Boiler Insulation Idea

[V2owner]

Here's what I used for insulation on my Vivaldi II...it's made of silicone by Oxo for dish draining. I used Stainless Steel cable ties to hold it in place.

It seems to be effective, won't absorb moisture, doesn't conduct electricity, and looks good.

I make a paper template first, then cut the silicone with a sharp Xacto knife. Alllow a little extra length to compensate for the larger outside circumference.

It works for other brands of espresso machines too.

[Dan Bollinger]

My preference for insulation is ceramic felt. I haven't done this on my new VII yet, but plan to when I remove the side panels for painting.

On my old Isomac Millenium, a quarter inch of ceramic felt reduced electrical consumption almost 50%.

[Johnlyn]

Is there any down side to insulating the boilers? why do they not do that at the factory?

[chas]

I used some type of gray high density, high temp foam that was manufactured specifically for this type of application. I can't seem to lay my hands on the measurements I made at the time, but I remember that the time between normal steam boiler heat cycles was much longer with the insulation that it was without.

[Dan Bollinger]

Is there any down side to insulating the boilers? why do they not do that at the factory?

I don't know of any downside except the espresso warming tray won't be as hot! There are two upsides, first is the obvious energy savings, the second is that the inside of the espresso machine doesn't get as hot, so all the plastic and rubber components will last longer.

[Johnlyn]

Is there any down side to insulating the boilers? why do they not do that at the factory?

I don't know of any downside except the espresso warming tray won't be as hot! There are two upsides, first is the obvious energy savings, the second is that the inside of the espresso machine doesn't get as hot, so all the plastic and rubber components will last longer.

Makes sense to me... but I then I wonder why CCS hasn't done that. They have on other machines. Now I wonder if they have insulated the boilers on the Dream? and again, if they haven't is it just to keep the cups warm??

I'm a fan of energy saving so I will consider doing this.

[Endo]

LaSpaziale doesn't insulate the boilers because the heat serves a purpose (heating the cups). Also, the S1 is so energy efficient, that the addition of insulation makes a difference of only a few pennies a day in the summer and no difference in the winter (since you are already paying to heat the house). Most people feel a few pennies is a small price to pay for warm cups.

Only reason I can see for insulating is to reduce the heater cycle time. This was a bigger deal when the S1 had a cooling fan for the steam boiler triac, but now, I don't see any reason to insulate at all. In fact, it's probably less green since you are adding an additional product that must be manufactured and shipped to your home.

[Dan Bollinger]

LaSpaziale doesn't insulate the boilers because the heat serves a purpose (heating the cups).

Endo, How do you know that about La Spaz? What's your source? Are you a company rep or did you learn this about the company somewhere? Inquiring minds want to know!

The reason I ask is that I've always thought that heating the cups was an artifact of waste heat, and not part of the original purpose. In other words, the first espresso machines were probably not insulated and the top got hot. Some bright Italian fellow realized that he might as well put this wasted heat to work. So the energy loss came first, and heated cups came second, not the other way around.

[chas]

I didn't really observe that the cups were noticeably cooler after insulating the steam boiler. Of course I have always loosely laid a dish towel over the cups so this probably helped. I also made one other set of measurements 1) with and without the towel 2) Same measurements before and after insulating the steam boiler I put a thermocouple in the area above the triac boards and next to the controller board. I wanted to see the impact on the temperature around the electronics. There was no noticeable difference with any of the four measurements.

I was mostly concerned about the no insulation, towel over the cups condition. I was afraid I might be trapping the heat inside and overheating the electronics. Apparently the convection of cool room air coming in through the slots under the triac boards keeps the bottom right side of the innards about the same as room temp. Any impact is only near the top of the machine where it doesn't really matter.

[V2owner]

I would guess that the manufacturer doesn't insulate the boiler to save money. I noticed that they mostly used zinc plated screws inside the machine instead of stainless...probably saved a dollar.

I believe that manufacturers are becoming more green in response to public sentiment. I have a Rancilio Epoca E1 which is insulated in silicone foam. That would work better than the silicone mat that I used, but the foam is very expensive.

I was puzzled by the comment about insulation being less green...no facts were cited and it is illogical.

If you want to nitpick, there is less room around the boiler to install the connections once it is insulated...harder to get wrenches in there. There's still plenty of heat escaping, because the top & bottom, pipes and brew boiler are mostly uninsulated.

I wish there was a way to turn the boiler off so it doesn't come on when the timer turns on the machine...what's the point of the timer if it still requires your attention to operate the machine the way you want to?

[JohnB]

When I insulated the steam boiler in my S1V2 I saw a 42% reduction in heat cycles & the cup warming area was much cooler. Ended up covering the cup area with a hand towel leaving the front section exposed for cooling. I used K.O. Wool which is designed for insulating boilers. I don't think I'd want to wrap a product around a hot boiler that wasn't rated for hot applications.
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=860#p12484

[Dan Bollinger]

I use ceramic felt (they call it paper), rated at 2300°F.

v2owner, you could install a SPST switch on the steam boiler heater lead and leave it turned off. That way the boiler won't come up to heat.

[Endo]

I was puzzled by the comment about insulation being less green...no facts were cited and it is illogical.

Consider the facts:

First read the post JohnB provided and also the power analysis done by Chas (on the former VII site). You'll see Chas experienced a savings of about $30 per year when adding insulation. If you are heating your house, then there is no savings at all. If you must heat up your cups by other means (like using brew water or tap hot water), then also, forget any savings. So you may wish to cut this $30 number in half.

Now consider the carbon footprint reduction of a $15 electricty reduction per year. In Quebec the power is hydro-electric produced. Compare that with producing and transporting the insulation materials you need for your project from China to the US.

Still think you're being green? No so obvious is it?

[chas]

v2owner, you could install a SPST switch on the steam boiler heater lead and leave it turned off. That way the boiler won't come up to heat.

I initially thought of something simpler than this if the steam boiler will never be used - just unplug the connector between the controller board and the triac board which will prevent the triac board from ever trying to switch on 115V to the steam boiler element. HOWEVER, so long as the controller board thinks the Boiler is supposed to be on (which it will in the above case), it will throw a blocking alarm if the boiler doesn't come up to 60C within 5 minutes after the controller board signals the triac board to turn on the steam boiler heater element. Since this is a blocking alarm, the controller will then turn off the machine with the alarm LEDs 19-20-21 turned on.

You'd have to move the steam boiler temperature sensor over to the group boiler in order to be able to disconnect the steam boiler without throwing an alarm. That way the group boiler would also heat up the steam boiler temp sensor and fake out the controller board. The controller board would them think that the steam boiler was up to temperature and would not alarm.

[V2owner]

Endo..you see, we're not very green here in Minnesota because we still use coal to make our electricity.

I also wish there was a neat solution to keep the boiler off. My best idea has been to ask my wife (who gets up earlier than me) to turn it off every day. One benefit of the triac fan is that it lets her know that the boiler is on.

[jfrescki]

Is there any down side to insulating the boilers? why do they not do that at the factory?

I think I remember a discussion on HB that factory insulation would affect the ETL certification, but don't quote me on that.

John

[chas]

Interesting and hard to understand if true, since so many other machines come with factory installed insulation and have ETL certification.

My GS3 has the most "interesting" factory insulation I have ever seen. I guess it could be considered the Max Frugal approach. Only the top half of the steam boiler is insulated. Since the boiler is horizontal perhaps that is good enough.

[jfrescki]

You're right, it seems odd, so I googled it. This may be what I was remembering from the Elektra A3 review on HB:

"Note: Chris Nachtrieb, owner of Chris' Coffee Service, asked the manufacturer to add boiler insulation to better meet his customers' expectations of energy efficiency. They replied that modifying the construction of the machine would unfortunately invalidate its UL and ETL certification, which requires a costly and lengthy process to obtain. HB member Bob Barraza outlined instructions in Insulating the Elektra A3's boiler."

[JohnB]

My GS3 has the most "interesting" factory insulation I have ever seen. I guess it could be considered the Max Frugal approach. Only the top half of the steam boiler is insulated. Since the boiler is horizontal perhaps that is good enough.

That's exactly what Kees did with the Speedster. A layer of insulation covers the top only. The bottom is "insulated" by the bottom stainless cover & the ends are partially covered by the alloy support structure. Boiler cycles between 2.15 bar & 2.25 bar once a minute but the heating element only takes 4 seconds to bring it back up to the set temp/pressure.

[Endo]

You're right, it seems odd, so I googled it. This may be what I was remembering from the Elektra A3 review on HB:

"Note: Chris Nachtrieb, owner of Chris' Coffee Service, asked the manufacturer to add boiler insulation to better meet his customers' expectations of energy efficiency. They replied that modifying the construction of the machine would unfortunately invalidate its UL and ETL certification, which requires a costly and lengthy process to obtain. HB member Bob Barraza outlined instructions in Insulating the Elektra A3's boiler."

That sort of makes sense. If you add something to the insides, you'd have to redo the fire portion of the certification (demonstrate it is not flammable, etc).

Note on the new Dream machine, the internals are essentially the same, so they likely don't need to add the cost of recert since they can claim the changes were only external and cosmetic in nature (in other words, function is unchanged). That's why the price is roughly the same.

[chas]

I asked Chris and he checked with AnnaMaria at LaSpaz. The new Dreams will NOT be UL/ETL certified when first sold due to all the internal changes. However, they expect the certification to be faster and less expensive since the machines are mostly the same as when initially certified.

So I guess even just wrapping the boilers would be enough to need a recert.