to know the wattage so we could figure out if I need to upgrade the wiring. At the school where he runs the maintenance crew he says they always use 10g for the 20A appliances.

I'm definitely not getting the same performance when both boilers are running so I want to figure out why & fix it.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:54 pm

...but less than two Behmors running! I discovered that there is an opening in the inside top of the Behmor in which there is another heater element and fan. I assume this is the smoke suppression system that attempts to incinerate the smoke particules.

When that heater element kicks in, in addition to the main heater element, that puppy draws some serious current.

CBC used to sell a 5A heavy duty Variac that they shipped with 15A fuses. However, the Behmor pops those 15A fuses so I can't use the Variac with it unless I turn down the voltage - which pretty much defeats the purpose.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:50 am

chas wrote:
JohnB wrote:Great, thanks! Mine says 2200 watts, what did they beef up on the V2 to cause the extra draw?
Based on what I saw when monitoring with the Kill-a-Watt device, I don't think the 2000W is accurate. The steam boiler is rated at 1250W and the group boiler is rated at 800W. That's already 2050W without considering the times when both boilers are running AND the pump motor is also on.

I've seen mine get close to 2400W!

If that was the case then you would be drawing 20.87A & a 20A circuit would really be insufficient for these machines. Ideally you should never be drawing more then 80% of any circuit if its configured correctly. As my electrician friend said when I gave him these figures "those wires would be glowing red in your walls"! Not something I want to think about everytime I turn on the machine. We are going to run some tests today but I think I will be upgrading to a high quality 10g romex at the minimum.

Post by **wgaggl** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:45 am

JohnB wrote:
chas wrote:
JohnB wrote:Great, thanks! Mine says 2200 watts, what did they beef up on the V2 to cause the extra draw?
Based on what I saw when monitoring with the Kill-a-Watt device, I don't think the 2000W is accurate. The steam boiler is rated at 1250W and the group boiler is rated at 800W. That's already 2050W without considering the times when both boilers are running AND the pump motor is also on.

I've seen mine get close to 2400W!
If that was the case then you would be drawing 20.87A & a 20A circuit would really be insufficient for these machines. Ideally you should never be drawing more then 80% of any circuit if its configured correctly. As my electrician friend said when I gave him these figures "those wires would be glowing red in your walls"! Not something I want to think about everytime I turn on the machine. We are going to run some tests today but I think I will be upgrading to a high quality 10g romex at the minimum.

Per code 12AWG wire should be sufficient for 20A. If you look up some engineering references, it's really good up to 23A enclosed at a max ambient temperature of 60C (140F). So even slightly more than 20A peak will typically work fine.

Also, the 80% load recommendation is for constant currents. The 2400W that Chas measured are definitely not constant. On average, the S1 certainly draws less than 20A.

Last, supply voltage varies over location and day-time. Where I live I'm typically having 117V, but I've seen 119V too, and down to 115V (in summer when everybody in the neighborhood turns on their A/C).
And with 119V I can get up to 2380W and still be within 20A.

Just make sure you are using a dedicated circuit, don't put anything else on that line, then you will be fine with 12AWG.

BTW: Pulling in 10AWG wire is a real pain, it's heavy and hard to bend.
...and rated up to 30A, with that you'll be set for further machine upgrades

W.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:48 pm

It's been four years and I haven't tripped the breaker once or burned the house down. Just had trees falling on the place.

Spekaing of which - they've starting rebuilding my deck today. And I'm having 15-20 80' trees removed which are the same distance or closer than the one that fell.

Soon I should be able to drink espresso in peace again!

Post by **Niko** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:28 pm

80' trees?!
dAmN.

The 12G wiring should be fine, if anyone would've burned down a house - it would be me and so far so good.

My friend is a commercial electrician, he said it depends on the quality of the 12G wiring, he ran the wiring for me on some of my stuff and one of my Spaz's is waaaaay far away from the box.
The voltage in my house varies between 123-126V, I've never seen it dip below 123V.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:30 pm

Yeah, both my roaster and my S1 are on the diagonally opposite side of the house from the breaker boxes, too.

Got two 200A panels in the house and the electric bill to prove it. Nothing like heat pumps and an all electric house when the temperature is in the single digits!

The only thing green about this house is the green I give to the power company.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:04 pm

chas wrote:Yeah, both my roaster and my S1 are on the diagonally opposite side of the house from the breaker boxes, too.

Got two 200A panels in the house and the electric bill to prove it. Nothing like heat pumps and an all electric house when the temperature is in the single digits!

The only thing green about this house is the green I give to the power company.

Save the firewood from all those trees, buy a woodstove and watch your heating bill plummet.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:12 pm

I'm seeing between 115v & 118v at my house. We ran tests on the breaker with the V2 in full swing & it only drew voltage down a volt or 2 so no big issue there. The wiring stayed cool so no changes planned there at this time.

I'd love to get my hands on a Fluke/Scace set up for further testing but dropping $500 to accurately check water temp is out of the question. I may pick up a reasonably priced meter with a thermocouple & play with that as I need a new meter anyways.