What made you pick the Vivaldi (if even), and not an E61?

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:51 am

I'm about to move to WA for the next few years, and I'll have to leave my current setup behind in Holland (the country in Europe, not OH

) so that's the reason I've been reading about espresso machines a lot lately, mainly to figure out what kind of machine I want and just to see what's available at what pricing.

I know the Vivaldi is a bit of a newcomer, as it was introduced in '06. The E61s have been around since '61 so their design must have been perfected over the years. But now that I know a little more about E61s, I found out they are pretty good and stable, apply mechanical pre-infusion, but are not that much state-of-the-art... They are available for less than a Vivaldi, but there's a lot of quality differences between models. From what I understand, Faema invented the E61 and Vibiemme now uses exactly these group heads on their machines. Most of the others are simplified or cheaper versions and allegedly less sophisticated.

I understand the Vivaldi is a bit of a bargain because of its double boiler, the rotary pump (on the non-Mini) and it's PID. To me the downside is you don't have the same great visibility when working on your shot, there is not as much open space around the head.

So did any of you consider an E61, and why? And if so, with what kind of machine did you end up buying? And in hindsight, would you reconsider your choice? Do you think the Vivaldi does produce a better cup?

Oh! And what grinder did you end up with? I've read the HB 'Titan Grinder Project' article and am convinced that a good grinder is an absolute necessity to producing good shots. In this article, the Cimbali Max ends up with the most points and the Macap MXK ends up second.

Post by **woodchuck** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:22 am

Double boiler, good temperature control, short stature and a great service reputation from Chris Coffee Service. One of the better decisions I've made of late. Certainly compared to my investments in the stock market :-)

Cheers

Ian

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:22 am

So you're saying the qualities of the Vivaldi make it a class on its own? That's great to hear, but did you even look at an E61? Or were you looking for a GS3 or a Synesso and found out they were too expensive :) Frankly, I think the VII is not that good looking, not compared to a Synesso, but I expect it's a design that'll grow on me. And yes, I can really see why it's good value for money.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:44 am

The Vivaldi was released in April 2005 according to the original H-B review. It does not have a PID & I wouldn't consider it a bargain but CC has done a good job of holding down the price compared to overpriced D/Bs like the Dalla Corte Mini & Vibi D/D.

The E61 is used on single boiler, heat exchanger & double boiler machines. Which ones are you comparing the Vivaldi to? Having the grouphead hanging out in the breeze is fine if it has heated water flowing through it to preheat it(E61). If it doesn't then tucking it inside the machine as much as possible is a good idea. There is plenty of open space under the g/h where you would be looking at your shot but it would be nice if it was up a little higher when using a bottomless p/f. I solved this issue by installing taller adjustable feet on my machine.

When I decided on buying an Espresso machine I narrowed my choices down to the Quickmill Vetrano & the Vivaldi S1. I initially went with the Vetrano based on price, looks & the fabled E61 g/h. In less the 2 weeks I decided that temp surfing & polishing a shiny metal box were not for me. I returned the Vetrano to Chris Coffee Service & came home with the S1V2 & I have never regretted that decision once. You might want to read Ian's recent review of the updated S1V2 on Home Barista.

As far as a grinder I bought the stepless Macap M4 w/doser with my machine & I've been happy with it. That said I will consider upgrading at some point & have started watching the used Super Jolly auctions on Ebay.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:56 am

Gabelstaplerfahrer wrote: Frankly, I think the VII is not that good looking, not compared to a Synesso, but I expect it's a design that'll grow on me. And yes, I can really see why it's good value for money.

The Synesso is definitely a beautiful machine but it's 4 times the cost of the S1. The Vivaldi does grow on you & has a style all its own that you can't get from the generic looking SMB machines. You will also enjoy NOT having to constantly wipe finger prints off the sides & you won't burn your fingers/hand on the hot side panel or the grouphead.

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:11 am

JohnB wrote:... [not] constantly wipe finger prints ... won't burn your fingers/hand ...

I managed to burn myself twice on my Gaggia Baby Twin (see avatar), because I couldn't see it the portafilter lock ring, but it is definitely bound to happen with an E61, especially if you have guests (kids!). The fingerprint part, yes, that will become annoying after a while.
But I think your best point is that the E61 machines all look kind of the same, and not to hurt any feelings, but in my humble opinion some are just plain ugly (think Expobar

). Ah well, they will probably grow on you too, if the coffee they produce is good enough.

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:18 am

I assume you're using a KitchenAid grinder for filter or French press? I was thinking about doing that too, and maybe for cupping, because it doesn't leave much grounds in the grinding chamber.

But now I'm wondering how they manage to set the temp of a VII with a one degree precision, without a PID. It could be just a P controller.

Will read Ian's review, maybe I've already seen it though. Thanks for the detailed info!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:20 am

While the Vivaldi p/f lock ring does hang down about 28mm below the cover I seldom even look at it. Once you get use to the machine you just reach under with the p/f & it falls right into place.

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:26 am

Does it have enough flat areas around the group head, so I can mount LED's like in my avatar? They don't have to be identical, just something that would give me some light. I think it looks great and helps identify blonding before it's too late.

Post by **DaveM** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:32 am

Hi All,

After lurking here and at CG and HB for the past 5 weeks this is my first post. I'm a total newbie to the home espresso scene but have done much reading... and learning here. Thanks much to everyone that contributes here!

I eventually decided to go with a Vivaldi Mini II after seriously considering the Andreja Premium, an H61 machine. Why? I only have 17 1/4" of space under my cabinets, no good access to plumbed-in water and I did not want to have to move the machine each time I need to fill the water reservoir. The Mini's design is easy to fill without having to move the machine. Secondly, given my lack of experience, I felt I could get up to speed much quicker with a dual boiler design, allowing me to learn more about what's going into the cup than how to get it there. So far this has worked pretty well. Only a few sink shots the first day while I got the grinder dialed-in. Most of my drinks have been far better than what I typically get in a cafe though I still need LOTS of practice!

I also purchased the Cimbali Max Hybrid grinder. My main reasons were based on the many positive reviews of this machine, the counter friendly size, and the style, which IMO, looks good with the Vivaldi II. I think the Vivaldi style is kind of an acquired taste. I like the somewhat commercial look of it but wish there was less plastic. All said though I'm very happy with my choices.

BTW, I got everything I needed to get started from Chris Coffee and was extremely pleased with their service. I ordered everything one morning and it was delivered to my door the next day! OK, I live in upstate NY so it didn't have to go far but this is still excellent service!

Dave

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:33 am

Gabelstaplerfahrer wrote:I assume you're using a KitchenAid grinder for filter or French press? I was thinking about doing that too, and maybe for cupping, because it doesn't leave much grounds in the grinding chamber.

The KA grinder was bought before the espresso set up & as you say is my press/finum filter grinder. It does a much better job of turning out the coarse press pot grind I like then the M4.

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:38 am

And what color did you pick Dave? I've seen a utube video of the red one (this video perfectly shows why I want lights on my machine), can't really say if it's bright enough to be really good looking like the Francis!Francis! machines, their red color is fantastic.

Black looks good by the way.

Edit: Got a picture of the red one.

Post by **DaveM** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:59 am

Black was the "safer" choice for us.

And for the record, plus I haven't yet figured out how to make a signature here, I also got a Bumper tamper, stand and knockbox, the progressive pre-infusion option, and a bottomless portafilter. I'm still getting the occasional side stream squirt with the nude PF but I'm learning... I think!

Dave

MDL · Post by **MDL** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:06 am

As someone else already asked, which E61 setup are you comparing (HX, double boiler)? I bought my Vivaldi in April of 2007 after long discussions with Chris and others at his business plus much lurking on the web. I was comparing to E61 HX machines and decided that I didn't want to bother with the temperature surfing and really wanted to be able to steam milk, make tea and pull shots without having to think about the temperature.

The Vivaldi has been super for me and I would suggest that anyone give it serious consideration. Chris is now selling the new Izzo Alex Duetto double boiler E61 machine. If I was buying today I would certainly consider it. Based upon what I have read (no discussions with Chris and I have never seen or touched the machine) I think that I would still buy the Vivaldi today.

Initially I was concerned about how the Vivaldi would look. After receiving it and living with it I really like the somewhat retro, old smooth look and it is far easier to keep clean than a stainless box.

In terms of temperature control on the Vivaldi, all electronic temperature controls are not PIDs. The Vivaldi temperature controller is not a PID, however it does a quite good job as is demonstrated in numerous posts on this forum and on CoffeeGeek.

Good luck with your shopping,
Mark

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:10 am

Gabelstaplerfahrer wrote:Does it have enough flat areas around the group head, so I can mount LED's like in my avatar? They don't have to be identical, just something that would give me some light. I think it looks great and helps identify blonding before it's too late.

Heres a pic of the group head area.
[img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums ... .jpg[/img]

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:24 am

I would prefer a double boiler, which would/should mean no or less temp surfing. But something I really want is the ability to more or less precisely set the temperature of the water, so I can experiment with that and single origins. I know there is some controversy about single origins, but I'd really like to try and find out what it's like for myself. As far as I understand, that would be impossible or really hard with an HX, right?

On top of that, the ability to steam well gets a high priority. I know from experience that most guests never had good espresso and prefer milk drinks.

So yes, maybe I'm asking a lot from an espresso machine which probably rules out HXs and maybe E61s altogether. I don't know but I get the impression a Vivaldi would be perfect!

Another thing I really like about the regular one, is the rotary pump. I don't like the vibe pump in my current machine at all, it's too damn noisy! It's as if the machine is working really really hard to produce a shot, where a rotary pump gives the impression of being much more at ease producing espresso, much more relaxed

Of course in the cup the difference are small to none existent.

@ JohnB group head area picture: I think that should do it

definitely an improvement over my current situation!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:45 am

You can set the temp within 1*C & the machines sold in the U.S. by ChrisCoffee are tested with a Scace device before shipping so you know the offset is set correctly. I drink several single origin Espressos as well as a number of different blends so I'm always trying different temps. The small group boiler with an 800w heater makes it a breeze to change temps quickly.

I agree that the S1 is the way to go if you can run a water line in your kitchen. The rotary pump is nice but so is the programmable pre infusion. I really like that I can turn it off for certain coffees & use it when & how I chose.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:58 am

DaveM wrote:Black was the "safer" choice for us.

And for the record, plus I haven't yet figured out how to make a signature here, I also got a Bumper tamper, stand and knockbox, the progressive pre-infusion option, and a bottomless portafilter. I'm still getting the occasional side stream squirt with the nude PF but I'm learning... I think!

Dave

In the upper left of every page you will see a link called "User Control Panel". Click that and click then the Profile tab. You should be able to figure it out from there.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:07 pm

[quote="JohnB"]The Vivaldi was released in April 2005 according to the original H-B review. It does not have a PID & I wouldn't consider it a bargain but CC has done a good job of holding down the price compared to overpriced D/Bs like the Dalla Corte Mini & Vibi D/D.
/quote]

Actually Chris Coffee started selling the S1 Vivaldi in Dec 2003. I got mine on January 10, 2004 and put up a "poor man's" predecessor to this board shortly thereafter. This board has been up in this basic form since June 2004. I received one of the first S1 Vivaldi II's when Chris started to ship them in Nov. 2006.

These machines have a lot of parts in common with the commericial LaSpaz S3 which has been around for a while.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:48 pm

chas wrote:
Actually Chris Coffee started selling the S1 Vivaldi in Dec 2003. I got mine on January 10, 2004 and put up a "poor man's" predecessor to this board shortly thereafter. This board has been up in this basic form since June 2004. I received one of the first S1 Vivaldi II's when Chris started to ship them in Nov. 2006.

These machines have a lot of parts in common with the commericial LaSpaz S3 which has been around for a while.

I thought it was 2004, I wonder where H-B got the 4/05 date??

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:03 pm

i had several heat exchanger machines before i purchased my vivaldi. for a while, before i got the vivaldi, i thought i was making the real thing at home, but that obviously changed after i got the vivaldi and began following this forum.

i did as much research as i could before i purchased the machine; i wanted a rotary pump, temperature control and something without a water tank(i had none of these features previously). i also wanted a machine where you could set the size of a single or double shot, press a button and have consistency. the synesso would be cool, but hard to cope with in the current residential setting and even harder to justify for a cup or two a day. after my weekday machine stopped working (a dark ages salvatore), a little more than a year after i purchased my first vii for the weekend house, i purchased a second vii with the preinfusion feature. based on the other choices out there, i think the vii is great and, compared to the synesso and the gs3, a total bargain

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:18 pm

michael wrote:... a total bargain

Good

I think that the point of this machine is: it's almost without compromises. Full of professional features in a small, more or less affordable package, not bad looking and built to last. There's better stuff available, but not for this kind of money. And it'll be only a little better, not twice as good. But it will be twice as expensive.

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:17 am

Today I got two single origin shots from an Idrocompresso Mirage designed by Kees van der Westen.

If I don't buy a car, but an espresso machine instead, I could afford a Kees van der Westen machine and never want another for the rest of my life

Kees is going to sell these babies for about $7500 - $8500:

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:21 am

Very arty looking. I have to admit, if I bought one of these though, that sign would be off the machine before it was 5 minutes out of the box.

PBL · Post by **PBL** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:09 pm

The Idrocompresso Mirage is an awesome loooking espresso machine and from what i have read it is good as it is reputed to be. Prices are another concern. The Bad Ass is a serious looing machine as well, probably better suited to getting an entire hockey wired on caffiene before a game.

.

: Bad ass 1.jpg (71.71 KiB) Viewed 43279 times

The Vivaldi S1 is a serious home machine at a manageable price. It makes great coffee shot after shot. The espressos are consistent. It has two boilers and can generate serious milk even with the 110 v circuit. That keeps the lady happy with her double caps every day. It is plumbed in

Post by **Niko** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:08 am

I'm not a fan of the E61's so all the chrome in the world doesn't attract me. To me, they're big (overly) shiny metal boxes. I used to think the Synesso's were cool looking, now they're just kind of ugly to look at in the home unless you really have something nice to surround it with. I guess it all depends what surrounds a machine to me, the S1 kind of fits in anywhere. It has enough curves with some nice clean lines that won't distract.
Oh yeah, and it makes great coffee too

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:01 am

Yesterday I had a chance to work with a commercial machine (genuinely Italian looking, forgot the brand, but had La Marzocco portafilters). Two groups, one steam wand and a hot water tap, plumbed in, rotary pump. I now see the big advantage over commercial quality components over consumer stuff, it's great to be able to brew brew brew, steam, rinse filter with hot water, brew, backflush and dump the blind filter water in the tray. It is just without worries that you'll run out of water, or overflow the drip tray or whatever. Good fun. The owner of the restaurant however, didn't know he had to clean the filter holder itself. The actual filters were dirty enough as they were, but the filter holders were just coated in black tar. I cleaned all filter holders and filters with a steel pad, and the coffee tasted much better afterwards.

All in all a nice experience, working with a different kind of machine than I do on a daily basis.

Post by **Weska** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:07 pm

Not much talk appears about this, but I think one unsung advantage of the Vivaldi and other double boiler designs is the elimination of a pressurestat. I haven't ever owned or operated a heat exchanger machine, but the forum talk indicates that pressurestats are noisy, relatively unreliable with replacement needed ever year or three. Quite often upgrading the pressurestat becomes a priority for HX owners.

I think it's great to have a nice, simple thermostat in charge of my steam boiler.

Post by **coffeeowl** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:06 pm

Double boiler, excellent temperature stability, hot water tiger, wise boiler volumes and power, and the group design - in short, it works perfect for me, I have to really put effort to spoil the shot (though I'd like a better grinder then the mini I have, mainly because I run it per shot - hoperless)

Btw,
Niko, it's sooooooooooooooo gooooooooooooooooood to see you back!!!

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:18 pm

Pawel:

The same could be said for you. Isn't this your first post in six weeks? Welcome back, too!

Post by **Niko** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:14 pm

Yeah!
Welcome back, Pawel!

...like I should talk

Post by **coffeeowl** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:02 pm

Niko wrote:Yeah!
Welcome back, Pawel!

chas wrote:Pawel:
The same could be said for you. Isn't this your first post in six weeks? Welcome back, too!

Thanks...

specialy that... today is exactly one year of my Vivaldi happiness

Post by **Gabelstaplerfahrer** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:05 am

I was at a Dutch home barista meeting yesterday, and got to play a little bit with a double boiler, PID'd E61 machine. It was fun, the coffee good, but the fact that an empty water tank wasted my shot convinced me that plumbing in, whenever possible, is the only solution to worry-free espresso. Talked a bit about the Vivaldi and most agreed that it's value for money but not as good looking as some other machines out there. And that yes, Synessos are too expensive...

Post by **jmcphail** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:47 pm

A few factors with a common thread convinced me -

- double-boiler convenience
- plumb-in convenience
- temperature stability convenience

And the good advice of the members of this board :D

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:21 pm

Gabelstaplerfahrer wrote: Talked a bit about the Vivaldi and most agreed that it's value for money but not as good looking as some other machines out there. And that yes, Synessos are too expensive...

Matter of opinion as far as looks. Certainly better looking then the Dalla Corte with that ugly black cover on the front & much more distinctive then the generic looking SMB/E61DBs.

Post by **Niko** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:51 pm

I guess you can say that the Vivaldi is a thug in a business suit

Looks can be deceiving, especially when you'll be wearing the milk if you're not careful with the 1.2mm tip in a small pitcher.

Post by **shakin_jake** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:57 am

: 97876.jpg (25.74 KiB) Viewed 42529 times

Okay, what made me go for an E-61 and not a Vivaldi? <LOL> Trust me, I had been wanting an S1 for a while now. I started out with a single boiler Gaggia espresso machine about a year ago, and while it pulled nice shots since it was PID modded, I knew I was headed for a more powerful machine and the S1 (Vivaldi) was what I was after. But a friend talked me out of it and I wound up with a commercial HX machine that needed some work to get back on it's feet. That's my Rimini which I obtained in Jan of this year. I'm still waiting for a few parts to put her 'back together'

Anyways, awhile ago I sold my consumer Gaggia and bought a new Salvatore One Black HX machine. I have been on the waiting list for the Salvatore One Black since December and one day out of the blue (last Month), they called asking if I was still interested in buying this machine. Long story short, I've had it for awhile now and couldn't be any happier. It pulls beautiful shots and I'm quite satisfied

For those that don't know, this is a pour over machine, it uses a vibe pump which is not adjustable for group pressure yet Salvatore claims it's set up at 8 bars pressure at the group. I've yet to verify this claim as I have a liquid-filled pressure guage and brass fittings I could screw onto the PF (in place of the spouts) but the shots I'm pulling produce beautiful crema, so no interest to substantiate their claim

Anyways, just thought I'd throw this out here, what I'm currently pulling shots with. I have been following this thread since the beginning and thought I'd chime in with my E-61 machine

Jake
Reddick Fla.

Post by **oton** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:41 am

Sorry if I don't fully understand you, Jake. Are you saying that you pour better shots from your E61 machine than with the Vivaldi?

***

By the way. Speaking with an Spaziale Trainer, he told me that if you put 7 grams on a E61 machine and 7 grams on a Spaziale group, you get a more watery shot from E61 group due to the short basket deep. Of course, I can not verify this because I do not have an E61 machine.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:59 am

Jake - Did they say why they set the pressure to 8b instead of 9b like everyone else?

Post by **shakin_jake** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:34 pm

oton wrote:Sorry if I don't fully understand you, Jake. Are you saying that you pour better shots from your E61 machine than with the Vivaldi?

~~~~Oton, No, I don't have nor have i ever used a Spaz

***

By the way. Speaking with an Spaziale Trainer, he told me that if you put 7 grams on a E61 machine and 7 grams on a Spaziale group, you get a more watery shot from E61 group due to the short basket deep. Of course, I can not verify this because I do not have an E61 machine.

~~~I've yet to use a one shot basket. Most everywhere I've read, the one shot basket included w/most machines is a pod basket, so every one shot basket that has come into my possesion, gets placed in a drawer not to be used. I'm very fine with making double shots

Jake
Reddick Fla.

Post by **shakin_jake** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:42 pm

JohnB wrote:Jake - Did they say why they set the pressure to 8b instead of 9b like everyone else?

~~~The discussions I had with Salvatore Espresso was with Wendy Stephen. My concern back in November when I was emailing with her about the One Black was in regards to an adjustable OPV or lack thereof, that's when I found out Salvatore used a vibe pump with no way to adjust the group pressure. For awhile it was a deal breaker for me but when Wendy phoned me asking if I was still interested in purchasing a One Black, I thought I would give it a try and if I didn't care for the machine, I could always re-sell it at a later date. At this point I'm thoroughly impressed with their machine. Plenty of crema, I've let it sit idle for 2 hours and no need to do a cooling flush before pulling a shot. My shots are tasting very good. I'm a happy camper!

Jake
Reddick Fla.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:13 pm

shakin_jake wrote: I've yet to use a one shot basket. Most everywhere I've read, the one shot basket included w/most machines is a pod basket, so every one shot basket that has come into my possesion, gets placed in a drawer not to be used. I'm very fine with making double shots
Jake
Reddick Fla.

The singles basket is for making singles not PODS. They sell Pod adaptors for that. You should give them a try as they have their own special charm.

Post by **shakin_jake** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:44 pm

I'll take your word for it John but I'm sticking with doubles=:-)

Jake
Reddick Fla.