The Scace Rental Program

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:18 am

I purchased a Scace and Fluke to test out my machines offset since I had replaced the board to upgrade my machine to VII spec. It was enlightening to see how the temperature fluctuates across a pull and what the offset is and I think part of the value of doing this offset calibration yourself is gaining an understanding of how the temperature changes during a pull.

Since this is something you need rarely or maybe even once it's a pretty expensive setup to buy and now that I have I thought I'd make it available to those on this board to calibrate their own machines. This thread will serve as the place for discussions and reserving the Scace/Fluke setup. The cost will be $50 including the shipping to you and you'll cover the shipping back. I'll include documentation for both and as we collectively learn more we can update this thread.

The Scace is calibrated and accurate and I wrote the thermocouple type on the plug just in case it gets changed. Reply here if you're interested in trying out the Scace and calibrating your machine and it will go out on a first come first serve basis. I don't imagine there will be that many people but we'll see how it works out.

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:34 am

i would like to rent the scace

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:30 pm

We have a winner!

Michael will be the first to test out this idea with the advantage that he lives in my city so if he tries to steal the Scace I can hunt him down via public transit

It should be back next week for whomever would like to be next in line.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:05 pm

Before testing I would suggest reading through the procedure that the CC techs use for determining the correct offset(link below). If you dose directly into the basket(w/o p/f) & leave the p/f locked in place until the last moment you may want to modify your procedure to better reflect your own methods.
s1v2/temptest.php

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:34 pm

I would encourage those of you that indulge yourselves with the Rent-a-Scace and want to get the most out of it, to try a series of measurements per the CC method of removing the PF after each shot until the boiler lamp stops blinking and again leaving the PF installed between shots. You will see a definite differences in intershot stability.

According to my testing the shot-to-shot temps are more stable when you remove the PF between shots. It's almost as if LaSpaziale designed the S1 to optimize temp stability the way the machine is actually used!

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:18 pm

what do they use to test the temperature of the vivaldis at chris coffee

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:30 pm

chas wrote:I would encourage those of you that indulge yourselves with the Rent-a-Scace and want to get the most out of it, to try a series of measurements per the CC method of removing the PF after each shot until the boiler lamp stops blinking and again leaving the PF installed between shots. You will see a definite differences in intershot stability.

According to my testing the shot-to-shot temps are more stable when you remove the PF between shots. It's almost as if LaSpaziale designed the S1 to optimize temp stability the way the machine is actually used!

I agree, collect data using the CC method so you can see if you machine was set correctly from new but if this isn't how you dose then set the machine up the way you use it. I don't leave the p/f off so it would be pointless for me to set the offset that way. I set mine so that one 2 oz flush brings it up to temp as I seldom pull multiple shots without an idle period between them.

Post by **ebprod** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:41 pm

Hi Sakurama,

Put me on the list for the next available rental!! Send me a PM when you are ready to send it.

-Joe

sakurama wrote:I purchased a Scace and Fluke to test out my machines offset since I had replaced the board to upgrade my machine to VII spec. It was enlightening to see how the temperature fluctuates across a pull and what the offset is and I think part of the value of doing this offset calibration yourself is gaining an understanding of how the temperature changes during a pull.

Since this is something you need rarely or maybe even once it's a pretty expensive setup to buy and now that I have I thought I'd make it available to those on this board to calibrate their own machines. This thread will serve as the place for discussions and reserving the Scace/Fluke setup. The cost will be $50 including the shipping to you and you'll cover the shipping back. I'll include documentation for both and as we collectively learn more we can update this thread.

The Scace is calibrated and accurate and I wrote the thermocouple type on the plug just in case it gets changed. Reply here if you're interested in trying out the Scace and calibrating your machine and it will go out on a first come first serve basis. I don't imagine there will be that many people but we'll see how it works out.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:17 pm

Why are we so concerned with static measurements?

Anybody have any transient Scace data? I'd be interested to see the S1 stability during a 25 second shot. Greg Scace says the S1 is crap in this regard but wouldn't provide me any evidence. (Sorry if someone alredy posted it here, I couldn't find it anywhere).

Also, a trace with no flush and another one after a 2 oz flush (overlaid).

And if you have it, another overlay with an E-61, for comparison.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:49 pm

I don't know where Greg gets the "S1 is crap" as far as stability during a shot or if he even said that as I found it to be very good. Forget the blinking lights as they are only telling you the temp at the back of the group boiler where fresh water is entering. I never saw the shot water temp drop during a 2oz flush through the Scace. It either climbed slowly or remained static until the shot/flush ended.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:41 pm

I'm exaggerating of course.

Greg Scace owns a S1. What he said was the Vivaldi has the brew head "hanging off" the boiler which results in a "cold nose" that makes "walk-up-shots" impossible. He did say it was rather easy to deal with (the 2 oz flush).

I'm still searching for the transient temperature graphs. He says they are available, but I can't seem to find them. I thought they might be here.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:03 am

Endo wrote:I'm exaggerating of course.

Greg Scace owns a S1. What he said was the Vivaldi has the brew head "hanging off" the boiler which results in a "cold nose" that makes "walk-up-shots" impossible. He did say it was rather easy to deal with (the 2 oz flush).

The same is true of all the current home DBs in the Vivaldi's price range except the DC Mini & that machine has so many other issues even the nice brew group can't save it. Keep in mind that Greg uses a modified commercial LM at home so his standards are higher then most.

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:22 pm

ebprod wrote:Hi Sakurama,

Put me on the list for the next available rental!! Send me a PM when you are ready to send it.

-Joe

Hi Joe,

I got it back from Michael and sent you a PM.

Gregor

shinto · Post by **shinto** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:08 pm

Can I rent the device for my S1?
I can't wait to see what the real temps are on my machine and hopfully be able to duplicate the superb taste of Del Doge Nero at home.
Please PM when it's available.
Thanks,
Assi

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:20 pm

PM sent.

Gregor

shinto · Post by **shinto** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:28 pm

Thanks Greg , I had a fun testing my S1 V1 with your Scace device.
I found that my S1 is running 4c below what the panel says...
I also found that pulling 2 double shots (pull 1 shut then after the light stops blinking pull another) to get the temp to stabilize after a night of rest.
I belive the espresso shots taste has improved and hope some will invent a PID for the S1
Assi

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:37 pm

shinto wrote: I belive the espresso shots taste has improved and hope some will invent a PID for the S1
Assi

Why would that be an improvement? You still would need to determine the correct offset & then you have to factor it in each time you change temp. With the Vivaldi you set the offset correctly once & forget about it.

Post by **Endo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:45 pm

I'd like to see a PID as well, but I agree it's not a huge improvement. With a PID there is almost no "overshoot". You don't see this on the Vivaldi LEDs (since they conveniently don't display it) but I would bet there is a good 2 or 3 deg overshoot in water temperature compared to a PID (which uses on/off heater bursts to control overshoot).

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next version of the Vivaldi use a PID and display to control both boiler temperatures. Little LEDs seem like leftovers from the Atari days.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:44 pm

I recently upgraded the firmware on my GS/3. The new version has blinking squares on the LCD display that shows when the boilers are on. So this is the first time I've had the capability to see boilers the cycling with the PIDs. They are constantly blinking on and off pulsing to keep at temp vs the S1 that cycles on for 10-15 sec then off for 45-60sec.

shinto · Post by **shinto** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:06 pm

I agree with Endo that La spaziale is still in the Atari days.
Chas do you have a great deal on the GS/3 I want to upgrade?

Assi

Post by **ebprod** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:06 pm

I never saw any overshoot when I had the scace. It was remarkable consistent at getting back to the set mark after the first couple of shots.

-Joe

Endo wrote:I'd like to see a PID as well, but I agree it's not a huge improvement. With a PID there is almost no "overshoot". You don't see this on the Vivaldi LEDs (since they conveniently don't display it) but I would bet there is a good 2 or 3 deg overshoot in water temperature compared to a PID (which uses on/off heater bursts to control overshoot).

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next version of the Vivaldi use a PID and display to control both boiler temperatures. Little LEDs seem like leftovers from the Atari days.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:13 pm

ebprod wrote:I never saw any overshoot when I had the scace. It was remarkable consistent at getting back to the set mark after the first couple of shots.

-Joe

Good to know. I imagine a lot of the overshoot is localised close to the heating element and thermocouple. I assume a lot of that is gone by the team it reaches the brew head. Still, gentle PID ramp-up will always do a better job at keeping things stable.

I was convinced when i got my first PID on my humble Silvia. I love how the heater cycles in progressively shorter bursts and the LED temperature read-out slides right into the optimum brew temperature. Very cool.

By the way, I'd love to borrow the Scace (seeing that my machine was never calibrated). But being in Canada, it seems complicated.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:10 pm

ebprod wrote:I never saw any overshoot when I had the scace. It was remarkable consistent at getting back to the set mark after the first couple of shots.
-Joe

I played around with the Scace on & off for close to two months & I never saw the imagined overshoot. The L/S system does what it is supposed to do & does it well.

Chas - Do the blinking blue lights keep time with the dancing cups on the drip tray?

No lust for the GS3 but someday I might spring for a future version of the Speedster or something similar. I am very happy with my S1V2 so no rush. Much more interested in a roaster capable of doing 1-2lb batches well. That will probably be a home built unit once I get some more experience under my belt.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:03 pm

It's been over a year....but is the Scace Rental Program still going on? I figure it's time I calibrated this thing.

I currently set my machine to a +3C bias. No sure why exactly, except that most machines are set around there and it seems to taste right to me.

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:32 pm

Yeah, of course. I think I was right that there isn't a lot of call for this but I'm happy to still send it out. Send me a PM and we can coordinate.

It's funny as I frequent the board here less now that I have my machine dialed and my coffee is on the mark. It took a while but the S1 is the most reliable part of the equation and now most of my time is working on roasting the beans. I checked my machine last week actually and it was still right on the money so the calibration certainly sticks. Set it and forget it.

Gregor

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:33 am

Thanks for the quick reply Gregor! PM sent.

shinto · Post by **shinto** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:45 am

Save it for a second round :-)
Assi

Post by **Endo** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:50 pm

Bad news. Seems the UPS guys strike again.

The rental Scace got damaged during shipment:

: Thermocouple snapped off; IMG_0988 (480x320).jpg (63.71 KiB) Viewed 170805 times

Seems the long metal thermocouple that protrudes from the basket got snapped off.

I discussed it with Gregor and we agreed I'd bring it to my thermocouple instrumentation lab at work and have them try and repair it (I may have to buy them a few coffees as payment). I'd like to thank Gregor for his generosity in renting it out and I'll try my best to get it back in working order so the rental program can continue. But just a note to anyone shipping it in the future.....DON'T SKIMP ON THE BUBBLEWRAP!

I opened up the Scace to save them some time during repair. I thought some of you might be interested to see what's inside. Basically a plastic puck with thermocouple in the middle (and a water fitting threaded in).

: Scace Inner; IMG_0989 (480x320).jpg (33.92 KiB) Viewed 170805 times

: Scace Outer; IMG_0990 (480x320).jpg (33.38 KiB) Viewed 170805 times

Post by **Endo** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:13 pm

As promised, here's Gregor's rental Scace repaired and ready to go.

: Scace Repair; IMG_0993 (480x320).jpg (39.9 KiB) Viewed 170775 times

I had to make a Scace V1.1 and replace the lead after it snapped off during shipping. It's now a flexible lead with no glue. I think it will be more durable since it will bend rather than break during shipping. In any case, be careful not to bend it back and forth too many times. I also addded a second junction close to the PF. Seems to work great.

Next step: make some HD videos and graphs.

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:21 pm

Yeah! You rock Endo. Let me know what the repair cost or at least let me refund your rental. That'll teach me to write "broken measuring device" on the customs form to avoid duty - they made it true. I think from now on I'll cut custom foam for a hard case so we won't have any more trouble. I wish I had the graphing Fluke but I think it's fine. Let us know how it goes and where your offset is. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Gregor

Post by **Endo** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:26 pm

I'm glad to "pay it forward" and do my part for the rental program. My thanks go to you Gregor for your generosity and for starting this excellent initiative!

It's especially helpful for me since I bought my machine uncalibrated and used a +3C offset based purely on my own taste buds and statistical info from other owners. Based on the preliminary Scace measurements, it seems to be bang on so I won't be adjusting anything! How about that? I may have to promote myself to the ranks of "1 deg F expert".

....NOT.

One thing you notice right away when you use the Scace is that anything better than 1 deg C accuracy is totally useless. The temperature variation you get on the S1 when warming its "cold nose" is about 3 to 5 deg C from first warming shot to the third. I believe the designer knew this shortcoming when they designed it and that's why they used a 5 deg C resolution originally. It's probably also what triggered the Dalla Corte head design by the same designers.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:17 pm

One thing that freaks me out with the Scace is how the temp drops by about 20C in 5 seconds when you remove it from the grouphead!

I assume it's just the thermocouple exposed to the cold air. Either that or I need to work on a heated tamping stand!

Post by **Endo** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:16 pm

Here's my first HD video with the Scace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2nAP53H8zI

I seem to be getting a slow but steady increase in temperature (rather than the rock solid set temperature I see in other videos). I'm sure it has something to do with my warmup. Still, I had the machine on for 1 hour and used 2 long warming flushes so I'm not sure where the temperature creep is coming from.

I need to do some more testing it seems to figure this out.

Post by **oton** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:13 am

What is you offset? +3?

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:30 am

Yes. Offset is +3C.

I get some quite different final shot temperatures depending how many warming shots I pull. I'm setting at 94C and I can get anything from 93C to 96C. All seem to ramp up higher the longer the shot is pulled.

I find this strange since the other Scace video on YouTube showed a very flat temperature once the maximum temp was reached. I'll plot it out in a graph when I get a chance since that explains it better.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:54 am

What are you doing to mimic the dosing regimen between shots?

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:31 am

JohnB wrote:What are you doing to mimic the dosing regimen between shots?

Nothing right now. I just wait for the lights to get back to 94C and pull another shot.

I see what you're saying. Perhaps I am am overshooting. Can you point me to the Chris Coffee Scace procedure so I can use the same procedure and intershot wait times?

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:30 am

s1v2/temptest.php

Before reading the Chris Coffee procedure, I was waiting for the lights to stop blinking before starting another shot but I was leaving the Scace attached to the machine. In this case I saw what you are noticing that the temp continues to drift upward. However, when following the CC procedure where you remove the Scace device after a shot until the temp light go off, replace it, and take another temperature reading, the back-to-back temp readings are much flatter. Of course, this is a much more realistic emulation of actual usage.

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:39 am

Excellent! Thanks for the link (I knew I had read it somewhere before).

I'll use the CC calibration method in my next series of tests.

I'll repeat the method here in case anybody is looking for it:

"We test each machine and set the offset accordingly. Some machines 0ºC offset, some -2ºC, some -1ºC. We use the Scace device and a digital Fluke.

Here is how we perform the test to calibrate.

First let the machine completely heat up.
Leave the Scace device in the group.
We program one of the buttons to dispense 2 ounces of water.
We press that button and pull two ounces through the Scace.
We then take the Scace out of the group.
Watch the blinking lights till the set temp is reached, which takes app 30 seconds, and then put the Scace back into the group and take our reading.
The 30 seconds represents the time it take someone to grind and tamp coffee before putting the portafilter back into the group. We repeat it three or four times before making any adjustments."

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:16 pm

What you want to do is mimic your normal procedure when running the Scace tests. I've used the CC method but thats not how I dose so I do it a bit differently. I also seldom cut a shot at 25 seconds as I prefer long, slow ristretto shots. Set up the offset so you get accurate temps the way YOU normally use the machine.

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:22 pm

JohnB wrote:Set up the offset so you get accurate temps the way YOU normally use the machine.

Yes. That will be the next step.

I plan on eventually measuring precise times and volumes from my regular routine and calibrating using that. But at this point I just want to try the CC method.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:00 pm

JohnB wrote:What you want to do is mimic your normal procedure when running the Scace tests. I've used the CC method but thats not how I dose so I do it a bit differently. I also seldom cut a shot at 25 seconds as I prefer long, slow ristretto shots. Set up the offset so you get accurate temps the way YOU normally use the machine.

How would you mimic a long ristretto using the Scace? Since the Scace is pretty "hardwired" to give 2oz in 25 sec, you can certainly choose to have it deliver 1.5 oz in 19s or 3oz in 38sec, but if your normal usage is 1.5oz in 35 sec that's not so easy

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:25 pm

I think you'd have to change the jet much like you would on a carburetor.

It brings up the question of how much should you stray from the "standard" definition of a shot. Ristrettos are more an American thing which is one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a triple basket. I suppose a ristretto could be a similar 25-30 second 2oz shot but from a larger than standard dose of 14g (like 18-21) and you could mimic that by using a smaller jet. I think that's one of the things the Scace brings up is the tendency for the machine to climb a little. You use the Scace to set the offset per your routine.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:42 pm

It's not made to be adjustable though. You'd need to modify it and risk completely hosing it up if you don't know what you are doing. I doubt you want people taking advantage of your loaner program to be doing that.

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:44 pm

No, no. I agree with you but I think that John has his own Scace so maybe that's something he's thought about. I think staying with the standard is the most consistent way to go about things as far as a measuring device goes.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:57 pm

I did my testing with a Scace which had been modified to accept different size orifices/jets so I could try different flow rates. 1.5 oz in 35 seconds, ect. Easy enough to do with a couple simple fittings. With the Speedster I didn't see much of a difference temp wise between 50ml & 80ml. It hits the set temp early in the shot & never creeped up more the .5*F in 40 seconds. Ended up with a -3.2*F offset instead of the generic -4*F.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone should start modifying the rental Scace only saying that you need to work as much of your normal routine as possible into the testing regimen.

Post by **oton** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:28 pm

I just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RRA2M7aySU

This behavior is similar to what you get, Endo?

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:35 pm

Thanks. I never saw this video.

I've been looking mostly at this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q2CdJMWTFg

It seems the guy you showed with the blue thermometer is attempting to show the stability for successive shots with no temperature increase. It seems to show roughly a +/- 0.5C stability for an infinite amount of successive shots. Impressive, but not hard to recreate. I got the same result when I tried this on my machine.....but this is not realistic.

As others have pointed out, nobody actually pulls shots like this (since you must remove the PF for at least 30 seconds to grind and fill the PF with coffee). So I prefer to do endless amounts of successive 30 second Scace water shots alternating with 30 second waits (with the Scace out of the group head and emptied of water).

This better simulates the "maxed out" workload I would experience on my machine (which is what I'm aiming for).

Now the trick becomes, how many warming shots (and what volume) do I need to get the rythm stabilized. Keeping in mind I have limited water on the Mini Vivaldi.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:06 pm

How many shots do you normally pull in each "session".

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:48 pm

Another thought about stability:

A standard portafilter holder is 725g and I just machined another one down to be naked and it's 425g so we're looking at much less mass for thermal stability. The Scace mimics a normal portafilter but I'm guessing a lot of us are pulling shots with nakeds. Not sure how much that will affect things.

Post by **oton** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:33 am

Endo wrote:
Now the trick becomes, how many warming shots (and what volume) do I need to get the rythm stabilized. Keeping in mind I have limited water on the Mini Vivaldi.

Coud you test temp stability when the water tank is refilled with fresh water? I've always have the sensation that the group looses temp and I have to do some warming shots.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:31 am

oton wrote:
Coud you test temp stability when the water tank is refilled with fresh water? I've always have the sensation that the group looses temp and I have to do some warming shots.

This is basically what is happening in the video you posted below (the blue meter video). The guy is pulling shots continuously and the brew boiler is refilling as necessary. The interesting thing is that the Scace temperature stays VERY constant despite the influx of cold water to the boiler. I assume this is due to the large heater and small boiler. (This is probably the testing method they used to design the boiler.) What I find real interesting is that when I REMOVE the PF and wait 30 seconds between pulls, the temperature actually creeps up more! The seems counter-intuitive at first, but I think this may be because the cool, fresh water temp has more time to heat up and overshoots. This more than offsets the cooling of the PF from removal.

I don't actually think the PF removal time and thermal mass of the PF have as big an effect as we think. I realize now I have to be careful about making assumptions about the PF cooling and heating from the Scace since the actual thermocouple is well insulated from the PF metal and all we are really seeing when it is removed is the instantaneous thermocouple cooling in the cooler air.

Post by **BobUSN** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:39 am

I'm amazed at the temp stability indicated in that video, especially given that the machine's temp lights have dropped off & show the machine is reheating.

Do many here pull the basket out of the PF & just dose that with grinds, leaving the PF to stay warm in the GH? The only drawback I thought of is that the click of the basket into the PF (I considerably loosened my spring, but haven't removed it altogether) may induce channeling...I keep the tamper on the puck as I insert the basket into the PF, but I don't know if that really helps.

Quite frankly, I can't taste the difference whether I do it this way or just pull out the whole PF to dose, so I pull the whole thing. I guess I haven't developed my palate yet!

(Apologies if you've addressed this earlier on the board & I missed it.)

Thanks!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:14 pm

The brew boiler refill & the temp sensor are both located at the rear of the boiler so the lights will drop off even though the water up front that is being used for the shot is still up to temp.

You can make it easier to remove/replace the basket by tweaking the p/f spring. Just take it out & straighten some of the kinks, rounding it out more. I made a ridgeless basket from a stock L/S basket which slide in & out of the p/f easily. Still have it around somewhere. Another option is to bevel the upper edge of the p/f so the basket ridge doesn't lock in tightly.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:21 pm

BobUSN wrote:I'm amazed at the temp stability indicated in that video, especially given that the machine's temp lights have dropped off & show the machine is reheating.

Once the group head is warmed up, it is amazingly stable. On the other hand, for "walk up" shots, it's rather poor.

BobUSN wrote:Do many here pull the basket out of the PF & just dose that with grinds, leaving the PF to stay warm in the GH?

The Vivaldi is all about convenience. It seems many users will experiment with different techniques, but in the end, they usually grow tired of unnecessary steps like basket removal (and distribution)

.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:20 am

Endo wrote: The Vivaldi is all about convenience. It seems many users will experiment with different techniques, but in the end, they usually grow tired of unnecessary steps like basket removal (and distribution) .

No need for extra distribution but I still prefer dosing into the basket out of the p/f.

Post by **oton** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:54 pm

As I don't have that Scace thing... could anyone with the machine offset corrected measure the temperature of a 90ml shot into a styrofoam cup or something like that, please? Thanks.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:09 pm

oton wrote:As I don't have that Scace thing... could anyone with the machine offset corrected measure the temperature of a 90ml shot into a styrofoam cup or something like that, please? Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that method will not be accurate enough for calibration.

From what I've read, it seems most machines are offset between +2C and +4C so I think the best setting for an uncalibrated machine in +3C. As I said, that's what I used before I rented the Scace and it turned out to be bang on.

Post by **oton** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:28 pm

I know that is not to will be accurate. It's only to give me an aproximate idea of what's going on on my machine; I usually got a lot of sour shots.. If I remember correctly I get 90ºC in a cup with a 94ºC setting.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:39 pm

I tried the styrofoam cup method several times but I could never get it to work. I think JohnB had some success with it if I remember correctly.

Are you saying your current offset is +4C?

Post by **ebprod** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Has anyone checked the new machines coming from Chris Coffee yet? Mine was originally set to -1, but after the board upgrade and the scace rental, I ended up at +3.

It seems that this difference is common for those with the upgrade. Is there an inherent difference between the old boards and the new upgrade, or were the machines originally calibrated wrong?

-Joe

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:32 am

If I remember correctly, the old board only had negative offset (can only make it cooler).

In this case, I imagine the designers would have hardwired a larger than necessary positive offset (overly hot) into the older machines so that the machine could be tweaked cooler with the one-sided offset.

This was before my time so maybe someone else can confirm this?

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:53 am

Here is something interesting I noticed when using a Scace with the Mini Vivaldi:

If you have the mechanical preinfusion installed, when you normally pour a warming shot in a regular PF you'll get say 2oz but the pre-infusion will never activate. When you try doing the warming shots with the Scace installed, the restrictor creates enough backpressure to activate pre-infusion and about half the warming shot is used to fill the pre-infusion chamber. In other words, you only get half the volume in your warming shot (about 1 oz).

What this means is you need to add temporaily add 1 oz to your warming shot volume setting if using the Scace if you are using mechanical pre-infusion.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:35 am

Endo wrote:If I remember correctly, the old board only had negative offset (can only make it cooler).

In this case, I imagine the designers would have hardwired a larger than necessary positive offset (overly hot) into the older machines so that the machine could be tweaked cooler with the one-sided offset.

This was before my time so maybe someone else can confirm this?

Hmmm, maybe. The only other theory I had was that the CC techs were using the Scace with their Digital thermometer set for a K thermocouple (normal default) rather than for a T thermocouple. The measurement difference if you do this is almost identical to the offset difference between the -1C offset I found my machine set to and what the Scace said it should be (+2C). But I like your theory better as it's hard to believe that the CC techs would make that mistake (just because I initially did!).

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:46 am

oton wrote:I know that is not to will be accurate. It's only to give me an aproximate idea of what's going on on my machine; I usually got a lot of sour shots.. If I remember correctly I get 90ºC in a cup with a 94ºC setting.

What are you currently using for an offset? Have you tried increasing it 1-2* to see if you notice an improvement?

The styro cup test method can get you close enough to see if your offset is way off. You would need an accurate digital thermometer which you would check by doing a boiling water calibration corrected for altitude & barametric pressure. You want to cut the cup down as much as possible while still getting a decent seal against the group gasket. I chopped it & fit it into my bottomless p/f. Also make sure you insert the probe just above the bottom of the cup & do not allow it to touch the other side of the cup.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:01 am

My S1V2 was set to zero by CC & I ended up using +1*C after the board upgrade. I tried +2*C for awhile but reduced it after further testing. I imagine they set it as hot as they could go at the time. From my experience I would consider a +3 or +4* offset to be pretty hot but maybe the Minis require that????

One thing to consider is that you have a number of Vivaldi owners Scace testing their own machines who have never used a Scace in their lives. Is everyone running the correct procedure? Are they all weighing the water coming out of the Scace to make sure they have the correct flow?

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:46 pm

JohnB wrote: From my experience I would consider a +3 or +4* offset to be pretty hot but maybe the Minis require that????

I can't see why the Minis would require a different offset.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:20 pm

JohnB wrote: One thing to consider is that you have a number of Vivaldi owners Scace testing their own machines who have never used a Scace in their lives. Is everyone running the correct procedure? Are they all weighing the water coming out of the Scace to make sure they have the correct flow?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. If one person walks up to an S1 and using the Scace to set the offset and then someone else walks up to the same machine and uses the same Scace, they might come up with a different offset. I vaguely remember reading something Greg Scace wrote a couple of years ago that, due to this effect, people can't really compare absolute temperatures on a machine but that the temperature stability readings for a machine should be comparable.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:23 pm

chas wrote: If one person walks up to an S1 and using the Scace to set the offset and then someone else walks up to the same machine and uses the same Scace, they might come up with a different offset.

Yes and no. Totally depends on intershot wait time. If you have the same wait time and volume between shots, I think every Scace user would get the same offset (within 1 degree C). Pull endless back-to-back shots (like the blue thermometer video dude), and the temperature will stabilize at the same value no matter how experienced you are with a Scace.

In other words....for your first shot....your warm-up technique is everything. For your 2nd shot and beyond...what you get only depends on your offset.

Geeeez.....this is starting to sound like HX in reverse!

If I could pass on only one word of advice for the Vivaldi it would be: make your first shot a milk drink....make your second shot your espresso.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:50 pm

Endo wrote:
I can't see why the Minis would require a different offset.

Has anyone received a Vivaldi from CC with the offset set to +3* or +4* since the upgrade?

Post by **ebprod** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:06 pm

I have a friend that just got his Vivaldi (plumbed) last week. I'll see if I can get him to check his offset.

JohnB wrote:
Endo wrote:
I can't see why the Minis would require a different offset.
Has anyone received a Vivaldi from CC with the offset set to +3* or +4* since the upgrade?

Post by **BobUSN** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:00 pm

Endo wrote:If I could pass on only one word of advice for the Vivaldi it would be: make your first shot a milk drink....make your second shot your espresso.

Ha...I'm making both of them milk drinks! Because that's the way I roll...

My wife, though she has a discerning palate, likes hers with Monin caramel sauce, so her drink is usually the first one I make.

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:55 pm

My wife takes her coffee black but an Americano is as close to a straight shot as she is going to get. She can't do dairy so I make her soy lattes with either Monin chocolate or hazelnut syrup. With the syrup in there I don't feel too guilty about using her shot to dial in the grinder.

Post by **BobUSN** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:20 am

JohnB wrote:With the syrup in there I don't feel too guilty about using her shot to dial in the grinder.

Exactly...especially when even that first shot is WAAAAAAY better than what you usually get at the coffee shop. No guilt here!

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:04 pm

So I had the chance to go to the Ultimate Barrista Challenge this weekend where four top finalists came together to battle it out. My girlfriend was a judge of the latte art.

I spent my morning backstage with the barristas bothering them with questions while they warmed up and set up the machines. The machines were the top of the line Astorias which had Barometric readings, and six PIDs (three for each group: one for steam, one for boiler and one for the grouphead which had it's own heater). I thought they would be fussing with the temperatures more but they all sort of accepted the machines at about 200-202° and spent their time adjusting the grind and the dose and tasting the shots until they got where they wanted. It was incredibly valuable to taste shot after shot with them as they explained what they were looking for.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention it as they simply dialed the machines in by taste which made sense. They all kept the temp around 93-94°c and never strayed.

On a side note I had a true triple basket made last week and once I get an accurate scale I'll report back on the dose but it's about 3mm deeper than the original triples so I'm guessing 21-23g. I'll post some shots of it when I get back from Daytona next week and have run enough coffee through it to give an good opinion.

Post by **ebprod** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:31 pm

I just talked to my friend that received his VII last week. The offset was set by Chris Coffee to +3.

ebprod wrote:I have a friend that just got his Vivaldi (plumbed) last week. I'll see if I can get him to check his offset.

JohnB wrote:
Endo wrote:
I can't see why the Minis would require a different offset.
Has anyone received a Vivaldi from CC with the offset set to +3* or +4* since the upgrade?

Post by **MichaelN** » Sun May 02, 2010 8:43 pm

Is the Scace rental program still on? If so, please add me to the list. Note that I'm in Canada, therefore it may be better to lump me together with another Canadian in order to minimize back and forth across the border.

My VII arrived with no offset programmed and I'd love to check if the +2C that I applied is accurate.

Thanks;
Michael

Post by **coffeeowl** » Tue May 11, 2010 8:56 pm

Hi!
I would also like to participate, but I live in Europe. Hope it's ok (please

).
Thanks!

sakurama · Post by **sakurama** » Tue May 11, 2010 9:53 pm

I'm sure we could work this out but we'll have to increase the shipping. I'll try to come up with an estimate later this week but if you don't hear from me just drop me a PM - I've been pretty busy lately.

Post by **MichaelN** » Wed May 12, 2010 7:58 am

Thanks for getting back, but I think I am already properly set and no longer need use of the Scace. I made a very crude one myself using styrofoam cups and a very good electronic meat thermometer; I called it my styro-scace.

I first ensured the the meat thermometer was properly calibrated by testing it in a bath if ice water and then in a bath of boiling distilled water. Then I'd run double shots through my styro-scace and obtained similar results to what was posted previously: requiring two warm up shots before reaching and then maintaining the desired temperature. I repeated this for every temperature setting from 91 to 97C. I am very pleased with the S!'s temperature accuracy once you have accommodated for the offset.

My offset is now at +2C; the machine was shipped with no offset pre-programmed.

Michael

Post by **oton** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:37 am

I did the ultra poor man system.

Set temp at 97ºC. Set extended range at +3. Do you see boiling water coming out from the group?

Yes > You are at 100ºC or more. Adjust offset -1, -2 and so on until you do not see boiling water, therefore you are at 99ºC and you know you need +1C to reach 100ºC; so adjust offset acordingly.
No > You are not reaching 100ºC. Adjust offset at +1, +2 and so on until you see boiling water.Thats the offset needed.

I'm at +2.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 12, 2010 11:22 am

Very creative!

But, I wonder how accurate? I suspect there might be considerable drop in temperature as a the water enters a cup where you can actually check it's boiling? (There are also the minor pressure and altitude effects for the water boiling point).

Maybe someone who owns a Scace can verify the accuracy of this method (or at least compare to estimate the temp drop).

Post by **oton** » Wed May 12, 2010 12:52 pm

Haha! Well, it was more a time having fun playing with temps and settings than a method to adjust my machine, however, at the end, I thought: "mmm, perhaps isn't too wrong to "calculate" the offset".

I didn't drop the water into a cup. You have to see if boiling water comes out directly from the shower -you'll see the bubbles running across the shower and you'll hear the boiling noise- , so there is no temp drop.

I switched to Vivaldi 1 mode to check what happens with that strange temps of 110 and 120ºC... boy, it was scary

Strange and not so good noises appears and the first drops of water do not really drop due to evaporation.

Endo wrote:Maybe someone who owns a Scace can verify the accuracy of this method (or at least compare to estimate the temp drop).

Don't you have your Mini adjusted? If you set 97 with ext. temp at +3 you should see what I say ... well, if it works.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 12, 2010 1:06 pm

oton wrote: Don't you have your Mini adjusted? If you set 97 with ext. temp at +3 you should see what I say ... well, if it works.

I'll give it a try.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 12, 2010 2:54 pm

oton wrote: Don't you have your Mini adjusted? If you set 97 with ext. temp at +3 you should see what I say ... well, if it works.

Too be accurate you would first need to figure out at what temperature water boils at your elevation & with your current barametric pressure. 100*C is no more correct for everyone then 212*F unless you live at sea level.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 12, 2010 3:42 pm

Yes. Worth mentioning again. (I mentioned it in my post originally).

Just so others can get an idea of the change; going up from sea level to 3000ft drops the boiling point from 100C to 97C.

For me this is not an issue (since I'm at sea level), but the atmospheric pressure changes with weather as well, so you'll need to factor that as well. (Although, this usually has an effect of less than 1C so I usually omit this as well.....unless I'm doing measurements during a hurricane).

Everything is usually available if you check your local airport website.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 12, 2010 4:17 pm

Endo wrote: Everything is usually available if you check your local airport website.

That will give you the elevation of the airport but around here we have hills & valleys. There are websites that allow you to pinpoint the elevation of your exact address & they will even display a photo of your house from the street. A little disturbing but that's the internet.

Post by **Richard** » Thu May 13, 2010 5:23 pm

JohnB wrote:. . . websites that allow you to pinpoint the elevation of your exact address . . .

Some GPS/mapping software gives very precise elevations above sea level.

Post by **lessthanjoey** » Thu May 13, 2010 5:35 pm

I would be very interested in renting the Scace. I'm in SF.

Thanks,

Joe

Post by **LJCoffeeGuy** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:11 am

I, too, am interested in the scace rental and I'm in Texas. Please contact me if you are still renting/sending it out.

Thanks!
Darren

Post by **Dodger1** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:13 am

If your still doing this I'd like to rent it.

Keith

Post by **innermusic** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:55 pm

2.5 years later... is the scace still availabe to rent?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes, but I have it at the moment.

Post by **innermusic** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:22 pm

chas wrote:Yes, but I have it at the moment.

Would love to be next on the list.
I just tried putting crumpled aluminum foil in the basket and shoving a Fluke probe in the top, but it read 90 for a 94 setting and I am sure that can't be right. Also tried the probe using the rubber backflsh disk and that was 88.
Still messing around with the offset but I'm prerry sure -2 or -3 is about right.

Firochromis · Post by **Firochromis** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:30 pm

Is this programme still going on? :)

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:57 pm

As far as I know. However, I'm not sure how agreeable he'd be to sending it to Turkey.

Post by **jinx** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:04 pm

I would like to rent time with the Scace. I'm in Baltimore, and I'm familiar with the care of technical equipment. Please let me know if it is available, and what the current costs are.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:52 pm

Try sending a private message to "Sakurama".

Post by **jinx** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:13 pm

Not allowed for noobs, so I guess I have to spread some love first.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:26 pm

Try it again now.