BCG800 Smart Grinder?

[Endo]

OK. It's a Breville.

Still, it looks like an awesome design (sealed hopper, automatic dosing adjustability, LCD panel, etc). They say the grind quality is good too. Conical burrs. And best of all, $199 I hear.

BCG800

BCG800.jpg (19.48 KiB) Viewed 51916 times

(Matches the Vivaldi nicely too!!!!)

[oton]

Yeah. Theres a good talk about it by the coffeesnobs aussies http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1288871951/0

The grinder seems to get good reputation, specially for no static issues *cough*vario*cough* and for great and easy burr cleaning. However there are some issues about not enough fine grind for espresso, so you need to install some shims.

Anyway I'm looking for a K10 Fresh right now

[symbology]

Have you seen a K10 Fresh

[oton]

Nope. Only some pics and a little video on youtube. K10 Fresh finally will be on sale in February. Compak has had to wait for some certifications.

[Endo]

The K-10 Fresh looks nice, but I assume we're talking megabucks here. Also looks like it would hide a lot of stale grounds. Not great for single shot home use.

Here's a video review of the BCG800 in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPU-97i ... ture=feedu

Looks kinda cheap in action (like most breville stuff). Has some great features though (too bad the Vario didn't think of these little things like the hopper design, etc). But like most Breville products, they forgot the obvious, it doesn't grind fine enough for espresso. Duh!

[JohnB]

If you read the Coffeesnobs thread you'll see that it does espresso quite well once shimmed properly. Evidently those Chinese kids can't be depended on to properly set them up on the assembly line. You don't get much for $2 a day anymore. The shim kit is free & fairly comprehensive.

One guy has been testing it with his Linea & likes it. Only $199 here in the states. If the U.S. reviews come in favorable I may pick one up for use as a travel grinder. I like the grind adjustment & hopper attachment MUCH better then the flimsy set up on the Vario.

http://www.amazon.com/Breville-BCG800XL ... 055&sr=8-1

[oton]

Here's a video review of the BCG800 in action:

wow. The grinding noise is awful. Sounds like it's underpowered.

inexplicably Breville makes the same error as Baratza - No numbers as grinding reference, only some lines!

[Endo]

wow. The grinding noise is awful. Sounds like it's underpowered.

Agreed. The sound does not inspire confidence. I was wating for it to burst into flame when they moved it to the finest setting.

[JohnB]

I hated the sound of both my Varios but they seem to do ok. The folks at SCG seem to be pretty clueless about a lot of stuff. Did you see their video on how bad freezing roasted coffee was? They sell the grinder yet they know nothing about the shim kit?? It is unfortunate that so many of the grinders are not set up properly from the factory but it is an easy fix. For the money it has an amazing amount of convenience features. That metal loop to aid removing the burr assy., two different sized p/f holders, a very well designed hopper, stainless body, ect. It puts the B. Vario to shame in many areas for less then half the money. Time will tell about the grind quality.

[oton]

Yep. I don't know what's up with that bussiness, sometimes it seems that they cannot sell their own equipment. They get a new breville grinder, it does not work properly, and they not ask to the company before doing a "review"?

Or see the Vivaldi "stale water" test... They do not want to sell more Vivaldis anymore or what?

[GDK]

I saw the stale water test. Water was sitting in the boiler for a week or two (cannot remember). This may make sense for dual boiler machines that have large boilers and are used very lightly. The Vivaldi has a small 450ml brew boiler, even if you are pulling two shots per day with pre-warming flushes and a rinse, your water will never get stale. Obviously they have no interest of selling Vivaldi, perhaps their contract wit Chris did not work out well.

[symbology]

Yeah, sadly I think that they do not put enough thought into some of the stuff that they do. They try to respond to emails that they get from customers without really knowing what they are talking about. They hear a claim that a dual boiler setup can lead to stale water in the brew boiler. They do a simple test and discover that this could true. However, they do not stop to think that any SBDU machine would suffer from the same exact issue.

They had a video up showing E-61 pre-infusion. (I think that they were using a plumbed in Giotto) When they lifted the lever up to the half way point, water flowed out of the group. They claimed that this was "E-61 Pre-Infusion" and that this is how it worked on all E-61's. The video was up for about a week, then it disappeared. I guess they removed it.

They try to inform the customers, but sometimes they are misleading and inaccurate.

[JohnB]

I think you may soon see that Breville video from SCG disappear also. Yesterday I emailed Breville's U.S. customer service dept to see what they knew about the shim kit. The reply I received was not encouraging as they simply said "Our grinders do not have a free shim kit." I replied back this morning with copies of the Breville tech's posts from the Coffeesnob thread & also included a link to the SCG video. At the same time I emailed the tech at Breville in Aus. & expressed my disappointment with the info I had received from their U.S. operation as well as including a link to the infamous video.

2 hours later I received a reply from Phil at Breville Aus. apologizing & assuring me that I most definitely could get a shim kit with any grinder I purchase from them. 2 minutes later I received an email from the head of beverage operations in the U.S. who also apologized, assured me that customer service would have the correct info going forward, asked for my address so she could send out a kit & asked for my feedback once I had installed the kit. Both of the emails arrived with the SCG video embedded so we know they've seen it & I can't imagine they are very happy about it.

Since I now know that I can get a shim kit & that I have the ear of both Breville Aus & Breville U.S. I may be picking up one of these "Smart Grinders" shortly. I'm going to head over to Bed, Bath & Beyond today or tomorrow to see if they have one on the shelf.

For me this would be primarily a travel grinder for when we load up the Touring & take road trips. I've already got the travel case for the Microcasa & I'm going to put together a padded travel case for the Hario V/P. Also looking into a 12v to 110v converter that I can install in the back of the wagon so we can brew something up on demand.

[symbology]

Good luck if you decide on getting this grinder.

I don't see why SCG would be in trouble over this grinder review. They were sent the grinder and did a honest test/eval. This grinder should not have been released if it requires shimming / fitting in order to work for espresso (as advertised).

[Endo]

I may be picking up one of these "Smart Grinders" shortly. I'm going to head over to Bed, Bath & Beyond today or tomorrow to see if they have one on the shelf.

Can I have a photo of the Breville grinder next to the Speedster?

[JohnB]

We'll have to see about that. Printed out a 20% off Bed, Bath & Beyond coupon today so now I have to find a store with one in stock.

[JohnB]

No joy at BB&B as this is not an in store item. Best they could do was order it in & even with the coupon I'd end up paying $190 with shipping & tax. Good news is I found a Breville 20% off coupon code on line so I bought it direct for $160 shipped. Shim kit is already on it's way so once I receive the grinder & get it set up I'll post my thoughts.

[oton]

I bought it direct for $160 shipped.

LOL Very nice. How much is the Vario there?

[Endo]

For those of us in Canada, you can get it here. Same price as US and includes shipping!

http://www.juicers4life.com/products.php?product_id=133

and here:

http://www.tweedandhickory.com/shopsite ... inder.html

[jbb]

Can I have a photo of the Breville grinder next to the Speedster?

That would be funny. And then link it to all incoming "grinder comes first" and 4M posts! The real question, of course, will be "can it beat the Robur"-or I guess the K10 in this case.

[Endo]

Come on JohnB. You've had the Breville for a few days now. How's it going? Ready to sell the K-10 yet?

[JohnB]

I think that is highly unlikely but so far I am liking the Breville. Since it arrived at a time when I had very little usable espresso (S/O or blend) on hand I've been primarily using it for vac pot grinding. Have to say that in the drip/vac pot range it does a very good job with minimal fines & produces nice looking, fairly fluffy grounds. Switched back to Bunnzilla today & while I did notice an improvement in the cup the brew made using the Breville was very good. I was single dosing my vac pot doses so it might do even better with a hopper full of beans although popcorning didn't seem to be much of an issue. Also keep in mind that the burrs are brand new & will improve with seasoning.

It is on the loud side IMO but I'm one of the few that felt the Vario was loud/unpleasant noise wise. I did play with the espresso settings briefly on Tuesday when it came in. As shipped it was hopeless producing 10 second gushers so I reshimmed using Breville's 1mm + .40mm shim recommendation. This improved things but I ended up adding a .23mm shim. This got me in the mid 20 second ballpark with several adjustments left but by then I was pretty much out of the blend I was using. I'm well stocked up with S/O & espresso blends again so I'll get back to seeing how it does as an espresso grinder next week.

It seems to be a very well thought out grinder feature wise. I like the hopper locking system, the area on the bottom where you can wrap the excess power cord, very nice bin with screw on lid, p/f holders slide in firmly & feel sturdy, manual pulse button in the p/f area, the metal flip up "handle" attached to the upper burr carrier that makes removal fast & easy, digital readout of adjustments with memory & the brushed stainless housing. It does seem slow compared to what I'm used to but not too many folks require a brew grinder that can turn out 2lbs a minute as I've done with Bunnzilla while seasoning the new burrs with old beans.

[Endo]

Sounds encouraging. If it can do decent espresso it will be very hard to beat in the under $500 grinder market. Considering it's only $199 (or less), that's pretty amazing.

[JohnB]

Sad to say the Breville just didn't cut it as an espresso grinder IMO. I think with a noticeable boost in power it might not be too bad but I could never get what I considered a decent tasting shot. When grinding in the pump machine espresso range the grounds plopped out in tight little clumps that required serious WDT to achieve a decent pour. Even then the shot just didn't have the flavors it should have had. It wasn't too bad in the coarser Lever range but it still was very slow & the shots were disappointing. In the end I returned the Breville for credit under their 30 day return policy & will soon be ordering one of OE's Pharos to use for travel, ect.

http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-PHAROS ... _3977.html

If you are looking for a nice brew grinder at an affordable price the Breville would be an excellent choice but I would hate to think of anyone using it as a daily espresso grinder.

[oton]

Ha. When I saw the Pharos I immediately thought of you; I knew you were going to buy one.

[JohnB]

The first batch of Pharos(s) is already sold out so I placed a pre-order for one from the next batch due out in late May. You couldn't ask for a better travel grinder! 68mm commercial conical burrs in a 5lb hand mill. Can't wait to try it out.

[Endo]

Sad to say the Breville just didn't cut it as an espresso grinder IMO.

Can't say I'm too suprised there. After all, it's a Breville.

The first batch of Pharos(s) is already sold out so I placed a pre-order for one from the next batch due out in late May. You couldn't ask for a better travel grinder! 68mm commercial conical burrs in a 5lb hand mill. Can't wait to try it out.

Why buy a Pharos? Just get a replacement burr set for your K-10 and head over to the machine shop to make a simple housing and crank.

How about the Baratza Virtuoso Prescio as a conical travel grinder? It's been getting great reviews lately and only $299. When are you going to review that one?

[JohnB]

Mark Prince already covered that one but it doesn't interest me. My K10 has spoiled me so the idea of being able to bring a 68mm conical grinder anywhere I go is very appealing. I also enjoying modifying my equipment & I see the Pharos as a work in progress.

[Lovey]

I'm awaiting delivery of mine after reading some very good reviews on Coffeesnobs. When it gets here I'll see how it stacks up against the M4 using my limited skills
Steve.

[JohnB]

The M4 is a nice espresso grinder, I used one for a year with my S1V2. Use the Breville for brew grinding & save the M4 for espresso.

[Lovey]

I've had the opposite problem to most other people with one of these it seems. Mine was grinding way too fine for espresso, so I had to remove 2 shims to get it in the correct grinding zone. One little annoyance is that the pf holder that is for the 50-54mm pf's doesn't hold the La Spaz pf as it's too deep. Apart from that, it's going really well at this stage.

[JohnB]

Based on several posts on CS that I've read recently it seems that Breville over compensated for the "not shimmed properly" problem & went too far in the other direction. The Breville will grind for espresso once the shimming is sorted but it is unGodly slow, doesn't allow for micro adjustments & the grounds plop out like little turds that require serious WDT effort if you want a decent pour. Even after all that work the resulting shot was barely drinkable IMO. I compared the same blends & S/Os back to back with my K10 and the Brevile a number of times. I certainly didn't expect the Breville straight shots to equal what I would get from the K10 but I also didn't expect the Breville to turn very good espresso into almost undrinkable swill, which it did.

[oton]

Uhh... I betta kept my Vario.

You pull good shots Lovey?

[JohnB]

While I have never been a big fan of the Vario due to quality control issues, the dual lever set up & price it IS a very good espresso grinder. It turns out a nice fluffy grind & the resulting shots compare well taste wise with what you would get using much more expensive grinders. The posts from vendors on CS touting the Breville as a cheaper alternative to the Vario are self serving at best. It is a good alternative for brew grinding but a poor choice for espresso unless your espresso machine is equally hopeless.

[Endo]

After a "rocky" honeymoon with my Vario, I must say it's starting to grow on me. (I don't think the BCG800 would suit me well if it can't do espressso).

It sits very handsomely on the side of the Vivaldi and when speed is important (like dinner parties), I'm very glad to have it close by.

But when I have the time and want to go for the "God shot", the Mazzer and a accurate scale is the only way to go.

The Vario also serves me well when I have 2 beans going at the same time, and also if I want to grind for drip (say on the Hario).

I guess I've become a spoiled 2 grinder owner.

I may have gotten the Baratza Viruoso Prescio if it had come out first since it would be nice to have a conical option. Also the Vario price is rather steep for something so fragile. (Although I'd miss the automatic dosing option).

[Lovey]

Here's a post I made on Coffeesnobs which one of the mods put into the review category .

G'day all, time for some thoughts on this grinder.

I know its been nearly a week since I've had it, but a 2 year old and a newborn seem to divert my attention these days Wink.

The packaging of the grinder is top notch and protects the grinder, and assorted bits and pieces very nicely. Although you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, the first impressions always count and this one is certainly good.

One slight whinge at this stage involves the hopper. The instructions state to wash the hopper and the ground coffee container prior to use, which I did. The design of the hopper is such that it has an inner and outer portion, having a locking mechanism and gates. This creates space which retains some water after washing and takes a long time to air dry.

The grinder only requires a minimal amount of construction to get it up and running, with the instructions being very easy to follow. It certainly looks impressive and surprisingly, isn’t much smaller than the Macap M4 being only 70mm shorter, although it’s not nearly as heavy.

It comes with 2 group handle/porta filter holders, one for 50-54mm and one for 58mm. The standard La Spazial 53mm g-handles don’t fit into either of these holders, as they're too deep and the spouts touch on the base plate. The naked g-handle fits in, but you still have to hold it whilst grinding, as it won’t 'latch' properly. I can’t comment on the retention of a 58mm g-handle, as I don’t have one available to test.

Now to the purpose of this machine, coffee grinding of course. I loaded up a double shot's worth into the hopper and adjusted the grind to near the finest setting (2 or 3 from the end I think), then hit the start button.

I didn't time the grind (I'll explain why a bit later), but it seemed quite quick, possibly on par with the Macap (which I haven't timed either BTW Roll Eyes).

It didn't seem overly noisy or quiet either. It's probably comparable in volume to the Macap, but it's a different sort/frequency of noise. One has flat burrs with higher RPM and the other has conical burrs with lower RPM. Neither of them is super noisy or whisper quiet, which I wouldn't expect from any grinder BTW Wink.

The grinds seemed to clump a lot, leading me to think that the grind was too fine. I removed the g-handle twice during grinding to distribute, tap and settle the grinds in the basket (which is why I didn't bother timing the grind). I levelled off and tamped, then attempted to pull a shot. No joy on the first activation of the pump or the second, with the third activation rewarding me with a super restricted ristretto of approx. 10ml Shocked.

After tweaking the grind size, I ended up on the coarsest espresso setting, which is adjacent to the percolator setting, which still gave me a very fine grind and choked the La Spaz. I ended up taking out 2 shims (all 4 shims in this grinder are 0.3mm) and trying again. Whilst I was able to pour some decent shots, I found that the grinding range is still a long way from the finest setting.

EDIT - I just pulled out a third shim, but I haven’t tested it as it’s getting a bit late in the arvo and everyone else in the house is having a siesta. I’ll have another go tomorrow morning and see how that goes.

I’ll list some of (my) pro’s and cons thus far.

Pro.
-It’s a good-looking unit.
-Good build quality, it feels solid as well.
-It has some nice features such as multi-sized g-handle holders + a substantial seal-able ground coffee container, easy to read LCD display, a ‘sleep mode’ which turns itself off after 5 minutes of inactivity
-It has a magnetic ground coffee waste tray, which makes it super easy to remove and clean.
-Very easy burr dis assembly for cleaning.
-The grind size and dose are easy to adjust, especially if you need to go from espresso to plunger regularly.

Con.
-Bean hopper retains a fair bit of water after washing (only a problem if you have to wash it).
-The holders don’t hold La Spaziale g-handles.
-The distribution of grinds into the basket isn’t very good (although this could simply be due to the fact that my g-handles don’t fit correctly).

Please don’t take this as any form of recommendation or product bashing; they’re just my limited observations over a couple of days, which someone might find useful. No doubt there'll be more things to be found as I get to know the grinder a bit better.

All the best,
Steve.

[JohnB]

Your shim experience is the exact opposite of mine & most others. When you get the shim kit the instructions suggest a 1.2mm shim stack which is what your grinder had from new. Even on the finest setting my pours were way too fast with the 1.2mm recommendation & I ended up with a 1.8mm stack before I could get a usable pump machine grind about 3 bars from the finest setting. The lever setting was a couple bars coarser. Evidently the production tolerances are all over the map if you've measured the shims correctly. One of the problems with this grinder is that there will be a very narrow window of usability once shimmed properly. If I got a decent 25 second pour at #22 one bar either way would be too big of an adjustment leaving no room for tweaking at a certain dose. As with any good espresso grinder you need to be able to make micro adjustments. Considering the Breville's price point I may be being too critical but that is only because the 800 has been SO over hyped on the C/S forum. For espresso use this grinder is worth exactly what you pay for it & nothing more.

I'd get out your timer & check how long your M4 takes to grind 16g. If it is as slow as the Breville there is something wrong with it. My Breville took 25-30 seconds to grind 18g when I had it shimmed to turn out a usable grind for a pump machine. I would think your M4 would do that in under 10 seconds? According to Baratza the Vario takes about 14 seconds. Endo??

[Endo]

I think it's a bit faster. I have my Vario set to 11.3 sec.

Not sure what weight that is (must be around 16g though). It leaves the right amount of headspace and tastes right, so I just go with that.

[jbb]

My Vario is currently at 11.2 sec, which gives very reproducibly gives me 15.5 g. Except for the first grind after switching settings (like from a drip setting back to espresso) in which case it tends to be on the low side.

[symbology]

My Vario was set anywhere from 5 -5.7 seconds depending on the bean. I would dose this twice to get the proper amount which was between 14-15.5 grams depending. I split the dose in half so I could tap / level the grounds a bit before the PF was full. So 10-11.4 seconds for a double for me.

My new M7D does 14.5oz in 2.5 seconds.

[Endo]

I split the dose in half so I could tap / level the grounds a bit before the PF was full.

Oooooh...interesting idea. I usually do a bit of a "backwards tap" and "side-to-side wiggle" to level things out and settle the grounds a bit better. I'll try your double dose idea.

[symbology]

I split the dose in half so I could tap / level the grounds a bit before the PF was full.

Oooooh...interesting idea. I usually do a bit of a "backwards tap" and "side-to-side wiggle" to level things out and settle the grounds a bit better. I'll try your double dose idea.

Yeah, the new grinder is just too fast to do that with. I may try it, but I fear that it will induce a variance in the dose due to it being just 1.x seconds of grind time.

Something else I did with the Vario, on one of the presets I set it up for a .4 second grind. So, when the beans were getting old, or I just wanted to increase the dose a bit, I could easily do so.

[JohnB]

While the Vario grind times & resulting discussion is fascinating I think Endo answered my question so lets get back to Breville bashing.