Please critique my water supply plan

[jmcphail]

I'm hoping folks with more expertise than I can critique my water supply plan. Maybe you can help uncover a gotcha or two!

My situation is that my counter and sink, refrigerator w/water supply and the intended home of my S1 are on three different walls of my kitchen, so I'm planning to replace the existing saddle valve on the 3/4" supply in the basement with a Tee, split the supplies to refrigerator and coffee with another Tee, run the coffee supply to a "demarc" that includes the softener kit and regulator, and finally up through the floor to a valve and female adapter to the S1. Lots of brazing, but that's the fun part. Several valves to ease maintenance in the future. The refrigerator already has its own filter system, or I'd split its supply after the softener.

[jmcphail]

Here's a new version of the diagram with numbered pieces, in the interest of making them more easier to refer to.

[wgaggl]

That's a very common setup. I think most of us have just that setup using CCs filter system. I'd just put a T-connector and a valve for a filter bleeding line (after new cartridge install) right before the regulator valve.

Wolfgang

[jmcphail]

Ahh, cool, good advice, thanks wgaggl! I also take your post to mean that my plan passes the sanity test, which is great.

[jmcphail]

I updated the diagram with the bleeder valve between the filters and the pressure regulator.

[JohnB]

If you use the John Guest fittings/valves/ect the only soldering(no brazing!) you'd have to do is at the take off on the 3/4" main. Also using 3/8" flex tubing would eliminate the elbow & make it much easier to fish through tight spots.

[Steve]

Although it taxes the cartridges a bit more, I like to have my ice maker downstream of the filtration setup. Nothing worse than bad ice in a fine cocktail! :?


-Steve

[wgaggl]

Although it taxes the cartridges a bit more, I like to have my ice maker downstream of the filtration setup. Nothing worse than bad ice in a fine cocktail! :?

As jmcphail indicated, he has a filter in his fridge already.
And softer water really doesn't make a better cocktail

W.

[jmcphail]

In my diagram, I'm wondering if both valves #12 & #13 are necessary.

I understand now about bleeding the line to purge the air after changing filter cartridges, but I don't know if it matters if this bleeder valve is before or after the regulator.

Interesting point about the cocktail, actually, I usually give a shot of water from the fridge directly into whatever wee dram I'm enjoying, but I've never heard about mineral content for that purpose, only that ideally it should be the same water used in the original casking... which is challenging :? . I need to ask Ardbeg about it :D

The plastic fittings look slick and in other circumstances I would consider them, but brazing is no problem and it's meant to be permanent. I already have some of the parts and pieces, and easy access to tools, so the copper was an easy choice.

I suspect I'll eventually install a whole-house softening system, just not this weekend.

The water quality report for Kansas City, Missouri, 2006 lists "hardness total" at 105 ppm, and I have no idea how that translates into "grains", does anyone know how that works?

[JohnB]

When you install new cartridges you will need to flush several gallons of water to clear out the excess salt/ect. Also it is nice to have a leg where you can tap some softened water to test to see if its time to replace the cartridge. I'd definitely keep 13 but I don't see the need for 12 if you are using #9 unless there is going to be a disconnect between 12 & 9.

105ppm isn't too hard, 120ppm is 7gr & 50ppm is 3gr. 50ppm is ideal for the machine so the softener cartridge should last awhile. I found my water(120PPM) was actually over softened with the system causing saltiness in the brew. I'm adding some hard water back into the feed between the softener & carbon cartridges to bring my hardness back up slightly.

[jmcphail]

Interesting about the saltiness. Are you using Indian or Indonesian beans by any chance? Just curious.

Valves #12 & #9 only differ by location - #12 is in the basement, #9 is upstairs behind the coffee area.

I guess I'd rather do the work putting it in now than run up and down the stairs later, pretty lazy of me. Or if sometime in the future I need to change the run from #11 to #9, maybe if the coffee bar moves to a new location in the house or something.

Something to note, the elbows #3 & #11 would change the supply from horizontal to vertical. They're supposed to line up with whatever hole is in the floor above them, and are the last stop before the vertical run on both legs of the circuit.

[wgaggl]

I'd definitely keep 13 but I don't see the need for 12 if you are using #9 unless there is going to be a disconnect between 12 & 9.

That depends where they are physically located.

It is a good idea to have a valve before and one after the filter chain just like the diagram. Both accessible by just extending your arms and both visible when changing the filters. You will find that most convenient for filter change.

The one close to the espresso machine is the one that I'd say is mostly redundant (how often do you disconnect your machine?), but it certainly doesn't hurt and adds convenience, especially if there's a distance between machine and softener system (jmcphail, I have basically the same physical layout with the softener in the basement and espresso machine upstairs in the kitchen).

Saltiness is an interesting point, we discussed that in another thread, I recall. I remember having some South American beans (sorry I forget which one) that gave a salty taste with too soft water. Also BlackCat shows that behavior. In the past they changed some of the components around and it got less pronounced.

Wolfgang

[Richard]

If you add a valve between the softener-filter and the 3/8" tee, you then have the ability to isolate the softener-filter, attach an intake line to the tee, drop the intake line into a container of descaler solution, and descale the espresso machine without ripping things apart.

[jmcphail]

Would there be enough supply pressure to siphon, or would I need to pump it in? I think I'd need a backflow preventer too, wouldn't I?

I think I don't fully understand what you mean.

[Consty]

Guys,

Why do you need a pressureregulator?

[JohnB]

The S1 likes to see a 30psi line pressure. Some homes could have up to 60psi pressure which will require resetting the rotary pump pressure & can cause leaks. A pressure regulator w/gauge will tell you exactly what the machine is getting & keep pressure in the optimum range.

[Consty]

Ok, i'll keep that in mind for the next order. Dunno what pressure I'm getting here in Holland, but it's good to know apparently

[Niko]

Is your machine dripping excessively?

[JohnB]

Is your machine dripping excessively?

Again "What's excessive & what's normal?

[Niko]

Excessive would be when the machine drips constantly no matter what...
you would have to empty the drip tray everyday during normal usage only after pulling a half dozen shots or so.

One time my old S1 dripped this way because the coffee oils jammed the expansion valve open- it leaked for two days and I had to empty the tray every 4 hours.
It finally dawned on me to backflush with Cafiza

[JohnB]

I checked mine today by pulling the drip tray & placing a paper towel under the valve for several hours. Nothing comes out with the machine on & idle or when I do a warming flush. I get a nice gusher after a backflush & it continues to drip slowly for about 1 minute then stops completely. Line pressure is right at 30psi.

[Niko]

Then it's perfetto for you!