No more 20 amp Vivaldi

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slo
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No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:15 am

Taken from the Chris Coffee website:

"As of August 2017, this machine can only be used in 15 amp mode but will continue to have a 20 amp plug on the machine, so a converter cord will be included with all Vivaldi machines."

Anybody knows why that is?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:02 pm

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that before. I see that the Dream still shows 15/20A mode and it should be pretty much the same power drawn as the V2. I wonder if there was really a problem with 20A mode or if they are just trying to add more differentiation from the Dream?

I also wonder how they implemented the change. If they just removed the 15/20A switch from the controller box, with some additional work, it would be possible to remove and open the controller box and add or remove a jumper. My first and very early S1 used a jumper. When they later put the controller board in a plastic box they added a slide on connector for connecting to the two jumper pins. The other end had the switch that bolted into a hole in the box.

On the other hand this machine with both boilers on, the controller board powered on, and the pump motor operating pulled almost exactly 20A at 110V. My house runs more like 122V so it would pull more than 20A. Even with that I never had problems including never tripping the breaker, but it is a marginal way to be operating.

My GS/3 is only a 15A machine and it's boilers combined draw more current than does the S1. However, they have much smarter control of the dual PIDS and seem to pulse the operation rapidly back and forth so you get performance like simultaneous operation without the boilers actually both operating at the same time. They surely didn't do anything like this with the newer V2s. More likely they had enough anecdotal evidence over the years from 15A users that performance in that mode was good enough.

Rather than continue this trail of speculation, I'll drop Chris and email tomorrow and ask.
Chas
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goodboyr
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by goodboyr » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 pm

See my note below in a other thread. There are electrical components that are only rated for 15 amps.

viewtopic.php?t=2366

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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:22 pm

goodboyr wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 pm
See my note below in a other thread. There are electrical components that are only rated for 15 amps.
I noticed your post and this is what reminded me that I saw earlier on H-B that CC's machine would now only be 15 Amp.

How can you tell that the connectors are only 15 amp rated?

FWIW, it has been on 20 amp, 24/7 since day 1, August 2009 with no issue.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:32 pm

In the early days the machines imported from Italy did not have an internal fuse. Chris Coffee was adding them before customer shipment. I am not sure if this has changed and, if so, when it did.
Chas
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goodboyr
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by goodboyr » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:37 pm

I removed the fuse holder to clean the connection. Its marked on the side "2 to 15 amps".

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:57 am

I sent an email to Chris yesterday and asked what became of the V2 20A mode. I got an automated reply that he is out of the country for most of January. I assume he is either golfing at some exotic locale, visiting espresso vendors in Italy, or both!

I just resent the question to his tech that mainly supports the LaSpaz machines so we'll see what he has to say.
Chas
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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Thank you Chas.
I am really curious about this.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:55 pm

According to Tim Catalfalmo at CCS, the V2 and V2 Mini failed their most recent ETL/NSF certification at 20A but passed at 15A. NSF is a sanitation rating for using in commercial operations so that really couldn't have been the part that failed. There is no sanitary difference in that area between 15A and 20A operation. Similarly, there is no basic electrical difference between 15A mode and 20A mode other than the total current draw. So I suspect that is the issue.

Tim said that he thinks LaSpaziale is working on a fix for future machines. Seems like a difficult software fix. They may have to do something like drop the steam boiler element to 1250W. I don't think they'd want to reduce the size of the group boiler element.

On the other hand, the Dream passed with both boilers having the current heating element sizes so maybe there is something that can be done in software or else it really is something other than total current draw.

Hopefully I can get a more complete answer from Chris when he returns. The techs may be afraid to say too much, but I think Chris will give me the low down.
Chas
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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:14 am

Thank again Chas.
Hope that the ETL did not find something wrong with the design.
Another point is that although the Dream may have passed the test, it is also now only available in 15 Amp. So it does not seem to be resolved by software.
On the CCS site, only the Dream T is still available in 15 or 20 Amp.
Even more curious now.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:24 pm

Chris finally answered my email. He says that the only machine that he paid to have ETL/NSF certified was the plumbed Vivaldi 2 because he also rents and sells that machine to light commercial customers that require the certification. Recently they tightened the spec so that the Vivaldi 2 no longer passes at 20A. He indicated that the Mini and the Dream are still sold as 15A/20A machines because he refuses to sell them commercially.

He is working on seeing what it takes and how much it would cost to get the Vivaldi to pass the tests at 20A but is not too concerned since there have been no customer complaints about the way the machine works at 15A.

On the other hand the CCS website does indicate that the Mini is also 15A only so I have emailed Chris back to see if it's just a website issue or if is a real limitation.
Chas
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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:08 am

Thank you Chas.
CCS did not indicate which part of the tests it no longer pass?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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chas
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by chas » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:35 am

I have no idea which test didn't pass.

I also received more info from Chris. He only originally asked for certification on the plumbed S1 and therefore requested LaSpaziale to mod the plumbed version for 15A only. However, it appears they also made the Mini 15A only. Now he's waiting to find out if this means that the Mini also has the ETL/NSF certification for 15A operation.

I was wondering if LaSpaziale was making this mod or if CCS was just doing a simple mod in house. Now we know. LaSpaz could still be doing a simple mod of just removing the switch. If this is all they did, there is still a hardware jumper on the controller board that could be installed for any home buyers that want to make the mod. The other thing they could have done is make a simple microprocessor code change to not read the state of the jumper on power up and just run in 15A mode. In the latter case there's nothing that could be done to force 20A mode.

I guess we'll have to wait for some enterprising buyer of a new V2 to check it out and let us know!
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.23 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
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slo
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by slo » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Thank you Chas for taking the time to follow up.
Mine has been running with a 20A feed for many years and no issues.
Just in case anyone had second thoughts about running on 20A...
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

goodboyr
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Re: No more 20 amp Vivaldi

Post by goodboyr » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:30 am

See my message earlier in this thread....

My dream has been on 20 since the beginning too. Recently the fuse blew, and that's when I discovered the cheap plastic fuse holders had a 15 amp rating. (Some melting of the plastic occurred when the fuse blew). They are quite flimsy and the internal contacts showed signs of overheating. So I replaced with proper rated fuse holders.

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Bob
La Spaziale Dream and Baratza Sette 270W

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