Vario and Vivaldi

[Endo]

The names seem to go together.

Anybody interested in the new Baratza Vario grinder? Seems like it might be a nice grinder to pair with the Vivaldi. I think I might have jumped the gun getting my Mazzer Super Jolly. If this little grinder works out, it sure would free up a lot of space in my kitchen.

[JohnB]

Lots of hype about the new Vario but why would you expect it to compare to your SJ? Note that no one had an answer on the H-B thread when I asked about the grind quality of the 54mm flat burrs as compared to the 64mm burrs in the SJ. There is no reason to expect the same grind quality as the SJ or even the Mini. The new Compak K3 has 58mm burrs & no one is comparing it to the SJ.

When I look at the Vario I see a plastic bodied, belt driven grinder with lots of electronic settings I don't need & little levers moving plastic pieces to adjust the burrs. None of which I find appealing. How about the fact that all of your settings get wiped out each time the grinder is unplugged or your power goes out. We get brief (30 seconds) power outages regularly around here. When I look at my SJs I see an incredibly well built, direct drive grinder with a very straight forward micro/macro adjustment that is famous for its grind quality & dependability. As far as size goes I doubt anybody on here has a smaller kitchen then we currently live with but my 2 SJs fit in just fine.

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Remember all the hype about the new Vibi DB last year? Remember the reality? Never be an early adopter!!

[Niko]

Nice scale, John!

...it's the little things that make all the difference

[Endo]

All very true. I don't expect the Vario will de-throne my SJ. I have to install the SJ a little far away from my Mini Vivaldi due to the grinder's large size (see photo). The Vario would fit nicely right next to my machine, but I won't sacrifice taste for a little less walking distance.

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[JohnB]

Lose the hopper & it looks like it would fit under the cupboard. You could set up a knock box in the drawer to clear some counter space.

[Endo]

Lose the hopper & it looks like it would fit under the cupboard. You could set up a knock box in the drawer to clear some counter space.

Yeah, tried that. It fit (just barely), but I couldn't get the beans in very easily. Besides, I don't really like the look of the grinder without the hopper. To me it doesn't look like a grinder without it.

The drawer knockbox is a good idea! I didn't think of that.

The next thing on my accessory list is the Bumper tamping stand. The single spout is a PITA to tamp. After that comes the naked PF and then pre-infusion.

[JohnB]

My knockbox:

drawer knockbox.jpg (35.37 KiB) Viewed 96615 times

I've never used either of my stock portafilters only the bottomless one I bought with the machine.

[Niko]

Endo, I have just the solution for that large SJ.
I'll PM you my address so you can send it me, I'll keep your SJ on the counter next to the MACAP and the Mazzer Type B. It'll still be your grinder and I promise to never give it back
Just think of the space you'll save!

The next thing on my accessory list is the Bumper tamping stand. The single spout is a PITA to tamp. After that comes the naked PF and then pre-infusion.

I'd definitely get a naked and you'll never use another spout the rest of your life.
Pre-infusion is a must, you might as well pack up the machine and donate it to charity without it.

[JohnB]

Pre-infusion is a must, you might as well pack up the machine and donate it to charity without it.

I think that's a little harsh. I wouldn't own a machine that didn't allow me to turn off the p/i. You didn't enjoy your espresso before you added the p/i?

[Endo]

Pre-infusion is a must, you might as well pack up the machine and donate it to charity without it.

I wouldn't own a machine that didn't allow me to turn off the p/i.

Actually, aren't both these comments about p/i rather silly (and confusing for newcomers)?

Certainly the Vivaldi is fine without p/i. I'm certainly making better espresso than I did with my old Krups (or I just wasted $2K)!

And you would turn away an Alex Duetto because you can't turn off the p/i on the E-61....

Come on guys, we're all enthusiastic about our purchases, but let's try and be objective.

[JohnB]

I'm very serious, if I can't turn it off I don't want it. The flavors in one of my favorite S/O espressos are ruined with p/i & others change depending on the length so I want to control whether it comes on & the duration. I have zero interest in an E61 equipped machine but since I have the S1 that is not an issue. My advice is to get the P/I and install the electric solenoid I mentioned elsewhere on here so you could at least switch it on & off.

[JohnB]

By the way your SJ needs a Schectermatic.

[Endo]

The p/i cutoff sounds very interesting. I'll see if I can find the old forum post.

Tried the "schnoz" already. It collected too much static for my liking.

Things were cleaner when I had my naked PF on my old Silvia. I could hold the PF right up under the hole and spill a lot less. I'm still waiting for my new naked PF from CaffeTech. I ordered it 2 weeks ago and I'm still waiting. I better check on them tomorrow. I think they may have lost my order in the Christmas rush.

[JohnB]

The p/i cutoff sounds very interesting. I'll see if I can find the old forum post.

Tried the "schnoz" already. It collected too much static for my liking.

I have zero static issues with my Schnoz. What did you make yours out of, paper? Mine is cut from a plastic milk jug. If you want to see serious static install the doserless conversion kit using the Mini funnel. Thank God I only use it for press pot & the occasional decaf espresso.

Niko - What do they do on your Mini E to reduce static? Someone told me there was a ground wire added to the funnel??

[Richard]

Niko - What do they do on your Mini E to reduce static? Someone told me there was a ground wire added to the funnel??

Niko I'm not, but I owned and used a Mini-E for a year or so. There is a grid of fine wire across the opening of the discharge from the grinder into the funnel. That, I am told, is largely responsible for reducing spatter and static. Somewhere, sometime, I saw photos of the mess when someone removed that grid. Ugly.

I never did have any static issues with Mini-E, regardless of the coffee.

[JohnB]

Niko - What do they do on your Mini E to reduce static? Someone told me there was a ground wire added to the funnel??

Niko I'm not, but I owned and used a Mini-E for a year or so. There is a grid of fine wire across the opening of the discharge from the grinder into the funnel. That, I am told, is largely responsible for reducing spatter and static. Somewhere, sometime, I saw photos of the mess when someone removed that grid. Ugly.

I never did have any static issues with Mini-E, regardless of the coffee.

I had that wire grid on for about 4 days before I pulled it off. There was static with it but it may have gotten worse since I removed it. I was told its primary purpose was to reduce clumping but it makes it a real pita to get the grounds out of the chute. It won't be going back on as I can now clear out the chute with a couple quick dabs from the chopstick.

My house is probably a worst case scenario as I have a wood stove running 24/7 this time of year although I don't see the same issues with my SJ w/doser. I may try one of those anti static wipes on the funnel & see if that makes a difference.

[chas]

I took the grid off mine for the same reason but then the static and clumping was so bad I put it right back on. To get around the cleaning problem I just blast the grinder for a second or two in order to clear the old grounds before I start a new round of shots.

[JohnB]

I took the grid off mine for the same reason but then the static and clumping was so bad I put it right back on. To get around the cleaning problem I just blast the grinder for a second or two in order to clear the old grounds before I start a new round of shots.

I could do that but you are throwing away an entire chute full of grounds each time. That would make the minor waste left in the bottom of the doser looking like nothing. I'll live with the static or come up with a better solution then that grid as this isn't my primary grinder. As Charlton Heston "might" have said if he owned an SJ; You will pry my SJ w/doser from my cold dead hands!

[Endo]

As Charlton Heston "might" have said if he owned an SJ; You will pry my SJ w/doser from my cold dead hands!

Isn't he dead?

[JohnB]

[

Isn't he dead?

He is so they probably finally got his rifle & his SJ. They will have to wait awhile for mine.

[Richard]

. . . [the wire grid] makes it a real pita to get the grounds out of the chute.

Try taking the hopper off and running the grinder for a few seconds while you cup your hand and whack the throat of the grinder with your cupped palm. With the grinder running, that forces enough air into the grinder to clear the discharge chute.

[Niko]

I actually whole-heartedly meant the comment about Pre-infusion on the Vivaldi.
I really was thinking about another machine with pre-infusion for that feature since I really missed it on my Anita.
Yes, I was really thinking about shelving the Vivaldis but CC came to the rescue.
I'm good for another 5 years now

I really like the espresso better with the p/i hands down, it has a different tone that I can't explain. The E61 machines I've used have it and the Vivaldi finally has it.

[Endo]

I actually whole-heartedly meant the comment about Pre-infusion on the Vivaldi.
I really was thinking about another machine with pre-infusion for that feature since I really missed it on my Anita.

I know what you mean. I still have to say I have a slight preference for the taste I got from my E-61 (Anita as well) over the Vivaldi. Perhaps it's the pre-infusion or it might just be my taste buds have gotten more discriminating.

I'm holding off on the pre-infusion until I get my naked PF. This way I can have a few months of getting used to the machine and nailing down my technique before I start playing with other variables. Although, I did order the longer S5 steam arm and smaller 4 hole tip. The short arm and 3 hole tip is a bubble monster. My latte art is suffering.

[oton]

So you really think that Vivaldi's shots quality are inferior (or slighty inferior) than a E61 machine group. At least without pre-infusion.

Do you agree with Home-Barista.com "Exceptional Espresso" scores?

Spaziale Vivaldi II (pre-infusion): 8.5
Spaziale Vivaldi: 8.0
BFC La Valentina: 8.5
Quickmill Alexia: 9.0
Quickmill Andreja Premium: 8.5
Vibiemme Domobar Super: 8.75
Expobar Brewtus: 9.0
Giotto Premium: 8.5

[Endo]

Do you agree with Home-Barista.com "Exceptional Espresso" scores?

Can only compare the QuickMill Andreja and the Vivaldi without pre-infusion. I 'd say for these these two machines the scores are excatly what I would rate them (Vivaldi is about 0.5 less than the rest). Hopefully the pre-infusion will bring them on par as they claim here.

As far as the other machines are concerned, I doubt there would be any difference. Can't see why a Brewtus II would get a 9.0.

The biggest problem I can see so far with the Vivaldi is not the 8.5 taste score. It's the fact that those 8.5's are so inconsistant. I expect many people who are inexperienced are getting a 7.5 and don't even realize it (since they never tried a more forgiving machine).

[oton]

The biggest problem I can see so far with the Vivaldi is not the 8.5 taste score. It's the fact that those 8.5's are so inconsistant. I expect many people who are inexperienced are getting a 7.5 and don't even realize it (since they never tried a more forgiving machine).

Mmm, It's curious. AFAIK 53mm Spaziale group was designed to minimize the potentially problems with tamping and chaneling seeing on 58mm groups and therefore get more shot repeatibility, plus vivaldi thermal stability, fine temp tuning and no need of cooling flush.

[Endo]

The shot is only slightly different compared to the 58mm. First of all, there are very few people who actually have control of all the other more important variables like good fresh beans, good grinder and good technique. So the machine differences are VERY easily lost. Even more so since many people buy this machine for milk drinks.

In other words, a score difference of 0.5 doesn't really mean much in the real world. And some people I'm sure prefer it depending on their bean choice.

It's very easy to make a very good espresso on this machine (much easier than most other machines), but the flip side of that is I believe it is harder to make a GREAT shot.

This is just my take. And it might be limited to strictly the Mini Vivaldi (I haven't tried the regular Vivaldi). But like I said, since taste is so subjective, I'm sure others will disagree.

[RapidCoffee]

Do you agree with Home-Barista.com "Exceptional Espresso" scores?

It's always tempting to reduce complex issues to a single scalar variable. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do (almost always NOT). So take individual ratings with a grain of salt, and look for general trends instead. Keep in mind that these scores reflect the experience of only one or two people, and differences of half a point are probably insignificant. OTOH, the huge difference between a Silvia (rated only 3 on the morning after score) and a prosumer HX/DB is almost certainly significant.

Mmm, It's curious. AFAIK 53mm Spaziale group was designed to minimize the potentially problems with tamping and chaneling seeing on 58mm groups and therefore get more shot repeatibility, plus vivaldi thermal stability, fine temp tuning and no need of cooling flush.

Brew temp management/repeatability is easier on a DB than an HX, and this is reflected in the morning-after scores. I've seen no evidence that the 53mm group is superior to the 58mm standard, in tamping or channelling or taste. (Please let me know if you find anything other than hearsay evidence about basket diameter.) BTW, DBs do not need a cooling flush, they need a warming flush. I flush just as much water on my DB S1 as my HX Vetrano, but I need to pay much closer attention to the HX flush for optimal results.

[Endo]

The latest podcast on CoffeeGeek has a long interview with Baratza Vario grinder designer Kyle Anderson.

Man.....I'll say it again. This grinder sure sounds like a "giant killer" and perhaps the perfect match for the Vivaldi. They seem to have fixed everything that's wrong with the current grinders and made it half the size and half the price. Things like:

- Grind for presspot down to espresso
- espresso adjustment in 4 micron increments (that's nuts).
- less than 0.2g left in the machine after grinding (my Mazzer SJ holds about 5g).
- accurate digital dosing into the PF
- ceramic burrs that last twice sa long and stay sharp throughout
- speed of almost 2g /sec (that's as fast as my SJ).
- super quiet (isolated motor and burrs from hopper).
- particle size and distribution as good (or better?) than a Mazzer (great taste apparently).

The interview is worth a listen if you are shopping for anew grinder.

Grinder ships Feb 17. I get the feeling there will be a LOT of Mazzers for sale next year! Mine might be one of them.

[JohnB]

So the designer thinks its a great grinder so that means it is? I've yet to see any First Look that turned out an espresso, drip & press pot grind & commented on the quality of each. Hopefully we will see something meaningful in the H-B review when the production unit turns up, if it ever does. So far it hasn't killed anything except a hell of a lot of time getting to market.

[Endo]

It got delayed in order to reduce static. Apparently they added a grounding strap to the PF holder and coated some plastic parts with some "anti-static" stuff.

I'm encouraged by the fact they are taking the time to do it right. Who cares if it is a few months delayed.

There have been quite a few people using the early prototypes and even running it next to huge Mazzers for comparison. Every early review or blog I read has said it compares very well to the big Mazzers on taste and speed (and they've even compared particle size on microscopes). But they say it beats the pants off the Mazzers in every other catagory like noise, price, dosing, convenience, messiness, size, left over grounds, styling, etc. All the stuff that is important at home.

It's about time they came up with a good, inexpensive home grinder. It should not be too hard to match the taste quality of the big Mazzers. After all, it's just a few cutting teeth that produce the taste. It's not magic, just cutting path and speed. We are WAY to focused on burr diameter, just because it's an easy thing to stick in the brochure. "Mine has bigger burrs than yours and the Titan project says"...blah, blah, blah. This whole big burr trend has been a step backwards for grinder design (just like focusing on only displacement in car engine design....I gotta 6.0L Hemi....who cares).

Most of the price you pay for ther big Mazzer is to make it suit the high volume cafe environment. In other words, it's just a waste at home.

[JohnB]

There have been quite a few people using the early prototypes and even running it next to huge Mazzers for comparison. Every early review or blog I read has said it compares very well to the big Mazzers on taste and speed (and they've even compared particle size on microscopes). But they say it beats the pants off the Mazzers in every other catagory like noise, price, dosing, convenience, messiness, size, left over grounds, styling, etc. All the stuff that is important at home.

I'm reading the same forums you are & I've yet to hear anyone say that. Who has looked at the Vario grind with a microscope in a review? Who says it beats the pants off the big Mazzers? Links? Quotes?

From the H-B review:
"Noise is not too bad under load. I haven't run it empty yet. It's slightly louder than the Robur and the Super Jolly, but it's far from obnoxious. It's significantly higher in pitch than the Robur, as you might expect."

Is that what you consider "beating the pants off" the Mazzers in noise?

[Endo]

Here is a quote from Holly Bastin's blog at PT's Coffee (she's a US basrista Championship Judge):

"As for the Vario, it was the biggest surprise of all to me. I have never been able to figure out what kind of grinder I would want if I ever had a home set up. I had considered the Mazzer Mini, but have been frustrated in my encounters with it. It’s slow, messy, and a little hard to work with. The Vario, however, was simple to use, kept a good pace with me, and was enabling me to produce commercial quality shots. As far as messiness goes, it was better than most Super Jollys. As an espresso grinder alone, it’s quite amazing. The fact that it can be used to grind for both regular drip and French press is just a bonus. It is hands down what I will buy when I finally get my dream home set up."

You can read the whole thing here:

http://blog.ptscoffee.com/archives/305

We should't just pick at one small item (like noise). If you get that picky with the Super Jolly, you can list at least a dozen major annoyances. It's really about the whole package. Listen to the interview with designer Kyle Anderson by Mark Prince (it's over 1 hour long). All the details you requested (noise level and isolation, particle size and shape, etc) are discussed there in great detail. Did you listen? If not, here's the link:

http://libsyn.com/media/coffeegeek//cgpodcast065.mp3

Hey, I just spent $700 on a new Super Jolly. Nobody wants this Vario to suck more than I do!

[JohnB]

First of all Pt's sells the Vario or at least will if they ever get released so I wouldn't expect to read anything negative there. My SJ isn't messy & all I did was add a free schnozz. Kyle is the designer & again I don't expect him to bitch about his grinder. Lets just wait until the production model gets some unbiased reviews & see what the reality is. I fully expect it to turn out a nice espresso grind as do most/all espresso grinders in that price range. What I want to know is if someone can actually build a grinder that can do a nice espresso grind AND a nice, coarse press pot grind. That will be a first. I can easily grind espresso, vac pot & press with my SJ but the press pot grind is disappointing. Hence my KA Pro lives on.

[RapidCoffee]

The Holly Bastin review is the only one that praises the grinder for espresso. Neither Mark Prince (CG) nor Nick Lundgaard (H-B) have touted this as a great espresso grinder, at least not yet. BTW, Holly was also using a Rancilio Silvia for the first time. Her review focusses far more on milk prep than espresso, and she states:

Working with ‘Bella’, the espresso blend I am most familiar with, I knew what I was looking for, and the Silvia delivered. It wasn’t quite am identical twin of what I get with commercial equipment but it was definitely a close cousin.

Now, as a bar barista, I only had one point of contention with the Silvia. You cannot pull shots and steam milk simultaneously. The machine has to be put into a different mode when you steam milk in order to generate enough pressure. It’s obviously preferable to have both your milk and espresso shots be used immediately after being prepared, but since it wasn’t an option, I decided to steam the milk first and let it sit for a moment while I waited for the machine to cool back down a little (about 30-45 seconds) and make the espresso. The espresso flavor would suffer the most from the exposure to the air, and there are clever ways around having foam separation.

Sorry, but a "close cousin" isn't all that impressive. In my experience with single boiler machines, you get noticeable brew temp instability by steaming the milk and then lowering the temp. All in all, I have trouble seeing this as a valid test of the grinder's capabilities for espresso.

Listen to the interview with designer Kyle Anderson by Mark Prince (it's over 1 hour long). All the details you requested (noise level and isolation, particle size and shape, etc) are discussed there in great detail. Did you listen?

Yes, and I posted a couple of questions on CG about Kyle's statements (which have gone unanswered). IMHO, the claim of 4 micron grind adjustment is really hard to believe (*cough* BULLSHIT *cough* ). The claim of 250 micron diameter espresso grind particle size is almost 2X smaller than other sources* have found. I don't recall anything about particle shape.

It's high time that some new grinder designs hit the market. The Vario sounds like it has distinct possibilities, but Mark Prince may have nailed its true forte as 1) a cupping grinder and 2) a restaurant presspot grinder. I'm still waiting for more definitive tests on the espresso side.

* Petracco in Illy's Espresso Coffee, Teme in his EspressoPassione blog, and my own laser particle sizing studies

[Endo]

IMHO, the claim of 4 micron grind adjustment is really hard to believe (*cough* BULLSHIT *cough* ).

True. Just for comparison a human hair is about 80 micron. So this would be 1/20 th of the thickness of a human hair.

It's high time that some new grinder designs hit the market. The Vario sounds like it has distinct possibilities, but Mark Prince may have nailed its true forte as 1) a cupping grinder and 2) a restaurant presspot grinder.

I still think it's main forte will be as a home grinder. There are a HUGE number of people looking for a grinder for their Silvia at that price point. As just about everyone tells me, "You have to be an insane coffee nut to own a SuperJolly". I agree, that's me, but 99% of the buyers will be simply looking for a small, stylish grinder with a slick digital readout to go with their shiny espresso machine.

[RapidCoffee]

You may well be right. The prerelease hype has been astounding. And to give credit where due, the Vario has some great features:
1) electronic dosing
2) doserless
3) low grinds retention
4) small form factor and modern appliance look
5) reasonably priced, relative to other prosumer/commercial grinders

If it grinds well for espresso, bingo. IMHO all it has to do is match the performance of a K3, perhaps just a Rocky. If not... $450 is pricey for a home drip grinder.

[Richard]

I can easily grind espresso, vac pot & press with my SJ but the press pot grind is disappointing. Hence my KA Pro lives on.

Exactly, John. A burr set designed for espresso grinding produces far too many fines, i.e., a mixture of fine and course grinds, for drip or french press brewing. For that, we need consistency of particles, unlike espresso.

I picked up one of the little Baratza Virtuoso grinders for drip and french press grinding. It's a dreadful piece of crap as an espresso grinder, but it produces a consistency of grind for drip that can't be bettered until you get well up into the class of grinder like the Ditting 804s.

[chas]

I'm going to relocate this to the right place for grinder discussions...

[RapidCoffee]

I can easily grind espresso, vac pot & press with my SJ but the press pot grind is disappointing. Hence my KA Pro lives on.

Exactly, John. A burr set designed for espresso grinding produces far too many fines, i.e., a mixture of fine and course grinds, for drip or french press brewing. For that, we need consistency of particles, unlike espresso.

I picked up one of the little Baratza Virtuoso grinders for drip and french press grinding. It's a dreadful piece of crap as an espresso grinder, but it produces a consistency of grind for drip that can't be bettered until you get well up into the class of grinder like the Ditting 804s.

I agree, and I did exactly the same thing: bought a second grinder for non-espresso brew (first a KAP, then a Virtuoso). OTOH I've made plenty of decent non-espresso brew with a SJ, although I've never done any real comparisons to other grinders. And the Virtuoso is capable of grinding for espresso (of course I had to give it a try). One big problem is poor grind adjustability (adjustment steps are far too coarse for espresso).

[JohnB]

I agree, and I did exactly the same thing: bought a second grinder for non-espresso brew (first a KAP, then a Virtuoso). OTOH I've made plenty of decent non-espresso brew with a SJ, although I've never done any real comparisons to other grinders. And the Virtuoso is capable of grinding for espresso (of course I had to give it a try). One big problem is poor grind adjustability (adjustment steps are far too coarse for espresso).

The SJ seems to do a nice job with the vac pot grind, no complaints there. Never drink drip but its not that far removed from the traditional v/p grind so I assume it would be fine there. Once you get down to the coarse/press pot range the SJ, like my Macap M4, falls apart. The KA Pro is no espresso grinder but it can certainly turn out a nice, consistently coarse grind once dialed in. It also looks SO MUCH better then any of the low end grinders I've seen.

[RapidCoffee]

The SJ seems to do a nice job with the vac pot grind, no complaints there. Never drink drip but its not that far removed from the traditional v/p grind so I assume it would be fine there. Once you get down to the coarse/press pot range the SJ, like my Macap M4, falls apart. The KA Pro is no espresso grinder but it can certainly turn out a nice, consistently coarse grind once dialed in. It also looks SO MUCH better then any of the low end grinders I've seen.

I'll give the Mazzer another try with French press, after I replace the glass beaker. Been using an AeroPress in the office for the past couple of weeks...

There's a lot to like about the KAP. I sold mine to a coworker, kinda regretted it ever since. But the Virtuoso has been a good replacement.

[JohnB]

I'll give the Mazzer another try with French press, after I replace the glass beaker. Been using an AeroPress in the office for the past couple of weeks...

There's a lot to like about the KAP. I sold mine to a coworker, kinda regretted it ever since. But the Virtuoso has been a good replacement.

If you grind in the drip range & do a short steep the SJ is ok for press pot. I prefer a coarser grind & longer steep time. Never got attached to my AP. Don't mention those beakers! I had a spare on the shelf until 2 weeks ago, now we are back on borrowed time. By the way, nice work on Hubble. Have you updated your resume yet?

[RapidCoffee]

If you grind in the drip range & do a short steep the SJ is ok for press pot. I prefer a coarser grind & longer steep time. Never got attached to my AP. Don't mention those beakers! I had a spare on the shelf until 2 weeks ago, now we are back on borrowed time. By the way, nice work on Hubble. Have you updated your resume yet?

I like the AP for travel, backpacking, etc. Press pot is (was) easier in my office, especially for anything over one cup. In my hands, unfortunately, glass has a half life measured in months.

Yeah, the Hubble thing was a surprise. Let's see... if we focus the Hubble on John's Robur, and take a close-up shot of the coffee grinds...

[Endo]

I like the AP for travel, backpacking, etc. Press pot is (was) easier in my office, especially for anything over one cup. In my hands, unfortunately, glass has a half life measured in months.

I like the AP at work. Cleans up much easier at my desk (no running to the wash room to clean the press pot). I also like the cleaner cup with less fines that it delivers (although some flavours are deminished, I agree).

Unfortunately, I was getting way too many "breast pump" comments, so I had to retire it.

[RapidCoffee]

Unfortunately, I was getting way too many "breast pump" comments, so I had to retire it.

Ha ha, pretty funny. I've gotten similar comments about mainlining my coffee with a big syringe.

In the same vein: a friend was over the other day, and I pulled him a shot. He watched as I scrubbed the shower screen with a toothbrush (followed by a PF wiggle rinse), and innocently asked, "Are you going to floss it now?"

[Endo]

Looks like the Vario has seen it's first bad review:

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-gr ... 04-80.html

Might want to see if it is just a bad unit or something more. Too good to be true? We'll see as the Feb 17 release date approaches.

[JohnB]

Mark Prince is putting it between the Rocky & Macap M4 in grind quality so unless the production units do a better espresso grind I'd say the "giants" are safe. It's beginning to look like you are getting exactly what you pay for with the Vario; a decent $420 grinder and nothing more.

[Endo]

I hope it's just one bad grinder. We really could use a grinder just like this (as long as it delivers on taste of course).

Still, that ceramic burrs sure are odd looking. I think it may be doing a cheap "weed whacker" job to keep up that insane 2g/sec pace.

I would guess many odd shaped larger particles are getting through that smaller grind path.

I'll be taking my SJ off Craigslist for now.

[Endo]

Oh No!

This is what I was afraid of. Apparently the new little Baratza Vario is kicking butt and matching the taste of some of the Titan grinders like the $1400 Compak WBC.

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/bar ... 95-20.html

Still too early to sell my Mazzer SJ but a swap may be on the way if this keeps up.

[oton]

I dont understand anything. A grinder with 54mm flat burrs matches or outperform a K10 conical burrs???

[Richard]

Apparently the new little Baratza Vario is kicking butt and matching the taste of some of the Titan grinders like the $1400 Compak WBC.

Well, in a word, no. That is one person's opinion, limited to one afternoon with one specimen of the grinder. Relax for a couple of years and see how it pans out.

[Endo]

Well, in a word, no. That is one person's opinion, limited to one afternoon with one specimen of the grinder. Relax for a couple of years and see how it pans out.

Yes I agree a little patience is required here.

It's interesting that Mark Prince just announced they are already releasing an "improved" Vario (that was fast). Seems Baratza are really committed to making the best home grinder possible. Compare that to Mazzer who have done absolutely zero for 10 years.

[JohnB]

Yes I agree a little patience is required here.
It's interesting that Mark Prince just announced they are already releasing an "improved" Vario (that was fast). Seems Baratza are really committed to making the best home grinder possible. Compare that to Mazzer who have done absolutely zero for 10 years.

Baratza is busy fixing things that aren't an issue on a Mazzer as they use a more straight forward/simpler approach. You evidently missed the complete SJ makeover a few years ago & the introduction of the E models. You are comparing a grinder that can survive years of daily commercial use in a busy cafe & require only a cosmetic cleanup/new burrs to be as new once again. The Baratza would be lucky to last a month under that kind of abuse.

The current Version 1.2 or 1.3 (I'm losing count) of the Vario must make the early adopters pretty happy. They've only had their grinders a week & they own damaged goods resale wise. I'd return it to Baratza & ask to have all upgrades installed at no cost if I had one of the first production models.

[Endo]

You are comparing a grinder that can survive years of daily commercial use in a busy cafe & require only a cosmetic cleanup/new burrs to be as new once again. The Baratza would be lucky to last a month under that kind of abuse.

Yes. But isn't a lot of this Mazzer stuff just overkill for home use? Doser, huge motor, massive housing, timer switch, etc. Still, I agree it is a nice feeling to have something that will last a lifetime.

The current Version 1.2 or 1.3 (I'm losing count) of the Vario must make the early adopters pretty happy. They've only had their grinders a week & they own damaged goods resale wise. I'd return it to Baratza & ask to have all upgrades installed at no cost if I had one of the first production models.

Yes. This is a funny one. I was rather suprised to hear the upgrade comments from Mark Prince. Seems like a real sales killer to me, and bound to wee-wee off people wating for there "new" grinder to arrive.

[JohnB]

Yes. But isn't a lot of this Mazzer stuff just overkill for home use? Doser, huge motor, massive housing, timer switch, etc. Still, I agree it is a nice feeling to have something that will last a lifetime.

Overkill! Never. Some day the mighty Robur will sit towering over my S1 but I'll keep one of the cute little SJs for vac pot grinding.

[Endo]

Overkill! Never. Some day the mighty Robur will sit towering over my S1 but I'll keep one of the cute little SJs for vac pot grinding.

Why not. Make sure you get the 3-phase version !

I think the Anfim Super Caimano delivers the best taste. Having had many shots from this grinder, I can say my personal preference is for the big planar burrs. But if I did go conical, I think it would be the Compak K-10 WBC (only $1450...what a bargain). I could never sleep knowing I paid $2.5K for the Robur grinder. Besides, I don't think my counters are strong enough

You seem to prefer lighter citrus type coffees brewed at lower temps. For that I think a conical would be a very good choice.

Bargain of the decade was discovered by a guy on H-B last week who bought 2 used Mahlkoenig K-30 grrinders for $500 each. (They go for $1700+ new).

[oton]

I think the Anfim Super Caimano delivers the best taste.

By the way. Here, La Spaziale Spain sells only Anfin grinders.

[Endo]

More rave reviews are coming in for the Vario (must be soemthing in the Texas water).

Latest taste tests seem to put in on par with my Mazzer SJ or even better.

While I'm sure it's not built to last the same way as the SJ, it sure has a lot of advantages over the bigger grinders. Dual grind, cleanliness, less waste, size. The price new is about half of that of the new bigger grinders as well (but about the same if you want to buy something beat-up and change the burrs).

The Vario reminds me a lot of the Vivaldi. An excellent "new school" design for the home prosumer. Wish I had held out a bit longer before I bought my SJ.

Anybody tried a Vario with the Vivaldi yet?

By the way. The Vario is selling for $459 in Canada. That's $360 US with the current excahnge rate!

[BillK]

Endo, you could be the first to test this combo!! :-)

Unless there is a Canadian supplier that ships to the U.S., I don't see how a person in the U.S. could take advantage of the exchange rate for this grinder. I could use a second grinder, and if this one is good I am going to be very interested. It does not have to be built like an M1 tank and be able to grind all day long to handle my needs. Small is good for me.

BillK

[oton]

By the way. The Vario is selling for $459 in Canada. That's $360 US with the current excahnge rate!

Here it cost 359€ ($476)

I'm very interested in this grinder. I wanna get high with that texas water too.



*EDITED TO CHANGE PRICE

[JohnB]

By the way. The Vario is selling for $459 in Canada. That's $360 US with the current excahnge rate!

With typical Canada to U.S. Air Post rates that puts it right at what CC's discounted price was & may still be as they suggest calling for possible discounts? Buying from CC you would have backup in case of a problem.

[oton]

As far as size goes I doubt anybody on here has a smaller kitchen then we currently live with but my 2 SJs fit in just fine.

You should see my kitchen.

[Endo]

Got some time to see some of the new gear out this year:

First the Vario: It ground very fast and the shot taste seemed nearly as good as my Mazzer SJ.

Still, it's a lot more obvious once you try it in person that it's not built like one of the big commercial grinder (but I guess I knew that). I was also a little surprised at how messy it was.

For the price and considering its small footprint, I think it's a very good match with the Vivaldi. But, if you are the type that gets "upgrade fever", it probably won't cure you from wanting a Mazzer eventually.

Also got a chance to try a shot on the new World Barista Championship espresso machine (Nuova Simonelli Aurelia). Wow. What a sexy machine! Top of the line technology with PID pressure control on separate brew groups. It made a beautiful extraction. Very viscous with tight crema and excellent mouthfeel. Funny thing is, I hated the espresso they used and when I went home to my Vivaldi with some fresh one week old Espresso Classico, it blew away the shot I had on the $15,000 Aurelia. Yessssss!!!

I know, it's more about the coffee, grinder and barista, and not just the machine, but for some reason, this made me feel very happy (in a smug way)

[oton]

Still, it's a lot more obvious once you try it in person that it's not built like one of the big commercial grinder (but I guess I knew that).

That's one of my worries with this grinder. I have not see it in person, but watching the videos sometimes it looks OK but sometimes it looks like a plastic toy, which makes me think about reliability... There's no support in my country for this grinder.

I'm actually thinking of purchase a Vario, but not a Vario Home, a Mahlkonig K30 Vario.

Funny thing is, I hated the espresso they used and when I went home to my Vivaldi with some fresh one week old Espresso Classico, it blew away the shot I had on the $15,000 Aurelia. Yessssss!!!

[JohnB]

Got some time to see some of the new gear out this year:

First the Vario: It ground very fast and the shot taste seemed nearly as good as my Mazzer SJ.

Still, it's a lot more obvious once you try it in person that it's not built like one of the big commercial grinder (but I guess I knew that). I was also a little surprised at how messy it was.

For the price and considering its small footprint, I think it's a very good match with the Vivaldi. But, if you are the type that gets "upgrade fever", it probably won't cure you from wanting a Mazzer eventually.

Where did you try out the Vario? Cafe or shop? I would imagine it would stand up well to normal home use once they get everything sorted but its a toy compared to the big Mazzers. After 5-6 years of daily abuse in a Starbucks & several years in a warehouse packed with old grounds both of my Majors ran smooth & quiet. A good cleaning, new burrs, a little lube on the adjuster threads & they were working as new.

I will probably list my old style SJ for sale at some point but the 06 SJ will stay in the family. Eventually I want to put together an espresso set up for my daughter & the SJ will be her first Espresso grinder.

[Endo]

I tried the Vario in a shop in Montreal.

That's nice of you to give your SJ to your daughter. That says something about quality when you can pass them down to the next generation.

I have my 7 year old son steaming hot chocolate for himself. He's working on grinding and pulling shots, but not quite there yet. He needs to work on more wrist movement in his Stockfleth It's also hard when the tamping pressure is close to your bodyweight.

[JohnB]

I tried the Vario in a shop in Montreal.

That's nice of you to give your SJ to your daughter. That says something about quality when you can pass them down to the next generation.

I have my 7 year old son steaming hot chocolate for himself. He's working on grinding and pulling shots, but not quite there yet. He needs to work on more wrist movement in his Stockfleth It's also hard when the tamping pressure is close to your bodyweight.

My daughter is 25 & lives in N.H. so the lessons will be mostly on Holidays. Currently she has the Capresso Infinity I gave her & an 8C Chambord press. When ever she visits I send her home with enough vac packed bags of fresh roasted beans to fill her small freezer.

[JohnB]

I didn't pair it with a Vivaldi but I do now have a B.Vario sitting on the counter next to the MCaL. Bought it used & overall I'm happy with it for my usage. Primarily it will be grinding for our vac pot brew & it has made a noticeable improvement in the cup over the Major in this grind range. If I was using it as a straight espresso grinder grinding into a p/f or basket in that little cubby hole I can honestly say that it would have been up for sale within 24 hrs. I will only use it with the bin & dose from that when I'm grinding for the MCaL. One other thing to consider is the claim that it easily switches back & forth from brew to espresso. Technically this is correct but if you have it calibrated for a good espresso grind you will not get an ideal Press grind & vice versa.

As for build quality my opinion is that it is borderline funky which isn't a compliment. I've already had the Micro lever drop a few settings while grinding & I'm waiting for a reply from Baratza on that issue. Overall it reminds me of my first grinder, a Capresso Infinity, of course that one only costs $89 new. Personally I think the new list price of $450 is pushing it & I'd never consider spending that much on one. For that price you can buy a decent brew grinder & a used SJ or Major if you shop around. Of course these are just my opinions & YMMV.

[Endo]

A friend lent me his Vario for the whole past week and I must say, it can get addictive! There is no doubt the size and convenience are big sellers. It's a little more clumpy and about half the speed of my SJ. The build quality is nothing like the commerical Mazzer, but I must say it seems like an ideal fit with my S1. If I was buying my first grinder for the S1, this would definitely be it. Downgrading from a Mazzer SJ on the the other hand, is a very tough decision.

I guess my next step will be to buy both.

[Endo]

Here's the new Vario setup:

Vario and Vivaldi

IMG_1975 (500x426).jpg (72.11 KiB) Viewed 94431 times

Sure is convenient! Looks pretty good too.

Can't say I like it as much as the Mazzer SJ just yet. I have some more learning and break-in to do I guess.

Still, I had some fresh, 4 day old Counter Culture Finca Guatemalan from JF at Cafe in Gamba. It was totally awesome! (One of my top 10 shots so far). Lots of body, great complexity (I was busy trying to pick out all the new flavours). Powerful nuttiness. Recommend you pick some up today if you're in Montreal.

[txrpls]

Well I ordered the Vario yesterday. I giving up on my 8 year old Mini Mazzer which has served me well. The wife has never liked the big honker on the counter top. I hope the grind quality is as good as you guys say. Since I don't have an SJ, I hope I won't be disappointed.

[chas]

Well I ordered the Vario yesterday. I giving up on my 8 year old Mini Mazzer which has served me well. The wife has never liked the big honker on the counter top. I hope the grind quality is as good as you guys say. Since I don't have an SJ, I hope I won't be disappointed.

So long as it's still in good shape, even older Mazzer Minis fetch an excellent price on eBay. Thanks in part to the fact that prices jumped up so high a few years ago, it's often possible to come close to getting your original purchase price. I did!

[Endo]

The Mazzer Mini is like the "Britney Spears" of grinders. In 2000 it's all "We love you Britney....you're the best!" Fast forward to 2010 and everybody's like "You suck! Justin Bieber is SO much better!" (Can you tell I have kids?)

Well all I gotta say is "Leave Britney alone!!!!" Having owned a Rocky, Mini, SJ and Vario....I can honestly say......the Mini is STILL a great grinder.

All the self proclaimed grinder "experts" on other forums that are now dissing the Mini are the same "experts" that were praising it 10 years ago. Now all you hear about is Justin (I mean Vario).

Mark my words, in 5 years, people will be dumping Varios for the same reason Kid Rock dumped Pamela Anderson (because of all the plastic) and the Mazzers will still be there (and with a 60% residual value at that).

All this said.....I couldn't help myself either. I got a Vario last month.

(Hey....we actually last longer together than the Kid and Pamela......WHooo HOooooo).

[txrpls]

i think I will box it up and store it just in case. I'm also really intrigued by the Versalab, but that would go over about like a turd in a punch bowl with my wife.

[jackviimini]

I have been running a Vario with my VIIMini for ~3 months, working really well. I upgraded from a LeLit and have no hands-on with Mazzers etc. but aside from a few minor nits, the Vario is awesome. We drink drip also, switching between drip and espresso is literally a 1-second flick.

Funny, Vario is really messy with Blue Bottle 17' Ceiling, and hardly messy at all with Black Cat

The portaholder was a little unstable with Chris's double bottomless portafilter, but is very stable with Chris's new triple.

[LJCoffeeGuy]

Endo -
Looking over the posts again and dang, your Jan 1 2009 post shows we have a lot of gear in common.
S1, Black SJ with mid hopper, Breville knock box, and the same phone! And now a Vario!

Darren

[Endo]

Ah ha! You'll need to change to the Tubbi knockbox now!

[JohnB]

Here's the new Vario setup:.

So I see that 2 months was your Vario limit also??

[Endo]

Yeah. I just couldn't get the same naked pours or taste from it that I can get from my Mazzer. The shots always started much faster and danced around a lot, many times pouring from the side of the PF rather than the center. It was as if I was getting more channeling. I think it has something to do with the speed and ceramic burr shape which "smashes" the grounds more than the Mazzer, producing a different proportion of fines. It was very unlike my Mazzer where I always get a nice center pours that start slow and accelerate.

I started getting some very messy distribution as well, and it seemed to get worse and worse. The Mazzer gives me a nice little center pile, but the Vario gave me grounds that build up on the sides a lot (static perhaps?). I was forced to distribute the grounds which killed any time savings.

I also missed the solid PF holder on the Mazzer, where I would lightly tap to settle the grounds mid-shot (something I like to do to help distribution and compact the puck). I often use a combination of settling and nutation to slow down a shot a little as the coffee ages (rather than changing the grind setting).

I tried every combination of technique I know to improve things, but it never worked or tasted as well as the Mazzer.

The timed dose was too inaccurate for my liking as well. A change of 1g on a deep puck machine like the Vivaldi (which is sensitive to head space), can make a huge difference. I don't like to leave beans in the hopper to go stale, so again, I'm back to single dosing.

Perhaps I've just gotten overly picky with my age. Many people love their Varios and I seem to be the exception (actually if I even tried posting this on CoffeeGeek I'm sure I'd be banned for life).

In any case....to each his own.

It does make a nice travel grinder when you are cupping with friends (forget the Mazzer here). Also a good grinder when staying in the country or at relatives. I may just decide to keep it for that reason alone.

[JohnB]

In any case....to each his own.

It does make a nice travel grinder when you are cupping with friends (forget the Mazzer here). Also a good grinder when staying in the country or at relatives. I may just decide to keep it for that reason alone.

My Zass Knee Mill is once again our travel grinder of choice. I tried to like the Vario but it just wasn't for me. It did a decent enough job with my vac pot but the nice Microcasa shots I got when using the Major disappeared. After sending the Vario off to it's new home I pulled some MCaL shots using the K10 which I had never used for the Leva. Took a guess at the setting & got the nicest shot out of the Leva that I had seen/tasted in ages. One minor tweak & it was perfection. For ease of adjustment & dialing in a new bean/blend you can't beat the big commercial grinders.

[Endo]

It did a decent enough job with my vac pot but the nice Microcasa shots I got when using the Major disappeared.

My experience has been that machines with a small diameter and deeper puck are more sensitive to grind. These machines tend to highlight the differences between that Mazzer and Vario.

[maxcr]

Hi guys,

I'm a long time lurker, but decided to post because I'm about to take the plunge and call CC for a Spaziale Mini and grinder. So here is my question, I was set on the Cimbali Max Hybrid, then change my mind: Vario. After reading this post, I guess my question is what is the best match for the La Spaziale Mini... of course within a budget (I'm already pushing it with the $760 discounted price tag on the Cimbali)

Cheers!

Max

[Endo]

I didn't mean to mislead anyone here. Realistically, the difference between the Vario and Mazzer SJ is not large. I just have my preferences and preferred technique, and the Mazzer seems to suit me better. To be honest, I'm being VERY picky here and my opinions are not shared with the majority.

I have NO doubt the Vario is by far the best grinder you can get for the price. It is a real breakthrough in the home grinder market. It's convenience is also unmatched. In fact, I would absolutely recommend this grinder to anyone buying their first grinder to go with the Vivaldi. I doubt you will be disappointed.

Considering the price advantage and single dose convenience, I would take the Vario hands down over the CMH.

On the other hand, if you can get a Mazzer SJ or Major for the same price as the new Vario, this is not a bad option either (assuming you have the kitchen space). The Mazzer IS built much stronger, so if you expecting to buy the last grinder you will ever own, the Mazzer might be a better choice.

Sorry, I'm rambling again.........bottom line: Get the Vario.

[txrpls]

I used a Mini for several years and was very happy with it, but my wife wasn't. I have to say for convenience and size they Vario is a much better fit for us and the grind is ever bit as good as the Mazzer. Since I measure ever dose by weight, the Vario really fits the bill for not leaving much waste in the machine. I am very happy with mine. One caveat, It is definitely not built like a Mazzer.

[Endo]

I had a Mini for a while as well. I sold it when I got my SJ, so I was never able to compare.

I thought my Mazzer Mini was awesome (as did everyone else at the time). It's funny how now adays everyone seems to say it's junk.

The Vario definitely has a high "WAF" (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'm sure for many people that alone is enough reason to get one. Add the fact that it does a grind almost as good as a commercial grinder and it's no wonder it been such a big hit.

[JohnB]

The Vario definitely has a high "WAF" (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'm sure for many people that alone is enough reason to get one. Add the fact that it does a grind almost as good as a commercial grinder and it's no wonder it been such a big hit.

That's what I figured but my wife hated it & wanted the Major back on the counter the first time she laid eyes on the Vario. She is quite happy with the Bunn G3 filling out the end of the counter so I can't complain wife wise. Back when I had my S1V2 & turned it off every night I'd always wake up to a fully warmed up machine as she would turn it on every morning before she left for work.

[maxcr]

Thanks for all your advice.

I wanted to let you know that I placed my order today with Mary @ Chris Coffee - for a Mini Vivaldi paired with the Vario. It should get here next Monday!! - can't wait

I will let you guys know how it goes.

Max

[Endo]

I'm now on my second Vario (after the first one died).

I've dialed in my Mazzers after a few days effort, but the Vario has me stumped.

I've been alternating 50/50 between the Vario and my Mazzer SJ for several months now, and no matter what I do, I just can't get as good a shot from the Vario as my SJ. The bottomless PF shows many more wandering pour streams (non-centered) as well as more spritzers. I've weighed the doses, use the same prep, and get the same shot time, so I figure it must have something to do with the "fluffy" grinds or % of fines that is perhaps amplified by the sensitive Vivaldi basket.

Anyone else have side-by-side experience with the Vario and another commercial grinder and can compare? I must admit, I seem to be the only one complaining about this so it would be nice to hear from somebody else who had the same issues and has somehow resolved them.

[symbology]

No side by side comparisons, but I will tell you that I am not happy with the consistency of my Vario and am looking for a new grinder.

[JohnB]

No side by side comparisons, but I will tell you that I am not happy with the consistency of my Vario and am looking for a new grinder.

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... ompak10wbc Call for best price.

[symbology]

Yeah, that is on my short list.

[Endo]

The rich guy that JohnB bought his Speedster from is selling his almost new Robur Electronic for $1800. Good deal!

[jbb]

The rich guy that JohnB bought his Speedster from is selling his almost new Robur Electronic

he's owned both a speedster AND a cyncra? wow, talk about playing the field,

[Endo]

I'm on that cyncra when he buys a LM Strada.

[JohnB]

The guy I bought my Speedster from sold a Cyncra to buy the Speedster. He's not a rich guy, remember he sold the Speedster when times were tough & went without until recently. The Cyncra he recently bought is a prototype of a new machine coming out in April which will most likely be sold as a Hydra 1 group.

[jbb]

The Cyncra he recently bought is a prototype of a new machine coming out in April which will most likely be sold as a Hydra 1 group.

So like a one group Synesso with programmable pre-infusion? But, alas, I would guess not priced to compete with the GS3.

[JohnB]

I haven't seen the pricing on the new machine but the current 1 group starts around $9500 & goes up from there. Way more then the street price of either GS3 version & quite a bit more then the Speedster.

[michael]

how much is the speedster these days

[Endo]

$7500 USD and a 6 month waiting period.

Personally, I'd get this 3 group Synesso for $7000. Way cooler.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Synesso-Espresso-Ma ... 230f22ad7a