Greg Scace Thermofilter for the S1

Post by **wgaggl** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:44 pm

Hi all,

I'm excited about this:

Espressoparts is willing to put a series of Greg Scace Thermofilter together for the La Spaziale S1, if there's enough interest.

http://www.espressoparts.com/product/EP-THERMOFILTER

Please send me a PM on this board so I can compile a list of interested persons!

Let me know soon,
Wolfgang

Post by **bobroseman** » Tue May 09, 2006 8:50 am

Wolfgang,

What ever became of this?

Bob

Post by **wgaggl** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:26 am

Wolfgang,

What ever became of this?

Bob

Bob,

there didn't seem to be much demand for a Scace thermometer for the S1 unfortunately. One might think that there are enough tinkerer out there to justify a small series (5-10) for the S1.
Well, and I got around with the Schomer method, so I didn't try any further.

Of course the question is still there! :D

Wolfgang

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:40 am

I think the problem with this is one of perceived value. When people see an item for sale they get a notion of its perceived value and mentally compare that to the asking price. I see this and its constituant parts and something in the range of $85-$100 pops into my mind. So seeing a cost of $250 has me immediately file it in the "no way" category.

For a seller/servicer of coffee machines, like Chris, this is a reasonable price because it'll probably get used everyday. For home users, its appeal is pretty limited at that price.

Post by **bobroseman** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:52 pm

If you care to make one, Greg (Scarce) has posted a specification on the internet somewhere.

BTW, it may not be what most of us would spent $250 on, but the price isn't so terrible when one considers the cost of a thermocouple and portafilter, If there were $120 in parts cost and two hours of labor - the cost of manufacture would be $160 and the gross profit would be $90 a unit. That's not out of line for a low volume product.

Bob

Post by **Niko** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:32 pm

Add a Fluke thermometer and the price goes over $450.
Can't measure the brew temp with the Scace Device alone.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:39 pm

When I did my original S1 measurements I made a "poor man's" version. I already had a Fluke with TC that I had purchased about a year before.

I sacrificed the single basket and drilled a small hole to run the TC wire through. I also took a fairly dense sponge and cut a circle out to simulate the puck. I punched a small hole through the sponge to extend the TC up so that the TC sensor sits flush with the top of the sponge which is the right where the top of the puck would be. Works great!

Otherwise, I only use the single basket with the rubber disk for backflushing and the hole I drilled in the single basket is still sealed by the rubber disk just fine.

Post by **Niko** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:50 pm

I thought so!
I noticed some pics you posted last year with the new handles that Les made for you. I saw a small hole in your single basket, now I know I wasn't seeing things. Indeed, the small hole was there for something.
Nice idea...

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:54 pm

Yeah, I like the handles better than the tampers!

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:33 am

I think they already have it in. I emailed them about a recent order for the Rancilio version of the Scace and said I had to return it bc I was getting a La Spaz (SO excited, just ordered it!) and he said I could just exchange it for the 53 version.

Post by **Niko** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:20 am

Do you already have a Fluke thermometer?
I've been so lazy, I need to get on the ball and order the Scace and a Fluke soon.
They do have the Scace in stock, it doesn't show on their website but it's there if you ask. They've had it for months.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:19 pm

yes, got a 52-II fluke on ebay.

Post by **Niko** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:21 pm

My Scace is on the way.
Still waiting for the damn Fluke to arrive. I'll post some temperatures for each of my two machines soon.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:42 pm

exciting! it will be a while before mine is up and running as i still haven't received the Rancilion version of the Scace that I'll be exchanging.

Looking forward to seeing your numbers!

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:43 pm

I need one or both of you guys to retake the readings I have on the VII Website so we can replace the current set. That way I can have better readings and save myself $250!

Post by **Niko** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:13 pm

No problem.
My Scace ships on Monday (according to them).
And the Fluke should ship around the same time so I "should" have them both by the end of next week.
I'll PM you about the Excel sheet when I'm ready to plug in the numbers. It'll be good to have readings from a few people since machines probably vary slightly, we should be able to get a good average and see how these machines are holding their temps.

And one more thing, if you already have a bottomless PF (which I know you do) - the Scace drops in price slightly ($20). No big deal so I opted for a full version so I can dedicate it just to temp reading.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:48 pm

I'll be happy to try but I have a feeling Niko might be more qualified to carry out this task!

Post by **Niko** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:55 pm

You'll do just fine, I have faith in you.
After all you managed to set the S1 up by yourself, right? It's not the easiest thing to do for most people, that's why they go the "pour-over" route.

Sounds like you should have your Scace in about 2 weeks...?
If I remember correctly, I think we had the actual "Mr. Greg Scace" on this thread before the forum crash of '06.

How's the Mazzer mini E working out for with the SpAz? I noticed some were complaining about it on another thread.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:31 pm

Thanks for the faith! (I can't take credit for setting it up myself - I had the help of a plumber:))

Yes, I should have it in the next 2 wks. I'm exciting to play with my Scace toy!

I think the Mini Mazzer E is great. What were the complaints?

Carrie

Post by **Niko** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:16 pm

wantmorecrema wrote:I think the Mini Mazzer E is great. What were the complaints?

Carrie

I think the complaints were on how it distributes the coffee into the PF. I wouldn't know because I haven't tried one yet, I have access to a Mazzer mini E anytime since I live close to some fellow geekers. None of them complained about it, but then again they use E61 machines.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:06 pm

This is true, you have to move the PF around to distribute the grounds in the deep basket. However, it's not such a big deal to me. - Carrie

Post by **Niko** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:36 am

You have to move it around while it's distributing? - Yeah, that kind of defeats one of the major purposes of that grinder in particular. It's still a nice grinder, not worth ditching like some people have. It would be keeper to me if that's the only issue it had but I hate where they put that damn cord. If Mazzer would just add that 2-finger worm gear adjustment, ditch the placement of the cord and chrome it (instead of that "Night of the Living Dead" gray color) - I would be all over it. It's one of the best still no matter how you look at it. I'm going to go over to that fellow geekers house soon and check it out myself with one of my Spaz PF's.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:33 am

Yes, it would be nice to press a button and be able to leave the PF (that's what I thought I would be able to do when I bought it), however, I like that by using the programmed buttons, I'm getting a consistent amount of coffee each time. Also, I had to move the PF around with my rocky too, and this way it's easier because you're not holding a button at the same time.

Hey, I like your ideas for the improvements!

Post by **Niko** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:39 am

wantmorecrema wrote: Hey, I like your ideas for the improvements!

Unfortuanately, Mazzer doesn't listen to people, they do what they want to do, unlike MACAP - who actaully listens to peoples suggestions. Mazzer has nothing to worrry about, yet. But sooner or later they'll get left behind when all those features will appear in someone's grinder. If that happens, the Mazzer will be in the Smithsonian...

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:02 am

That's silly of them! Oh well.

Post by **Niko** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:52 am

I should have the Fluke by Thursday night according to FedEx tracking, the Scace is ??...have a feeling it'll show up at the same time.

Update:
It's Thursday night...got the Fluke on hand.
No Scace yet.
They told me next week sometime, damn.
This Fluke thermometer "shore is purty" in my hands...

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:28 pm

Well, both my Fluke and Scace Device have arrived and I started playing around (not too much time for this...young baby to tend to).

Oddly, after warming up the bottomless PF with Scace Device attached, and doing a warming flush, my 95C never translated into a brew temp higher than 199F!

I wonder what I'm doing wrong...

I'm lending it to Chas so he can do some REAL experiments with this.

Niko - I'm looking forward to seeing your results!

Carrie

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:32 pm

Carrie:

What is your offset temp? If it's set to 2, change it to zero and that should compensate.

But before changing the S1 did you check the calibration of the fluke + TC by alternately checking the temp of boiling water and freezing water?

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:44 pm

Ah...good idea about checking the Fluke and Scace with boiling and freezing water!

Thanks for the hint.

-Carrie

Post by **Niko** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:20 pm

Carrie,
Nice, you already got the Scace! Woohoo.
I just got a tracking number for mine, it'll show up on Tuesday so let the temperature games begin.
I don't know which of my two S1's is off in temp, when I set them at the same temp with each other, the coffee doesn't even taste the same (not even close). So either my Vivaldi's temp is firing too high or the VII is lowballing the temp. I can't confirm without the Scace, this is another good reason to have this thing.

Post by **gdahl** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:58 am

It seems I am missing something here.

My first reaction upon seeing this thread was to wonder why a Vivaldi owner would need a Scace device, since the S1 is supposedly calibrated before shipping, and the V2 already has 1 degree settings.

I guess it wouldn't even surprise me if it turned out that all S1's were off the mark in one direction or the other by a certain amount. But now I'm wondering how these machines could be all over the place with regard to temperature. Does anyone know how Chris is measuring these units for calibration?

It will also be interesting to find out how accurate the Scace/Fluke setups actually are. Niko and Carrie, thanks for your pioneering efforts!

Gary Dahl

Post by **Niko** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

Chris uses a Scace Device to set the temps before shipping. My VII produces great coffee, however, my older S1 is not hitting the mark anymore. This is where the Scace comes into my home environment, it will allow me set the temp back where it belongs without wasting too much coffee and more importantly, time.
Yeah, the VII's should all be hitting the temps correctly when they arrive, but who knows - these things do shift.
This is supposed to be the most accurate way to measure temp with consistency to date.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:29 pm

How Chris tests and adjusts before shipment is described in his own words here:

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/temptest.html

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:34 pm

Gary, I've been meaning to tell you how much I admire that set of four copper shot glasses in your avatar. The perfectly level, filled to the brim crema is amazing. Also, the miniature wheels on the bottom are a nice touch.

Just kidding of course. I'm a band geek, too.

http://www.rimpo.org/chas/tuba.html
http://www.rimpo.org/chas/bandaze.html

Post by **gdahl** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:34 pm

LOL...thanks! My wife and I both enjoyed the tuba pictures. She also noticed that you and I share a number of interests. Cool stuff!

Now I'm trying to imagine a custom 32-inch CoffeeLab tamper.

Gary Dahl

Post by **Niko** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:24 am

Well, I should have the Scace tomorrow night...
getting kind of antsy here so I thought I'd check how cold my Gatorade is. Yep, just as I thought...I like it ICE COLD so I thought I'd make sure the Fluke works and the ice is cold enough.
Apparently both the ice and Fluke work. I'll try skinny dipping the Scace into boiling water before the games begin.

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:21 am

Exciting!

My 5 month old doesn't like the Scace Device and cries every time I attempt to use it so I sent it off to Chas to experiment with.

Have fun!

Post by **Niko** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:03 pm

Well so far...

here's a reading for the 93C setting. It's averaging 199.4 from several readings this pic is from just one of them. I haven't recorded anything yet, probably this weekend when I get more time.

Update: It's Saturday, March 10th and I just ran some tests on my Vivaldi I, as my taste buds suspected...this machine's temps are off the charts by several degrees. I don't know what's happened to it but in the last several weeks the shots were getting bitter. My average temp at the 92C setting is delivering water out at 200 degrees, which means 2.4 degrees (F) higher than it should. I achieved this average by pulling 10 shots and pulling the Scace out for 30 seconds between tests. The Fluke logged the average shot in 30 seconds with a high and a low in those 10 shots pulled. Unlike my VII, this poor hapless VI needs an offset adjustment or just simply set the temp much lower to have the coffee taste the same. More to follow later...

Post by **Niko** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:56 pm

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:24 pm

wantmorecrema wrote:Exciting!

My 5 month old doesn't like the Scace Device and cries every time I attempt to use it so I sent it off to Chas to experiment with.

Have fun!

I was surprised to see that you also included your Fluke, but then it turned out to be a very good thing. My Fluke is a multi-meter/thermometer combo. As such it has banana jack connectors rather than the blade connectors that come on the thermocouple with the Scace which fit your Fluke just fine.

My initial readings were about 2.5C low. I did a boiling water calculation and adjusted the Fluke offset by +0.8C. That still leaves the reading low even after changing my offset from -1C to 0C. This is after just a short while of playing with it. I need to spend more time and be more methodical before I am convinced as to what is going on.

Post by **Niko** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:38 pm

I've been playing with mine still also, the above numbers are from my old S1. It's running a little hot. I achieved those numbers by pulling about 50 shots, pulling the Scace out of the group for 30 second intervals and back at it again, over and over...
I averaged every series out and this is what I came up with for this machine. I can't wait to start on the VII this coming week. I'll try and update the existing posts with this data (or delete old ones) and replace with new rather than post numerous times, so I don't get confused also.

Chas, good luck and let the games begin.
Man this is tedious...

Post by **wantmorecrema** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:26 pm

Chas - Yes, my temps were also running low. I hope we can figure this out!

Niko - Interesting results on the S1...looking forward to learning if your VII temps are also low.

-Carrie

Post by **Niko** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:50 am

Carrie,
My temps initially, also looked low on the VII but after a second go at it - the temps soared up to normal, maybe I was doing something wrong at first.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions yet but the VII seemed pretty spot on over here. It's my other S1 that's running 2.5-3 degrees hotter than the set temps. It's very consistent though (really good news), I'll pull another 50 shots in a row next weekend on it to confirm the above numbers.

Post by **Weska** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:38 pm

Interesting work, guys. Thanks for tolerating the tedium, Niko et al., and for publishing your results here where we can all get something from it.

Of course, I've got the S1, but from Bologna not through Chris, and it's great to see that the S1 is not left out of this series of tests. My hope is that the temperatures will hold consistently despite being far from the nominal values. If that's the case, then only our discrimination of the flavors is holding us back.

Long ago--so long that it may have changed (but I doubt it)--when I was learning laboratory sciences, it always impressed me that all the instruments had to be calibrated every day. This gave me the impression that nominal values matching real ones is the exception and not the rule.

Post by **Niko** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:56 pm

I know these things change and drift now and then, but I knew something really changed on my S1 when it was relocated to another climate zone. I don't know if that had anything to do with it but I agree with you, rather than simply changing the offset I'm going to follow my taste buds for now. The Scace really helped confirm something my taste was telling me all along, the machine is running hot so I turned it down a couple of notches. It's back to making superb espresso.
One thing I noticed with my S1, if you look at the 94C curve above, it's really scary how steady that temp is maintaining. It simply DID NOT waver throughout the shot when I was testing it many times over.
I remember earlier in the week when I locked and loaded the Scace into the VII's group, I had a similar experience with the 93C setting, it gave me the chills when the temp was maintaining within .1 degree fahrenheit (+/-) throughout a couple of quick shots....OOooohhh (chills again)....
----------
Mwuhahahaha!

Update: Monday, March 12th
Just tested a series of 12 shots on my VII on the 93C setting.
The numbers are staggering, I have to run another series tomorrow to confirm but the temperature curve on this machine is almost a flat line, it refuses to move more than +/- .2 degree fahrenheit.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:24 pm

I just finished another round of testing with Carrie's Scace and Fluke and I am baffled. I originally tested my VII using my homebrew temp set up which consists of a thermocouple lead run up through the bottom of a std PF, then through a circular piece of sponge with the end of the TC even with the top of the sponge.

This setup showed that the -1C offset that Chris Coffee set using their Scace was the most accurate for my machine and that the Offset setting and the main temperature settings tracked very well.

However, when I use Cary's Scace on my machine even after validating the calibration in boiling water, I get temps when measured from 91-97C that range from 1-1.5C low with the Offset changed to 0C.

After measuring with the Scace, I rechecked the settings using my temp measuring device but using Carrie's Fluke and recalibrating in boiling water. The results tracked very closely with my original measurements.

The bottomline is that the temperature measurements between my device and Carrie's Scace are in the 2.5-3C range and I am baffled trying to figure out which one is more accurate. I think for now I'll compromise and use a 0C offset and just adjust for taste as required.

BTW: The temp of boiling water decreases by .1C for each 100ft increase in altitude. I am at 600ft so I set the Fluke for 99.4C with the Scace inserted in boiling water.

Post by **averian** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:44 pm

Greetings all!

A good friend of mine just picked up a S1VII so I'm following this thread with great interest. I have an e61 machine, and I'm still trying to figure out the temperature profile on that beast, so getting a baseline idea of how the S1VII handles would help a lot in attempting to correlate temperature to our tasting notes.

If anyone is able and willing, I would love to see more data from the Scace device on the S1VII's intrashot (the one from 1 second to 30 seconds polling every second in different duty cycles) and maybe even a repeat of Chas's intershot profile (ability of the machine to hit prescribed temp repeatedly) with the Scace tool to see if there is any change there versus the thermocouple in basket trick. Cheers!

Post by **Niko** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:15 pm

Where in the Bay Area are you?
I don't have much time these days but if you're close enough to me, you can see either Vivaldi (I or II) in action with the Scace.
Time's been an issue lately so I might even shoot you a video of it in action, this will show you numbers the Fluke is recording while the shot pulls.

I now have 3 Vivaldi's on hand...
Mwuhahahaha!

Post by **averian** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Niko,

I'm in Marin, not sure if that is going to be close or not. 3 Vivaldi's...hmm, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing eh?! A video of the Vivaldi with the Scace in action would be great. Thanks!

-Mark

Post by **Niko** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:02 pm

Mark,

I've got a video crew coming over in the next week or so, I'll make sure the Scace is busted out for some video action.
I'm in the Peninsula so it's a little out of the way for you considering the traffic in this day and age in the Bay Area. I'll make a short DVD of it, any particular temp settings?

The 3rd Vivaldi is not really mine but I had to throw that in there since it's in my family. I still have only 2 Vivaldi's...poor me.

Niko

Post by **averian** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:44 pm

Peninsula...ya that is a bit of a trek, but wow, a film crew, that sounds exciting!

Temp settings wise, maybe somewhere near the middle, like 94 C. I think the part that would be most interesting would be to see a shot a pulled from idle without a blank shot, and then at a few different duty cycles.

So perhaps a shot after a minute to two, and 5 minutes or so later after that just to try and get an idea for how the dynamics of the system are at getting/keeping everything singing the same temperature. Cheers,

-Mark

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:11 pm

When you guys did your temp testing how long had the machine warmed up? Did you notice a difference between a 1 hour warm up & say a 2-3 hour warm up? Did you have the steam boiler running at the same time or just the brew boiler?

Post by **Niko** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:18 pm

For me, the steam boiler was on.
The machine was turned on at least an hour prior to any tests. I wait for the cups to on the warmer to reach burn status :D
Makes no difference after that, 3hrs or 6hrs - it was all the same after that 1st hour for me.

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:48 pm

I was getting diferent readings today at different times. I thought it was due to the length of warm up but it seems to be whether I have the steam boiler on or not. Just running one temp all day, 93*C, I found that when the s/b was turned on I could only get within 3*to 4*F of the desired temp. Multiple flushes did no good, in fact the temp would drop off after 4 or 5 as much as 6*F. Turn off the s/b, wait a couple minutes, do a flush or two & the temp was right up where it should be. :?

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:42 am

That does sound weird :?

My temps are more stable (ever so slightly) with the steam boiler on.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:12 am

I would have thought that would be the case with the extra heat of the s/b. I'm wondering if there is an electrical issue in the 20 amp circuit & will be checking that today. Got to wonder about the accuracy of the temp sending unit in the boiler as the 93* light would indicate it had reached temp even when my readings were pretty low. Hard to believe the brew head would be colder when the s/b is hot!

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:24 am

You may want to review the information on this page:

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/temptest.html

Then near the bottom of that page click on the link to get to the document that explains how to check and/or adjust the offset temp. You will at least be interested to see how Chris Coffee set your machine.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:51 am

Already did & its set to 0* offset so no where to go in V2 mode.

The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

Greg Scace Thermofilter for the S1

Greg Scace Thermofilter for the S1

They do have them...

It arrived...