water treatment

[richardcoffee]

I've been using the Best Cup M in-tank water filter and softener that Chris sells (for my mini). It's fairly costly - but the most aggravating thing about it is fitting the tubing onto the water intake. The tubing breaks easily and definitely doesn't slip on easily. I happened on the fact that 1st line is selling something called an osmotic scale reduction pack - which you apparently just plunk down into the tank. Has anyone here used it? What do you think about it?
Thanks.
Dick

[greenkiwi]

I'm definitely interested to hear what people are doing in this regard. I'm getting a new machine soon and was wondering what filtering I needed.

I live in San Francisco and throw the water through a britta filter at the moment. Just want to make sure I start off on the right track.

-a

[Endo]

Brita won't soften for longer than about 1 month. Try this:

If your water is 5 grains hardness or less, you can just use tap water. If it's above 5 grains, you can either:

1. Descale your machine more frequently (once a year).
2. Use the supplied in-reservoir BestCup water softener ($20 each every 3 months).
3. Install a water softener system under your sink (route it to a small tap next to your standard sink tap).
4. Buy Reverse Osmosis (RO water) at the super market for about $4 for 5 gallons (mix it 50/50 with the tap water).

I switch between options 2 and 4. (For the last 9 months I've been running BestCup reservoir filters, but I'm on my last one now). I'll probably switch back to option 4 (50/50 RO) when the filters are all used up.

If I have time, I may try option 3 and install a water softener system under my sink this year (just for fun).

[richardcoffee]

So, this is exactly why I'm interested in the osmotic scale reduction pack from 1st line. I take it you're not impressed Endo? Also, don't you have a hard time getting the tubing of the in-tank softener onto the water intake? How do you do it?

[Endo]

So, this is exactly why I'm interested in the osmotic scale reduction pack from 1st line. I take it you're not impressed Endo?

The Brita does have some softening effect. It's good for about 1 month (will bring my 150 ppm water to about 80 ppm). After that the softening effect is used up and it simply becomes a filter.

But you bring up a good point, perhaps 3 are cheaper than a paying $25 for one BestCup filter that mut be replaced every 3 months.

Also, don't you have a hard time getting the tubing of the in-tank softener onto the water intake? How do you do it?

Nope. No problem. I leave it on most of the time and just remove the cartridge. The first time I installed it I soaked it in hot water to soften it, but it went on no problem, if you start from one side and work it around.

[richardcoffee]

Aha! The hot water did the trick. Although, I wouldn't say it's no problem. For an old man with bad eyes and shaky hands - it's a hard task. I'm thinking seriously about the under sink solution. How the osmotic scale reduction pack from 1st Line differs from a Brita pitcher is still not clear to me. Thanks for the help.

[Endo]

I'm looking at using this special "professional" version of the Brita filter called the "AquaAroma Crema" (for my Olympia Cremina primarily, but I will use it on the Mini Vivaldi as well if it works out).

http://www.brita.net/professional_detai ... id=272&cat

Brita says it's designed specifically for removing hardness from espresso machines and the engineers at Olympia apparently are using it and recommending it for their Olympia Maximatic. (And these Swiss guys are way more picky than LaSpaziale).

Know I just need to find how much they cost and if I can get them in Canada.

[Endo]

The Brita AquaAroma Crema seems to be the same softener used on the Saeco super-autos called the "Intenza":

http://www.amazon.com/Saeco-Intenza-Rep ... B003R2TNYC

http://www.espressoplanet.com/coffee-an ... ilter.html

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Saeco- ... 562-10.htm

With this softener you get a little test strip to measure your local water hardness and then you can choose a dial selection on the bottom of the filter (A, B or C), to deliver the required water softening to suit your taste. It seems to last from 2 to 3 months (same as the stock BestCup filter) and is good for anywhere from 2000 to 6000 litres (depending on the dial selection).

At roughly $14 each, I think it a better solution that the $25 BestCup filter.....IF it can be made to fit.

It's a "bottom suction" catridge like the BestCup. So if it fit the existing holder, that would be fantastic. But I highly doubt they are the same bottom diameter.

Maybe I can buy a cheap replacment Saeco super-auto reservoir and adapt it to sit inside the Mini reservoir??? Hmmmm

[JohnB]

Why not just install a generic softener/carbon system like CC offers & run it to a dedicated cold water faucet on your sink? I use this set up in our kitchen to refill our hot water pot & the Microcasa. With an inexpensive manual mixing valve you could add hard water back in after the softener to set the hardness level where ever you wanted it. The cartridges are cheap & last 8-12 months depending on usage.

[Endo]

Why not just install a generic softener/carbon system like CC offers & run it to a dedicated cold water faucet on your sink?

Yeah. That's option 3 on my list.

I agree that now that I have a couple of machines to refill, this is probably the most sensible route. I'll probably install a long braided hose that hides under the sink as well so I can bring the tap to my Cremina and get rid of the funnel.

I've got a couple other projects I'm working on right now, so it will probably have to wait until next year.

By the way, I checked out the Brita/Saeco softener. Won't fit very easily in the Mini. Of well.

I may use regular Brita filters for a little while, once my BestCup filter runs out. They are only $25 for 5, so they are not a bad option. They are composed of a membrane for filtering particles, charcol to reduce chemicals (and odors), as well as some softening pellets. The softener uses a hydrogen ion exchange method that is not as effective as the usual sodium exchange, but still, they'll drop the hardness down by 2/3's at first, then the softening effect drops off to about 1/3 after about 1 month. In other words, it will bring my 120ppm water down to 40ppm, and I'll throw it out after one month once it drops off to 80ppm.

How the osmotic scale reduction pack from 1st Line differs from a Brita pitcher is still not clear to me. Thanks for the help.

The pack they sell at 1st line is simply made up of pellets with sodium ions bonded lightly on the surface. These ions are exchanged with the Mg and Ca ions in the water to soften it. There appears to be more pellets in the pack than you would find in a Brita (which is only about 1/3 filled with softener), so I would assume it's good for about 3 months before it needs changing.

[Endo]

This may be the best and cheapest solution of them all:

Rancilio sells a little plastic canister full of the softening pellets that you can attach to the water intake line in the reservoir.

http://espresso-press.com/?p=215

The best part is that you can soak it in salt water to regenerate the softening effect (just like the big version for a house water softener system!). You need to regenerate it with salt every month or so apparently. It even looks like the Mini reservoir tube would slip right onto the Silvia softener. I may combine it with Brita filtered water so that that the water is filtered of chlorine and flouride odours as well.

I'll see if I can pick one up tomorrrow when I visit my Rancilio dealer to see how effective and long lasting it is (with my hardness testing aquarium kit).

[richardcoffee]

Endo, We'll be anxious to see if you can make it work in the Mini. It's not clear to me how you would connect it. But I do suffer from a lack of imagination - about some things anyway.

[Endo]

Endo, We'll be anxious to see if you can make it work in the Mini. It's not clear to me how you would connect it.

There is a male end connector on the Rancilio Silvia softener. If I remember correctly my Silvia intake hose is the same diameter silicone tubing used to connect the Mini VIvaldi reservoir inlet to the BestCup softener cartridge holder. In other words, just connect it to the tubing if I'm not mistaken.

I'm pretty sure there are only resin pellets inside, so it should actually be less restrictive than the BestCup. It wouldn't do any filtering or removing of chemicals, but it you want that, you could simply filter the water first through a Brita before pouring it in the resvervoir.

Still, I think the underwater 10" filters are the best solution.....even for the Mini. I was looking at this "RainFresh" one today at Canadian Tire.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/8 ... ?locale=en

Comes with a little tap, but you would still need to replace one filter with a 10" softener. I'm not sure where to get one of these softeners in Montreal though.

[Abnuceals]

I personnaly used the BestCup M in-tank water filter and softener provided with my mini. It is an hassle-free solution in my mind. It is not cheap to replace but the water in Gatineau is not hard. And I mix it (50-50) with demineralized water. I like the taste of this water and I don't think it could harm my mini. I evaluate (with my coffee consumption and the softness of my mix) that I could change the water filter only at the first birth of my machine but it could be a safer move to replace it after 10 months. Not bad at all... I talked to Joshua (Espressoplanet) and they now provide the BestCup M at the same price C.C. is doing. So, it is no more a problem to have the BestCup filters in Canada.
Did some of you ever try demineralized water in the Mini ? I think some people have different opinions on that question (namely taste of water, potential technical problems etc). The fact I mix it with regular water minimize those problems and the taste is great because Gatineau's water taste chlorine sometimes

[Endo]

I would not use demineralized water. It is EXTREMELY corrosive and will quickly eat away at your internal parts. This is much worse than scale IMO (since scale can be removed).

If you mix it 50/50 with tap though, you should be OK.

CaffeTech in Alberta sells the BestCup softener in Canada as well. But they were charging $35 each! That's great if EspressoPlanet is now selling them for $25. I've been able to get them for $20 from CC (when I bought my timer as well).

Still, if it's only softening you want, it would be hard to beat the in-tank Rancilio softener at $18 (with infinite re-use). And if you want extra filtering of chemicals and odours provided by a charcol filter as well, you can filter the water first using a cheap $5 Brita filter before pouring it in the reservoir. The Rancilio does come with a screen and sediment filter as well, but that's only for small particles.

Rancilio Silvia Water Softener

rancilio.jpg (15.39 KiB) Viewed 31381 times

[Abnuceals]

Yes I know that demineralized water can be corrosive and this is the reason why I do not use it pure. But strangely, in a former life, I used it pure for many years in a little Lapavoni Eurobar (don't judge me please). Before I resell the Eurobar I sent it to the shop for a checkup and the guy told me it was like a new one. So I'm a little bit confused about the bad effects of D.W. But with such a bad reputation, I don't take chance anymore. The mini was much more expensive than an Eurobar. And if I remember well, before I bought my Mini, I asked Chris about D.W. and they told me it was not a problem if it was mix whit tap water.
But I definitely do not close the door to an experiment with the Rancilio softener or the Brita system

[Endo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were doing the wrong thing with your 50/50 mix. I was just warning others who might be considering PURE demineralized water.

BTW, I orderer a Rancilio softener from the Greanbeanery for $16.95. I plan to re-charge it with a 3 teaspoon salt solution once a month. I'll replace the whole softener once a year (maybe every 1.5 years) just to get rid of the filtered junk and generally keep things clean.

I'll post a picture if everything fits (but I don't forsee any issues).

If all goes well, I'll save $100 a year....who-hoo!

[richardcoffee]

BTW I contacted Brita about their AquaAroma Crema filter. Not surprisingly, although somewhat inexplicably, they told me they have no plans to sell this product in the U.S. Too bad. Endo, I'll be anxious to hear of the success of your Rancilio plan. It would surely be less of a hassle then the under sink solution.

[Endo]

Here's the rechargeable $20 Rancilio Softener installed in my machine. Fits perfectly on the BestCup hose. The catridge tends to float a little, so you can hold it at the bottom using the BestCup catridge adapter suction cup on the side of the reservoir (as seen in the photo below).

I measured my TDS at the tap as 142 ppm (prior to softening). I'll see how much it is after 1 week of use and again after each month (using my aquarium softeness testing kit....which measures TDS after ion exchange with NaCl resin softeners).

Rancilio versus BestCup Softeners

2011-08-10 001 (500x366).jpg (106.29 KiB) Viewed 31345 times

Rancilio Softener Installed

2011-08-10 009 (500x358).jpg (124.92 KiB) Viewed 31345 times

TDS level before softening

2011-08-10 011 (500x386).jpg (101.44 KiB) Viewed 31345 times

[richardcoffee]

well, I have sprung for the under sink softener system with a faucet up above. I've got it 1/2 installed - waiting for a young man with a stronger back to finish the job. These old bones just don't like working under a sink. I think I'm going to like this approach.

[richardcoffee]

Ah .......it's done. I got tired of waiting for the young man and, as it's raining today, decided to complete the job myself. Now, I'm thinking, " this was easy." If I had only known, I'd have sprung for the plumbed in version.

[JeffPersson]

Endo,

Any 6month status updates on the Rancilio filter you switched over to?

[Endo]

I'm still using the re-useable rancilio softener. I recharge it every month by soaking it for 5 minutes in a salt solution, then rinsing. I also use a Brita water jug which I change the filter every 3 months. It does a little extra softening as well. I have Brita water handy for my Cremina (which I can easily inspect with a flashlight and open the boiler once a year to manually descale).

I have no idea how well the Rancilio is working, but I'm optimistic it will work out. I'll open the brew boiler again in a year and let you know then if I see any difference compared to the expensive BestCup M filters.

[Abnuceals]

Endo, I'm still looking for other options than Bestcup filters. I like the idea of Rancilio softener. Where did you get it ? I don't see it in the Ottawa-Gatineau area. Is there a specific store in Montreal that provides it ? Maybe next weekend I'll play tourist in Montreal, bringing a red square and a casserole.

[Endo]

Any place that sells Rancilio's (like Idrinkcoffee or Espressoplanet in Ontario) will likely sell and ship you a softener for $15 or so. Though I can't say for sure yet if it works (I'm combining it with the Brita water as well). All I can say for now is, no funny boiler scale noises yet after about 6 months use.

I got mine at Cafe Union in Montreal, but it looked like the only one in the shop since it was pretty dirty when I got it. They don't stock many parts, just things like cups, accessories and coffee. You could try Espresso Mali or Faema as well. They are right near by Cafe Union.

Good luck visiting Montreal for the Grand Prix this weekend. We can use the tourism. The student protests and massive traffic jams have killed off a lot this summer. The cafe scene is "rocking" tough. MANY new places in the last year. Could be approaching the best Cafe scene in North America soon!

[GDK]

Hi Endo, are you still using the Rancilio filter, and what is your opinion so far?

Looking at how you mount the filter above - it is clever. Do you think that pump does not suck in some air when water is low? That opening on the cylinder's bottom is large.

I just ordered a pack of six (for $80) and am anxious to hear if I wasted my money