So it's been a week or so since the new Vivaldi arrived, and I'm noticing some interesting contrasts between it and my old Anita. With the Anita I used an Espro tamper for a good while until I felt like my tamps were consistent, then switched to a curved-base RB tamper. But small variations in tamp or grind were easy to taste in the coffee, espectially shots that took too long. The bitter/sour spectrum was quite obvious when there was an error.
With the Vivaldi, however, there are wide variations in extraction times, but even though some shots are not that great (always the faster ones), none have been really bad, especially the one this morning that took almost a full minute from the time the first drops appeared.
I'm using a metal tamper, curved base (new Espro is in the mail). When I set up the machine I programmed a 2-oz double which was running at 25 seconds from first drops. Weather changes seem to affect shot time more on this machine than the Anita, but oddly, longer extraction times are not really adding an unpleasant amount of bitterness in the cup. In fact, the super long shot from this morning, in a cappuccino, was delicious, and that baffles me; a 60-second shot on the Anita would have been undrinkable.
As I go over the various parts of the equation in my mind, the only variable that seems to have changed significantly is the PF size, dropping 5mm in diameter, which has added depth to the puck. Also, a 30# tamp on a 53mm PF has 19.6% more pounds/square inch of force than on a 58mm (8.77 vs 7.33).
Anyway, what it all boils down to (no pun intended) is this question: have others found the Vivaldi to be more forgiving in shot quality compared to other machines? Does anyone have an idea what other variables might contribute to this pleasant discovery?
thanks,
Jeff
Shot quality
-
Niko
For starters, I think it's that rotary vs. vibe pump thing again. Although I've never had a pour that lasted 60 seconds, I believe you when you say it tastes good. I've had pours in the neighborhood of 45 seconds (double Ristrettos) that were to die for, just goes to show that the 25 second rule doesn't always apply. As we all know there's so many variables, you also did note that any shift in weather affects this machine. I definitely noticed the weather thingy right away, I have to change grinder settings, etc..
One odd thing is that my pours are identical on Anita, time-wise and flavor-wise....
but I know one thing, running a vibe pump for that long ain't good for it.
One odd thing is that my pours are identical on Anita, time-wise and flavor-wise....
but I know one thing, running a vibe pump for that long ain't good for it.
-
ebprod
Re: Shot quality
It could be that during a long extraction with the Anita the HX is overheating as the water temperature rises during the course of the shot. The double boiler of the S1 would stay within range for the longer shot.
-Joe
-Joe
Jeff wrote: oddly, longer extraction times are not really adding an unpleasant amount of bitterness in the cup. In fact, the super long shot from this morning, in a cappuccino, was delicious, and that baffles me; a 60-second shot on the Anita would have been undrinkable.
-
Niko
-
Martin
-
Niko
-
bluesman13
can I assume then that when I remove my pf and there is the impression of the screen, it's over dosed? (<--- this is a serious question)Niko wrote: Depends on the blend, on some (very few), I can get away with it but the closer those grounds are to those screens - the shot is more susceptible to big-time channelling.
-
Richard
You don't say what sort of coffee you are using nor what the weight of the dose is, but that description is likely what I would consider to be seriously overdosed.bluesman13 wrote:can I assume then that when I remove my pf and there is the impression of the screen, it's over dosed? (<--- this is a serious question)
-
bluesman13
The coffee is Paradise Roasters Expresso Classico - but as far the weight I haven't a clue. Is there a visual way to determine the amount of coffee in the portafilter? How do I figure out the weight?Richard wrote:You don't say what sort of coffee you are using nor what the weight of the dose is, but that description is likely what I would consider to be seriously overdosed.bluesman13 wrote:can I assume then that when I remove my pf and there is the impression of the screen, it's over dosed? (<--- this is a serious question)
-
Niko
-
TruthBrew
Bluesman... I'm another S1 owner here in the Mpls area that uses Classico as my everyday espresso. I've had my machine since Dec '05.bluesman13 wrote:The coffee is Paradise Roasters Expresso Classico - but as far the weight I haven't a clue. Is there a visual way to determine the amount of coffee in the portafilter? How do I figure out the weight?Richard wrote:You don't say what sort of coffee you are using nor what the weight of the dose is, but that description is likely what I would consider to be seriously overdosed.bluesman13 wrote:can I assume then that when I remove my pf and there is the impression of the screen, it's over dosed? (<--- this is a serious question)
What size basket are you using? What grinder? I'd be happy to guesstimate the amount of grounds you are using assuming that you don't yet have a scale. Otherwise I'd be happy to get together sometime and bring the scale.
-
ebprod
Another Minnesotan here- I'm in St Paul!! I just got some Classico green and roasted it in my new Behmor.
What temperature are you brewing it at? I haven't gotten a pour with it yet that I am happy with. It may be that the beans are too fresh yet.
-Joe
What temperature are you brewing it at? I haven't gotten a pour with it yet that I am happy with. It may be that the beans are too fresh yet.
-Joe
TruthBrew wrote:
Bluesman... I'm another S1 owner here in the Mpls area that uses Classico as my everyday espresso. I've had my machine since Dec '05.
What size basket are you using? What grinder? I'd be happy to guesstimate the amount of grounds you are using assuming that you don't yet have a scale. Otherwise I'd be happy to get together sometime and bring the scale.
-
bluesman13
truthbrew and ebprod,ebprod wrote:Another Minnesotan here- I'm in St Paul!! I just got some Classico green and roasted it in my new Behmor.
What temperature are you brewing it at? I haven't gotten a pour with it yet that I am happy with. It may be that the beans are too fresh yet.
-Joe
TruthBrew wrote:
Bluesman... I'm another S1 owner here in the Mpls area that uses Classico as my everyday espresso. I've had my machine since Dec '05.
What size basket are you using? What grinder? I'd be happy to guesstimate the amount of grounds you are using assuming that you don't yet have a scale. Otherwise I'd be happy to get together sometime and bring the scale.
I think a we should debut the Twin Cities Coffee Geek chapter at Kopplins sometime soon. I live in St. Louis Park, but I don't need a much arm twisting to drive to Saint Paul for a Kopplins visit. What do you think?
Steve
-
ebprod
I hadn't heard of Kopplins before, even though I don't live that far from them. My wife and I made a trip there this morning. The coffee was great, but it was nice to know that we can pretty much match it at home (except the latte art). I now have a place that I can benchmark my own coffee with.TruthBrew wrote:
truthbrew and ebprod,
I think a we should debut the Twin Cities Coffee Geek chapter at Kopplins sometime soon. I live in St. Louis Park, but I don't need a much arm twisting to drive to Saint Paul for a Kopplins visit. What do you think?
Steve
They were pretty busy, so I'm going to make another trip during the week and savor the experience a little more.
-Joe
-
boldstep
niko mentioned earlier in this thread that the s1 is effected by weather. What do you speculate is the actual mechanism here? I thought it might be the grinder temperature that results in pull time diiferences. I leave the s1 on 24/7 so I assume it should be at the right temp; the grinder however is at whatever temp the room is plus how often you've been grinding. I have the Macap doserless btw
-
Niko
-
boldstep
thanks for your reply. So how do you or I control the humidity and temperature of the beans?? What I'm after is a constant volume in a constant time with a constant tamp and constant grind. It should be doable. I leave the s1 on all the time, fix the grinder and use a 30 lb tamp(that clicks at 30lb). At any time of the day I can get shot to shot constant volume and time BUT not day to day or even Am to Pm.... Thoughts?? Is there the equivalent of a humidor for beans so that they don't change temp and humidity? Would that solve my problem? Thanks
-
Weska
I think you are looking for more precision and repeatability than coffee permits.
After all, we are talking about an organic product with broad variations batch to batch, local brewing conditions that are difficult if not impossible control but probably of far less magnitude than those batch to batch variations in the input. On top of this successful measurements of the conditions during brewing (temperature, grind shape and size, hydraulics in the puck, pressure during extraction) are either still to be definitively measured or have controversial alternative measurement techniques still in play.
Also, few seem to acknowledge that the sensory apparatus that provides the sensations we are trying to reproduce is itself highly variable. Does anyone seriously think that what you recently ate and drank (and smoked, if applicable) besides coffee has no effect on how the coffee tastes? That if your palate has been long clear of other foodstuffs it closely resembles what it becomes after ingesting some?
Even the way coffee flavors are said to "evolve" as the cup cools may have more to do with earlier sips having influenced our subsequent sense of taste than with temperature changes.
You just have to keep rolling with the punches. You might diminsh the number and magnitude of them with technical control of some of the grosser and easily manipulated variables, but you can't eliminate the jab you didn't see coming.
After all, we are talking about an organic product with broad variations batch to batch, local brewing conditions that are difficult if not impossible control but probably of far less magnitude than those batch to batch variations in the input. On top of this successful measurements of the conditions during brewing (temperature, grind shape and size, hydraulics in the puck, pressure during extraction) are either still to be definitively measured or have controversial alternative measurement techniques still in play.
Also, few seem to acknowledge that the sensory apparatus that provides the sensations we are trying to reproduce is itself highly variable. Does anyone seriously think that what you recently ate and drank (and smoked, if applicable) besides coffee has no effect on how the coffee tastes? That if your palate has been long clear of other foodstuffs it closely resembles what it becomes after ingesting some?
Even the way coffee flavors are said to "evolve" as the cup cools may have more to do with earlier sips having influenced our subsequent sense of taste than with temperature changes.
You just have to keep rolling with the punches. You might diminsh the number and magnitude of them with technical control of some of the grosser and easily manipulated variables, but you can't eliminate the jab you didn't see coming.
-
Niko
Weska is right.
Other little things I do to help...
I use vacuum canisters with a pump to remove all the air out when I store the beans. I also have a MACAP autotamper (large table top model) which is really super precise with the pressure, I don't use this much but it's nice to have when I do mass shots for parties.
Other than that, other variables come into play with temp and humidity - in the winter time that goes up and down depending how much air people dry out running their heaters to warm up a house, etc..
I notice more changes in the winter months. Most of the time I never need to make adjustments to the grinder night or day.
Other little things I do to help...
I use vacuum canisters with a pump to remove all the air out when I store the beans. I also have a MACAP autotamper (large table top model) which is really super precise with the pressure, I don't use this much but it's nice to have when I do mass shots for parties.
Other than that, other variables come into play with temp and humidity - in the winter time that goes up and down depending how much air people dry out running their heaters to warm up a house, etc..
I notice more changes in the winter months. Most of the time I never need to make adjustments to the grinder night or day.
-
boldstep
Interesting... I especially like the tip about the vacuum canisters. Any brand in specific you can recommend?
I know I sound like I am asking for a lot but all I really want is this: with the _same_ batch of coffee and with the grinder set exactly the same and assuming that your tamp is 30 lbs, you should be able to get approximately the same volume in the same amount of time (+/- 1-2 secs) from shot to shot. Do you guys find that you can do that day to day (same batch of beans) or even shot to shot? I am finding a big variability. For instance, in the evening I'll pull a 2 ounce shot, in 27 seconds, with a fixed grind setting and my 30 lb fixed tamp. I'll wake up in the morning (with my s1 on 24/7), grind the beans, tamp, and in 27 seconds I'll get 1 ounce!! That just seems crazy. Is it my inexperience or is it the life of a barista?
I know I sound like I am asking for a lot but all I really want is this: with the _same_ batch of coffee and with the grinder set exactly the same and assuming that your tamp is 30 lbs, you should be able to get approximately the same volume in the same amount of time (+/- 1-2 secs) from shot to shot. Do you guys find that you can do that day to day (same batch of beans) or even shot to shot? I am finding a big variability. For instance, in the evening I'll pull a 2 ounce shot, in 27 seconds, with a fixed grind setting and my 30 lb fixed tamp. I'll wake up in the morning (with my s1 on 24/7), grind the beans, tamp, and in 27 seconds I'll get 1 ounce!! That just seems crazy. Is it my inexperience or is it the life of a barista?
-
Niko
You can get these at wholelattelove.com or a few other places on the net.
They work great, I have about 6 of them...
As for consistency, I've gone through a couple of pounds worth of coffee before with really nice tight consistency from shot to shot with almost no change.
Then again I've gone through times when I wanted to yank my hair out...
They work great, I have about 6 of them...
As for consistency, I've gone through a couple of pounds worth of coffee before with really nice tight consistency from shot to shot with almost no change.
Then again I've gone through times when I wanted to yank my hair out...
-
Weska
Ah, boldstep, maybe I was too negative, and ranting about tastebuds and such might have been going a little far.
What you are asking for now is not unattainable. I rarely change my settings on the grinder by much. Half a turn on the MACAP adjustment is a lot and will get me two to four seconds difference in timing. Days can go by, especially during the winter heating season, when I don't touch the adjustment.
Somewhat heretically, I use the automatic dosing, so my volume is always the same. (Why do I use it? Because I find it difficult to judge blonding by inspection, and I wanted to replace what I considered an unreliable way to end the shot.) I rarely have a shot fall outside 22-27 seconds. Probably, 25 seconds is my most common resulting time. The taste of them seems almost always agreeable and often excellent.
I weigh to the tenth of a gram, grind by the shot, and obsessively sweep the grinder. Obsessively? Yes, by blowing the chute clear with a stiff-nozzled ear syringe. I run the grinder once until empty sounding, then pulse twice more with air flushing after each go. I also weigh the ground coffee after I sweep it into a ramekin, and before I spoon it into the portafilter. Usually, I get only a tenth of a gram less than I put in.
Three heaping spoonsful go into the pf, then I drag the back of the spoon at a steep angle all around the edge to leave a mound in the center and seal toward the edges. The result is a doughnut-shaped depression in the coffee loaded to that point. Then a couple of light taps downward on my Bumper tamping station. Then carelessly spoon the remaining coffee into the center of the pf, squash gently to the edges with the back of the spoon, and tamp. Tamp is not controlled, although I trained a long time on a bathroom scale.
So, what you are asking is within reach with your equipment. I will say that it took me quite some time to get there after I first acquired my Vivaldi, and the breakthrough came when I was convinced to downdose to less than 14 grams.
Should you copy what I'm doing? Not likely. This is just to suggest to you what sort of drill and attentiveness might be useful to get the consistency you are after. You'll find your own way to it. Please tell us what you find when you do. A month from now I may be going about this a different way myself, and I'd like to hear how to do it with less effort. Your way will be as valid as mine and could easily be superior.
By the way, don't get discouraged if it all falls apart on you some day. A season of troubles seems to happen every once in a while for unknown reasons. (Ask Niko.) It is unspeakably frustrating but persistence will be rewarded.
But, back to my earlier ranting mode, if your shots all taste quite the same, I think that proves you are not paying attention.
What you are asking for now is not unattainable. I rarely change my settings on the grinder by much. Half a turn on the MACAP adjustment is a lot and will get me two to four seconds difference in timing. Days can go by, especially during the winter heating season, when I don't touch the adjustment.
Somewhat heretically, I use the automatic dosing, so my volume is always the same. (Why do I use it? Because I find it difficult to judge blonding by inspection, and I wanted to replace what I considered an unreliable way to end the shot.) I rarely have a shot fall outside 22-27 seconds. Probably, 25 seconds is my most common resulting time. The taste of them seems almost always agreeable and often excellent.
I weigh to the tenth of a gram, grind by the shot, and obsessively sweep the grinder. Obsessively? Yes, by blowing the chute clear with a stiff-nozzled ear syringe. I run the grinder once until empty sounding, then pulse twice more with air flushing after each go. I also weigh the ground coffee after I sweep it into a ramekin, and before I spoon it into the portafilter. Usually, I get only a tenth of a gram less than I put in.
Three heaping spoonsful go into the pf, then I drag the back of the spoon at a steep angle all around the edge to leave a mound in the center and seal toward the edges. The result is a doughnut-shaped depression in the coffee loaded to that point. Then a couple of light taps downward on my Bumper tamping station. Then carelessly spoon the remaining coffee into the center of the pf, squash gently to the edges with the back of the spoon, and tamp. Tamp is not controlled, although I trained a long time on a bathroom scale.
So, what you are asking is within reach with your equipment. I will say that it took me quite some time to get there after I first acquired my Vivaldi, and the breakthrough came when I was convinced to downdose to less than 14 grams.
Should you copy what I'm doing? Not likely. This is just to suggest to you what sort of drill and attentiveness might be useful to get the consistency you are after. You'll find your own way to it. Please tell us what you find when you do. A month from now I may be going about this a different way myself, and I'd like to hear how to do it with less effort. Your way will be as valid as mine and could easily be superior.
By the way, don't get discouraged if it all falls apart on you some day. A season of troubles seems to happen every once in a while for unknown reasons. (Ask Niko.) It is unspeakably frustrating but persistence will be rewarded.
But, back to my earlier ranting mode, if your shots all taste quite the same, I think that proves you are not paying attention.
-
boldstep
Weska,
Thanks for your detailed and helpful reply. It's very encouraging to hear that you can maintain that tight a range on shot time.
I put into action your suggestions, purchasing a scale that gives 0.1 g accuracy and distributed the grinds as you describe. I think my shot time range has now improved but I'll have to see how it goes day to day. I'll keep you posted on what I discover. I will say that I was amazed how downdosing to 14 g produces such a lovely tasting shot (I thought it might make it become over-extracted).
Lastly, regarding your rant, philosophically, nothing is the same moment to moment, especially espresso shots! :-) Practically speaking, I think I can tell a difference of about 3 seconds in extraction time (between two different shots) but if two shots come out in about the same time (<3 secs), I can't tell them apart... that being said, I might lose my mind even more than I already have if I could! :-)
Thanks again for the great tips!
Thanks for your detailed and helpful reply. It's very encouraging to hear that you can maintain that tight a range on shot time.
I put into action your suggestions, purchasing a scale that gives 0.1 g accuracy and distributed the grinds as you describe. I think my shot time range has now improved but I'll have to see how it goes day to day. I'll keep you posted on what I discover. I will say that I was amazed how downdosing to 14 g produces such a lovely tasting shot (I thought it might make it become over-extracted).
Lastly, regarding your rant, philosophically, nothing is the same moment to moment, especially espresso shots! :-) Practically speaking, I think I can tell a difference of about 3 seconds in extraction time (between two different shots) but if two shots come out in about the same time (<3 secs), I can't tell them apart... that being said, I might lose my mind even more than I already have if I could! :-)
Thanks again for the great tips!
-
Weska
-
coffeeowl
Dialing in new espresso machine - step-by-step guide on HB :)
I must say I didn't have much trouble with Vivaldi. Only at the beginning a bit difficult to match grind setting, specially when switching from doubles to singles.
I dose around 14-15g for doubles and 8-9 for singles, my routine is WDT, then a level-tamp, tap, 30pounds tamp and go.
I have yet to work on dosing for singles.
I must say I didn't have much trouble with Vivaldi. Only at the beginning a bit difficult to match grind setting, specially when switching from doubles to singles.
I dose around 14-15g for doubles and 8-9 for singles, my routine is WDT, then a level-tamp, tap, 30pounds tamp and go.
I have yet to work on dosing for singles.
-
boldstep
-
coffeeowl
Actually, this implication is not necessarly true. If you get too fast shot it still may be tasty.boldstep wrote:I am anywhere from 18 to 28 secs, which means many shots are crap.
I'd had my grind setting too fine, after adjustment I get around 29 seconds double shots, which I stop by color.
Yet it's cold winter outside and pretty stable weather for a couple of days here... if the humidity changes I will have to adjust again 
It is very VERY helpful to use a naked
pf; if you spoil anything, then you will see it; and for me it was a huge help in judging when blonding starts - with spouted pf I thought it was earlier then it realy is.-
Niko
-
boldstep
I use an intelligencia blend and I find shots that come out in 18 sec are weak. The ones that go on for beyond 30s are not tasty either, although I am not saying this is a rule. So as a general rule do you shoot for stopping the shot right after tiger stripping ends and blonding begins? Is that a better indicator of when to stop the flow than time?
-
Niko
You'll see both happening, the striping will cease and the flow actually changes - you'll notice it gets thinner.
I usually stop as soon as the blonding starts so my shots tend to be in the 18-23 second range most of the time depending on the bean.
If your shots are tasting a little on the nasty side, it's probably due to channeling. I don't believe in "puckology" but how do your pucks look? Do they have any evidence showing this, such as poke marks that look like a pencil stabbed at the grinds?
I usually stop as soon as the blonding starts so my shots tend to be in the 18-23 second range most of the time depending on the bean.
If your shots are tasting a little on the nasty side, it's probably due to channeling. I don't believe in "puckology" but how do your pucks look? Do they have any evidence showing this, such as poke marks that look like a pencil stabbed at the grinds?
Last edited by Niko on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
boldstep
Thanks Niko. I'll look those signs and try to shoot for keeping that transition region in the 18-23 second range.
Regarding channeling: I look for this on every shot. I have a bottomless portafilter and I look at the puck for tiny holes after the pull. Usually when channeling occurs I see both: spouting on the bottom of the pf and then I find a hole in the puck.
Going on to other subjects: has anyone found beans that like unusually hot temps? For that matter what is usual in terms of temps? What is the hottest temp you've used and liked? For example, if my taste buds are not deceiving me, I think the Intelligencia blend I am using likes 96 C. Where does that land in terms of "normal" optimum temps for beans?
Regarding channeling: I look for this on every shot. I have a bottomless portafilter and I look at the puck for tiny holes after the pull. Usually when channeling occurs I see both: spouting on the bottom of the pf and then I find a hole in the puck.
Going on to other subjects: has anyone found beans that like unusually hot temps? For that matter what is usual in terms of temps? What is the hottest temp you've used and liked? For example, if my taste buds are not deceiving me, I think the Intelligencia blend I am using likes 96 C. Where does that land in terms of "normal" optimum temps for beans?