NoIsE

[fiddlefly]

Ok So...

My machine is loud. From the vids i've watched, it is as loud as the mini...
I am wondering...
Is something wrong?

[LJCoffeeGuy]

Fiddlefly,
My S1 is the original 2003/2004 model without the new/upgraded motor mounts. This could be part of the problem. I am about to order the upgraded mounts if I can't find some parts locally to make it happen.

As my unit was damaged in shipping, I've found that moving the panels around a bit and holding my hands here and there muffles the sound. This weekend or so I will be removing the panels and making sure they are seated correctly. I will also try and repair any missing pieces that may help.

Another thing - check your water line pressure and pump pressure and make sure your in a good range. 25psi for water line and 8.5 bar for pump pressure during shots. I purchased a water regulator with gauge from Chris Coffee and upgraded the pressure gauge to the dual gauge (steam and group pressure). This has made the machine more stable and a bit quieter.

Did your come with the non-swivel steam arm (3 hole)? I upgraded mine to a swivel S5 (adapter and arm) and the smaller 4 hole steam tip and have really enjoyed the machine.

[JohnB]

Ok So...

My machine is loud. From the vids i've watched, it is as loud as the mini...
I am wondering...
Is something wrong?

If you've got the good motor mounts make sure the capacitor mounted to the top of the motor isn't touching the frame rail in the front. Take off the front cover & look for anything loose. Motor bearings ok?

[fiddlefly]

I'll try to check those things out tomorrow... but do you have any other suggestions?

[JohnB]

I'll try to check those things out tomorrow... but do you have any other suggestions?

A little more info might help as "loud" doesn't tell us much. Does it all sound like pump noise? Buzzing? Rattling?

[chas]

If this is one of those early S1s with the original motor mounts, then loud is like those football games toys they had when I was a kid. That's the kind with a large, thin metal sheet that vibrated and causes the players to skitter across the surface. Then after replacing the motor mounts it was like, "is this thing on?"

The strange thing is that, if you look at the old motor mounts side by side with the new motor mounts, you'd never guess or figure out why it makes any difference at all. But it's night and day.

[oton]

arghh!! your avatar!!... my eyes hurts!!!

[chas]

My wallet hurts!

[JohnB]

My wallet hurts!

Good! For this transgression you deserve to suffer!! Have you received it yet?

[Endo]

Let me know your impression versus the S1 once you get it.

[fiddlefly]

I bet its not NoIsEe !

[chas]

It's coming tomorrow afternoon. Must be packed well. The GS is supposed to weigh 82lb but the shipping company says the box and pallet it sits on are 120lbs. I guess the pallet might account for 1/2 of that.

[sakurama]

I have the same issue with mine which is an older S1. I ordered the motor mounts this morning from Chris' and I'll have them put in tomorrow and I'll let you know how it works out. If you haven't already take off all the covers and listen to it and see if there's anything loose (capacitor) or touching (copper tube to chassis) that might vibrate when the pump is working. I touched and pressed on everything to try to find the source and couldn't find anything so motor mounts are the next step. For me it's my shot glass that vibrates around when the pump is running so I'm guessing the mounts will help. Let you tomorrow.

[sakurama]

Holy cow. The new motor mounts are about 4 or 5 times more quiet. It's hard to believe the difference it makes. Absolutely a must do upgrade.

[fiddlefly]

Holy... I am not too happy...
Something is really wrong!
I just brought the machine to my local dealer and it is shot... by that meaning that the insides of the pump and the motor are ruined by water leakage/ seepage... I often make mistakes but buying this machine used from an other country sure turned out to be a bad decision. I am now over the price of a new unit in spending with the added bonus of the hassles. (the repairs are goin to cost 750 can$)
I am surely thinking about writing the seller. I mean... this was sold as a machine in good working condition. Do you people think he could have known?
Plus, Ive been having the worst pours lately. Only channelling. Hopêfuly, this will resolve it!
Phew...

[JohnB]

Sorry to hear it but you could save a lot of money by just replacing the front bearing in the motor & buying a new pump. If you did it yourself the cost would be around $120 U.S. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=986
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=486

[Endo]

That's a bummer.

I've read this enough times here to think that some preventive maintenance warnings (inspecting and repacking bearing), should be added to the maintenance section of the Vivaldi manual.

I wonder how many other "ticking bearing bombs" are out there on older machines owned by people less mechanically inclined.

Any word from Chris or LaSpaziale that they are going to fix this leaky seal design flaw?

[JohnB]

Any word from Chris or LaSpaziale that they are going to fix this leaky seal design flaw?

The problem is in the FOT pump & not all do it. Removing the pump & packing waterproof grease around the motor bearing will prevent water damage if the seal goes. I also opened up the drain hole in the housing to a full 1/4" so any water leaking out of the pump will drain out under the machine.

[Endo]

The problem is in the FOT pump & not all do it.

Yes, it's a part from a supplier, but LaSpaziale is responsible for ensuring their suppliers can meet the expected quality. The frequency of leak related problems seems WAY too high IMO (am I wrong?). It's a shame retailers like Chris Coffee are the ones who often must demand the manufacturers change suppliers because of poor quality. Manufacturers like LaSpaziale should step up and take responsibility since THEY selected the supplier and it is THEIR name on the machine after all (owners don't buy pumps, they buy an espresso machine). These Italian companies not only use 1960's technology, they use 1960 quality assurance methods as well.

Removing the pump & packing waterproof grease around the motor bearing will prevent water damage if the seal goes. I also opened up the drain hole in the housing to a full 1/4" so any water leaking out of the pump will drain out under the machine.

All good ideas. But you are comfortable working on this machine. How many owners do you think are capable and willing to open up a $2000 Vivaldi they just bought? Besides the enthusiastic motorcyle mechanics and engineers on this forum? ....Not many I suspect.

I know if I had a new rotary pump Vivaldi (mine is a vibe pump so I'm lucky here), I'd take it apart after the first session, drill a drain hole and repack that bearing properly.

[BobG]

This is a response to Fiddlefly on could the owner have known that the pump/motor was faulty? The likely answer is no if they are like me. I have owned my S1 for almost 5 years now and have never had to do a really major servicing to the machine until just recently. I had noticed the noise level had increased when making shots.

When I looked through the other postings on this board, I saw that many ended up having to replace the pump and possibly the motor due to the leak so I took it into Pierre Espresso Repair since I live in the Seattle area. I have fixed a few minor problems, but after having fiddled with the side panels once when I got my machine, I had no desire to spend hours of my time fooling with it and disassembling it to check to see if the pump, motor or both were going bad. He showed me both my pump and motor and they were rusted like the other photos posted by people who did the repairs themselves.

[fiddlefly]

Hmm. I guess I could have saved the money but I do not know that I would have been able to diagnose properly the source of my problem (s) so, to the repairman it went!
Now, I just hope the last few weeks channelling messes I was pouring is going to dissappear!

[Endo]

Did you bring it to Cafe-Union in Montreal to be repaired? If so, let me know how it goes. (How long to wait, price, hammer marks , etc). I don't know how capable their technician is.

I doubt anything will go wrong with mine (it's new), but if it does, I'm pretty sure I'll do any work myself.

[fiddlefly]

Did you bring it to Cafe-Union in Montreal to be repaired? If so, let me know how it goes. (How long to wait, price, hammer marks , etc). I don't know how capable their technician is.

I doubt anything will go wrong with mine (it's new), but if it does, I'm pretty sure I'll do any work myself.

Yes... Cafe Union is where i took it. Service was great! in fact, I got it back today. It is now heating up for trial run. So far, it is pretty quiet ( alot more). There is no mishandling marks. 2 things though.
1- Never leave your pf there. (i think they love to lose them ). In fact i had my europiccola serviced there and it got back with the wrong pf. I told them that and they never aknowledged their mistake (they told me it did not fit because they changed the gasket! (whatever)).
2- I think it is a bit pricey on one count but on the other hand, my machine is now working and.... no hammer marks
They charged me the following prices:
Motor 315$
ByPass 275$
Manometre 65$
Labour 75$

So al in al, my wallet did not like it one bit but I am a happy camper

[fiddlefly]

No more (alotless) channelling! Whole new machine! better taste and workability!

[JohnB]

2- I think it is a bit pricey on one count but on the other hand, my machine is now working and.... no hammer marks
They charged me the following prices:
Motor 315$
ByPass 275$
Manometre 65$
Labour 75$

So al in al, my wallet did not like it one bit but I am a happy camper

What is a Bypass? Pump? What did the Manometre have to do with the failure? Prices seem normal except for the "bypass" if that is the pump it normally sells for $139.

[JohnB]

Yes, it's a part from a supplier, but LaSpaziale is responsible for ensuring their suppliers can meet the expected quality. The frequency of leak related problems seems WAY too high IMO (am I wrong?). It's a shame retailers like Chris Coffee are the ones who often must demand the manufacturers change suppliers because of poor quality. Manufacturers like LaSpaziale should step up and take responsibility since THEY selected the supplier and it is THEIR name on the machine after all (owners don't buy pumps, they buy an espresso machine). These Italian companies not only use 1960's technology, they use 1960 quality assurance methods as well.

The reality is we've only heard about 4-6 pump/motor failures out of several thousand machines sold in the U.S. Read through H-B & you will see other brands of pumps suffering the same failure/causing the same motor bearing damage. The pumps can be rebuilt professionally for half of current retail. When I replace mine with the new one CC sent me as a warranty replacement I'll either rebuild it myself if I can get parts or send it out. Since I waterproofed the motor bearing & the leak was minor I'm in no rush.

By removing the pump once a year to inspect for leakage which anyone with a screwdriver & the ability to use it can do you will avoid the motor bearing issue. Some of these machines we are seeing these failures on have been in daily use now for 4+ years so you shouldn't be shocked to see wear & tear take its toll.

[Endo]

The reality is we've only heard about 4-6 pump/motor failures out of several thousand machines sold in the U.S.

5 out of 2000 sold in 5 years is an annual failure rate of around 0.05%. If that is the case, that would seem perfectly acceptable. Still, something makes me think it's probably higher than that. Neither you or I can know for sure, but I would bet Chris Coffee would have a very good idea.

Read through H-B & you will see other brands of pumps suffering the same failure/causing the same motor bearing damage.

I'm sure it's related to the seal design, not the pump and definitely not the machine.

2- I think it is a bit pricey on one count but on the other hand, my machine is now working and.... no hammer marks
They charged me the following prices:
Motor 315$
ByPass 275$
Manometre 65$
Labour 75$

Part list seems strange. Sounds like they just swapped out the motor and pump. I would expect they would charge in the $500 range for that (about twice as much as doing it yourself). That's kind of typical from what I've seen them do on other machines.

I enjoy doing things myself, so I'll be handling any repairs on my machine (cross my fingers) .

[JohnB]

I'm sure it's related to the seal design, not the pump and definitely not the machine.

The seal is inside the pump as is the impeller, ect.

[Endo]

The seal is inside the pump as is the impeller, ect.

Yes. I believe it's a positive displacment pump or vane pump (I don't like calling it an impeller). The internal seals have elastomer components. Often made of synthetic rubber such as Nitrile (NBR) or Viton. The Nitrile rubber doesn't like ozone (sparking electic motors). The Viton degrades with weak organic acids. The quality of Viton seals varies greatly depending on supplier, which might explain some of the leaks.

Is the bearing part of the FOT pump?

[JohnB]

The seal is inside the pump as is the impeller, ect.

Yes. I believe it's a positive displacment pump or vane pump (I don't like calling it an impeller). The internal seals have elastomer components. Often made of synthetic rubber such as Nitrile (NBR) or Viton. The Nitrile rubber doesn't like ozone (sparking electic motors). The Viton degrades with weak organic acids. The quality of Viton seals varies greatly depending on supplier, which might explain some of the leaks.

Is the bearing part of the FOT pump?

Heck of a lot of guess work there for someone who has never had one apart! It's a brushless capacitor start motor so no sparking (we hope) to pollute the ozone. The bearing that gets corroded is in the front of the motor facing the housing where the motor shaft connects to the pump. (see pics in repair threads).

Here is some factual info on the shaft seal from the FOT website: "The PO and PA series have mechanical shaft seals of carbon graphite and aluminum oxide or silicon carbide." More info here: http://www.fluid-o-tech.com/crossreference.html The S1 uses the FOT PA series pump.

[Endo]

I don't have one so I have to guess. So you are saying the leak comes from the mechanical shaft seal and not the compression seals?

[bgour]

So after reading all this I decided I had to check mine. My machine is 3.5 years old but I've only had it for a few months. There was no indication of an problems but it seemed easy enough to check.

Sure enough - plenty of leakage! A bit of luck: the corrosion made it's way to the motor bearing but just barely, and critically, missed the gap in the bearing's face by a mm. The motor turns great and doesn't make a hint of noise. Conclusion - the bearing is fine.

I cleaned it up and hogged out the drain hole to 1/4". Word of advice if you decide to expand this drain hole - keep the metal fragments from getting all over the place. I wasn't that careful and spent a fair bit of time hunting for stray bits.

The pump seems fine but fact is it's leaking, slowly, and I'll need to replace it very soon. Drain hole and grease should keep things okay until I can get a new pump.

Speaking of grease - any advice about what I should use? I think that's a graphite bearing and doubt it wants any grease getting in there.

[Endo]

I would suggest going to the local bike store and getting a tube of "water-proof" grease used for bicycle bottom brackets. All bike shops stock it.

[JohnB]

The grease doesn't go on the pump face/bearing it is used to coat the exposed portion of the motor bearing so water can't get in. The motor bearing is a standard sealed ball bearing type. Any waterproof grease will do the job just be sure to leave the drain hole clear. I smeared a light coat around the inside of the cast housing to prevent corrosion.

[bgour]

Thanks, grease on the motor bearing is definitely what I had in mind (not the pump). Not sure why I thought it was a graphite bearing but you're right it's ball bearing and some grease on it will be just fine. I took Endo's suggestion and used some water-proof bicycle grease.

Something I hadn't noticed until I looked at the photos was the tell-tale drip marks on the chassis. If anyone is timid about removing their pump for a proper look, you should at least check for these stains.

[JohnB]

Quite often the corrosion clogs up the drip hole so you never see that tell tale drip trail on the chassis until its too late if at all. This is why I coated the inside of the casting(lightly) & opened up the drip hole to hopefully prevent the ugly corrosion.

[bgour]

In my case it dripped for some time before clogging up the drain hole with corrosion. In some cases it might clog before having much chance to leave a drip mark so lack of drip marks aren't a guaranty that the pump seal isn't leaking.

YMMV but if you see drip marks, you have a leak.