VivII looks pretty good next to a GS/3 (from SCAA Champs!)

Post by **Jesse** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:56 pm

So I was at the SCAA Barista championships in Petaluma last weekend and had the opportunity to play with the new GS/3 for a while. My greatest impression was,

Post by **Niko** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:52 pm

Jesse wrote:Temp control seems very good in comparison to the VivII; I saw less than 1*F temp change over a pour on the GS/3 as compared to about 1*C on my VivII.

Hey Jesse, I see you're at it again with that GS3.
I'd post some thermometry I got with the Scace Device but I'm not very good with Excel (yet) but I pulled some numbers close to the GS3. The VII doesn't waver much at the set temps, it actually surprised me how accurate and stable it was. I'm hitting within a degree Fahrenheit of the dialed in brew temp.
I think there's a waiting list of 499 now for the GS3, I dropped out after the VII emerged.
Nice report, I love it!

Post by **Jesse** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:41 pm

Hey Niko,

So a buddy and I spent last weekend with all manner of temp measuring devices and spent a lot of time focusing on tuning the VivII. Specifically, we were shooting to figure out what the relative offset between the LED indicated temp on the VivII vs. reality--since I am still not knocked out with the espresso coming out of the machine.

It looks like my machine, at the top of the puck, is up to 2*C cooler than indicated by the LED

Post by **Bud** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:26 pm

Jesse,

I am a future V2 owner, my machine was held up by customs in this recent shipment. Hopefully they will be shipping soon and I

Post by **Niko** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:19 pm

[quote="Bud"]I must admit I was a bit disheartened by the admission that you liked the 58mm basket much better that the 53mm and you are having difficulties with shot quality/serious channeling two in three times- that

Post by **Niko** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:23 pm

[quote="Jesse"]At any rate, send me the raw data Niko, and an explanation of what the bits mean, and I

Post by **Jesse** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Hi Bud,

I have been using the 57mm (niko!!) and 58mm for nearly my entire time in Espresso land. I am totally familiar with it, I have (had) custom made hand-turned tamps for the baskets, and had developed a system that consistently produced outstanding espresso. I was amazed by how effortless great coffee was

Post by **Zzyzx** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:47 pm

[quote="Bud"]Jesse,

Also, if anyone else wants to chime in about Spaz shot consistency, I

Post by **Jesse** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:39 am

For me it comes down to the grind, tamp & freshness of the coffee.

Yeah, on this we agree. But how fresh the beans are matters--I find three day old coffee is too fresh and seven too old for the beans to taste right for my palette.

The right tamp/grind has so far proved illusive, alas. I initially had the Mazzer set to match the settings of the

Post by **Niko** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:53 am

Yeah tell me about it...I have this one particular roast type that tastes great after the 3rd day of relaxing, it's good until day 6 but after that it's a cup of ash to me. Anytime before the 3rd day it tastes like something which I can't say on this forum, I just simply spit it out every time but of course I never learn.
Then there's another type which is drinkable right out of the roaster but goes bad to me after the 4th day, go figure.
So you're not alone with the persnickety palette Jesse, I feel your pain.

Jesse, you in Calistoga?

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:44 am

If any of you want to play with your VII offset and don't know how, I've posted instructions here:

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/temptest.html

Post by **Jesse** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:53 am

So you're not alone with the persnickety palette Jesse, I feel your pain.

Jesse, you in Calistoga?

Nah Niko, I am down in deepest darkest Napa--in Tulocay--near such dangerous haunts as Sweetie Pies and Gavin Newsom's new restaurant , Boon Fly (v. good).

I roasted some of the Blue Quetzel Guatemala last night and it somehow got in the queue for drip this morning. I took one sip and covertly poured the rest of the cup back in the pot. Yuck!

Tomorrow, it'll be great. So weird.
-Jesse

Post by **foreignview** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:10 pm

Nah Niko, I am down in deepest darkest Napa--in Tulocay--near such dangerous haunts as Sweetie Pies and Gavin Newsom's new restaurant , Boon Fly (v. good).

I should go to the darkest part of Napa more often ... I only make it there when we have visitors.
--ilya

Post by **Jesse** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:07 am

Bud,
See my post in the Pursuit of the S1/VII God Shot category on this, but after following some of the theory put forth in SOME ASPECTS OF ESPRESSO EXTRACTION by Jim Schulman, I am dazzled at how much improved my shot quality is.

As I conjectured in an earlier post, the problem with the VivII was indeed operator error. After I dialed down the quantity of coffee to 13-14 grams (from 15-16-17 grams) the coffee became consistantly good and occasionally very good.

Like seriously good.

I am thrilled.
-Jesse

Post by **Jesse** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:10 am

Ilya,

You should visit more often. Napa is not nearly as bad as the guide books say.
-J

Post by **Bud** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:38 am

Jesse,

Glad you are tuning in to the machine, and you are happier with your shots- let us know if you discover any more variables or improvements, or longer extraction times.

I got word that my machine was either shipped Tuesday, or will be on Wednesday, I have not received the shipping confirmation yet, I should know later today, anyway it would be great if I get it by Friday, then I would have the weekend to play with it!

May your God shots be many & Sink shots be few

Bud

Post by **Jesse** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:37 am

Well that is exciting! I look forward to reading of your adventures.

-J

Post by **Niko** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:56 pm

Looks like the GS3 sports the same pump as the VII...

Post by **Jesse** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:48 pm

Niko said:
Looks like the GS3 sports the same pump as the VII...

Niko, I guess that's inspiring... I have to confess I hoped for a Procon (in my S1Vii too).

Bud said:
Glad you are tuning in to the machine, and you are happier with your shots- let us know if you discover any more variables or improvements, or longer extraction times.

Visiting Averian this last weekend, I saw he was using a cut-up Yoplait cup as a funnel which he had cut down to _perfectly_ fit into his portafilter and under the Mazzer... it enabled him to shake and level the grounds, as well as stir them up, and get better distribution than Mazzer offers alone.

Clever.

When I got home, I cut the lip off a Yoplait cup and trimmed the base off so that I had a thin, smooth plastic funnel which fit tightly and perfectly into the Viv II filter basket when on the fork under the Mazzer.

Once the grounds are in the basket, with the Yoplait funnel still on, I stir the grounds around with a jumbo paper clip and it REALLY improves my distribution!

I was able to reduce the size of my grind MUCH further than when I was stirring the ground with the back of a spoon.

-Jesse

Post by **Niko** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:02 pm

I've been using that trick for years, minus the yogurt container...what I really do is stir up the grinds as they fall into the PF. I got it down pretty good to a point where I don't lose a single grind, a white napkin below proves it. I do this with my new Mazzer doserless as well, stir the grinds as they distribute into the PF and it works pretty well. Funny thing is that the doserless mini E should be renamed "Messiness Mini E", it is a mess compared to my non-dosing doserless MACAP which by 1st glance would seem messier when it really isn't.
I guess everyone finds their groove one way or another...

Post by **Jesse** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:33 am

Perhaps your technique does all that I am proposing, but I found that the addition of the yogurt funnel to my paper-clip routine really helped things. While I am certainly in no place to match your white napkin trick, the funnel helped me stir with abandon, sort of roto-tilling first with the rounded end of a jumbo paper-clip and then do a final stir with just the poker end.

Neat!

Post by **Niko** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:13 am

You hit the nail on the head.
Roto-tilling...I love it!
I use a high quality chopstick, it has a very fine tapered tip which allows me to stir nicely in the baskets and then a nice finishing move to sweep out the grinds stuck in a doserless chute (the MACAP). The Mazzer isn't as easy to quickly get the last .25 gram out for me.

Speaking about technique:
I just had a revelation on tamping the other day, so I threw everything I learned over the years out the window in about 5 seconds after seeing what a MACAP auto tamper does.
This thing managed to tamp the grinds in one quick punch, like a drill press, in about 2 seconds. No fancy polishing moves, no special anything, I just did a tamp and go and the result floored me. The damn thing pulled a ristretto that was to die for!
At least it confirmed that my tamp pressure (by hand) is dead on...

Post by **Martin** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:52 pm

Jesse wrote:Perhaps your technique does all that I am proposing, but I found that the addition of the yogurt funnel to my paper-clip routine really helped things. While I am certainly in no place to match your white napkin trick, the funnel helped me stir with abandon, sort of roto-tilling first with the rounded end of a jumbo paper-clip and then do a final stir with just the poker end.

Neat!

The yogurt cup 1) channels and contains grounds as they come out of my Mini doserless chute; 2) means that I don't have to be so careful when stiring; and 3) wedges the pf-cup between the bottom of the chute and the pf rest below. Result is hands-free while grinding----to do something else (usually pat dry the shower screen).

Don't know if it has been referenced here, but check out the WDT method on Home Barista. http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distr ... nique.html

Been there a while. My version of the dissecting needle / paper clip stirrer is on my Viv II "Pride" post on this site. follow that link, or
http://www.pbase.com/mnl/image/77147463/large
It's the small brush I use for the chute plus 2 florist wires taped to the opposite end.

Martin

Post by **krus** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:51 pm

Jess, I'm curious - did you conduct your measurement at the top of the boiler cycle? On the VII, I believe the heating element won't come on until the boiler temp has dropped atleast 1F, which could explain why your measurements were lower than indicated on the display panel.

Kurt

Post by **Jesse** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:12 pm

Krus,

This would be an excellent questions. Yes, I try to always have the boiler on when I pull a shot. My machine typically heats through the bars are a consistent pace, so I just guess when the boiler is about to go off and hit the go button. This way the heater stays on.

Interestingly, but perhaps only to me, I added a 4 gallon booster tank with 3/8" line to the VivII in the hopes that the stored water temperature would be more stable closer to the VivII and it seems to have had no identifiable effect.

The search goes on,
Jesse

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:17 pm

Kurt, the S1 boilers kicked on after 1C temp drop but the VII is supposed to kick on after only 1/2C drop. LaSpaz changed the firmware and added more sensitive temperature probes so it can do that.

I can confirm, since I had both an S1 and a VII for a while, that the VII boiler comes on about twice as often as the S1 but for only half as long.

Post by **Jesse** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:20 pm

Nice. That's great to know.

Post by **Niko** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:34 pm

chas wrote: I can confirm, since I had both an S1 and a VII for a while, that the VII boiler comes on about twice as often as the S1 but for only half as long.

I can also confirm this...the VII has more obsessive compulsive disorders when it comes to the heating elements. I've timed the 2 machines side by side and the steam boiler does the same thing, it cycles more frequently for shorter periods of time.

Post by **Jesse** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:48 pm

Now the interesting thing to me is that my machine will go down three lights during a scant 2 oz ristretto pour - and while the swing is not really 3*C according to the Flukes, it is more than I would like.

Does this mirror the collective experience?

Jesse

Post by **Niko** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:16 pm

My S1's LED will go off during a scant 2 oz pour, though the temp isn't really that far down (according to my Fluke and Scace), now keep in mind that's 5C on that machine for each LED.
My VII's LEDs don't budge during any pours at all, they proceed to start going off immediately after shots are done, all the way down to all of them being off except for the single blinking one showing the programmed temp. It's pretty normal for that machine to do that and it recovers extremely fast, only 34 seconds or so depending on ambient conditions. On hotter, drier days the recovery is really fast but a good average is in that 25-35 second bracket.

Post by **Jesse** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:34 pm

Thanks Niko, that's about like mine, except at second 18 or so, one led goes down, then shortly thereafter a second and then third (if it is a long pour ~28sec).

When I Kill the pour, yeah, they all go black, so it sounds like things are similar.
Jesse

The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

VivII looks pretty good next to a GS/3 (from SCAA Champs!)

VivII looks pretty good next to a GS/3 (from SCAA Champs!)

Re: VivII looks pretty good next to a GS/3 (from SCAA Champs

Oy and a good distribution fix!