uneven extraction

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:11 pm

I'm using a Mazzer grinder with Black Cat Beans......I've gone through nearly 1.5 lbs trying to "dial in" the grind.....It seems that I am nearly always getting a quick blonde channeling in nearly the exact same spot......the right side third of the naked portifilter close to the handle.

I've tried different methods of distribution and tamping....but it always seems to over extract from that corner???

I'm using an espro tamper that clicks.....so I am assuming the 30 lbs is consistant.....I've also had the pre-infusion chamber installed....

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:07 pm

On my M4 (zero point 1.5) I grind B/C with the 3 dead center on the worm drive housing + or - a tooth or two depending on age/pre infusion/dose. What dose are you using, how long since the beans were roasted? Where is your zero point on the grinder?

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:25 pm

I'm guessing that the zero point is where they put the factory sticker arrow?.....if so I am 3 notches to the right with the setting.....the beans were received 5 days ago from UPS....I'm assuming they are good

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:45 pm

You set the zero point by turning the adjustment finer until your burrs touch lightly & then back off just enough to stop the ticking sound. Your typical espresso grinding range will be between 1-1.5 numbers coaser then this setting on the M4. This should be the first thing you determine when you set up your grinder.

Post by **jmcphail** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:03 am

I had a similar problem a while ago, and discovered that I was tamping unevenly. At first it was actually visible - the top of the puck wasn't level and actually tilted from one side of the basket to the other. I now check the way the tamper sits in the basket on top of the coffee, just feeling the edge of the tamper and the basket with my fingertips to see if it is even all around.

Once I consistently produced a level puck I kept working on even distribution and tamping and finally solved it completely by keeping my forearm vertical and the tamper gripped correctly so that the downward force during packing was directed straight down through the center of the tamper.

I don't know if that is what you are experiencing, but the symptoms I experienced sound the same as what you describe.

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:35 pm

I just went through two pounds of Black Cat without ever getting a decent pull. As I am all out of beans, I'll go to the roaster in Vernon.....Kevin's Coffe....tomorrow and try again. I never "zeroed" out my grinder as John had suggested....I'll do this before the next batch.....

I'm trying super hard to tamp evenly and consistantly....I wish there was a class I could take somewhere for a hands on lesson.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:52 am

The Black Cat needs to age for 8-10 days before it hits its prime. What size dose were you using?

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:47 am

I was using a naked double portifilter......I'ld fill it up overflowing and wiggle a wooden skewer through it.....scrape off the excess grounds over the top with the skewer and then tamp....

If theBblack Cat beans were roasted the day after I ordered them......then I was right in the middle of that 8-10 day window.....

This morning with the very last 2 shots....I tried tamping with my left hand instead of my right.......it was maybe slightly better

Post by **jmcphail** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:08 pm

Are you seeing any actual channels or pinholes in the puck after a too-fast pour?

michael · Post by **michael** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:48 am

i dont think you are ever going to get good shots from the black cat

are you using a mini mazzer e; if so, how do you have it set?

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:41 pm

I haven't been checking the pucks.........I will endeavor to do so...

Hmmmm.....if you don't think I'll have much luck with the Black Cat I would love a new suggestion. I just purchased a couple pounds of beans from a local roaster. The owner doesn't seem to be very enthusiastic about providing information on his espresso beans. He couldn't tell me what type of bean it was or exactly when it was roasted. He did have a very large beautiful roaster set up in the store. You can tell that he uses it frequently, but he seems to specialize in "flavored" coffee......ie blueberry cobbler, german black forest cake, rasberry fudge. He has an espresso machine but it has been "broken" for the last ten years. He charges $9.99 per lb. I have found the extractions to be dark and a bit watery......but work they well enough for my daughters milk drinks....

I....however.....am in pursuit of greater glory.....and shall not rest until the beans beg for mercy from my godlike ability to extract the perfect shot of espresso.

Suggestion welcome.........

michael · Post by **michael** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:19 pm

try ecco caffe; i had great success with the daterra reserve and the screen dried yellow burbon

you can mix them together and end up with the beans used in cafe grumpy in new york; really good stuff

Post by **jmcphail** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:05 pm

I'm a big fan of PT's La Bella Vita if you want to branch out. Based on a little reading here I also recently tried Terroir Coffee's Konga Coop, it is really nice, too.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:42 am

I find Intelli's Kid-O more difficult to get decent pours from then the Black Cat. If the B/C is well aged I usually have good luck but I'm still not impressed with the current blend. It does benefit from a large dose (17-18g) & long, slow pours (35-40 sec/1.5 oz).

Toscano from Counter Culture, La Bella Vita from Pt's Coffee, Konga Co-Op & Daterra Calabria from Terroir are worth a try.
http://www.atomicafe.com/index.html is close by & has a good rep although I haven't tried their Espressos yet.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:05 pm

I just ordered a 2lb bag of the Daterra Farm Reserve Espresso from Atomic for a gathering I'm hosting this weekend. I'll let you know what I think of it. They have some good deals on 2 & 5 lb bags in their "bulk coffee" section.

Post by **woodchuck** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:20 pm

Jack Rabbit, just saw your post. Sorry for the late reply. I have had pretty good success with BC these days. The latest batches have been very good - much better than earlier in the year. I pull BC at 93C and 16gr. As has already been suggested your issues could be channeling due to an uneven tamp. You could also be packing too much coffee. If you can get a hold of a scale you will be amazed at what a gram or two either way can to a dose. Last suggestion is to try a different tamper. Not sure whether your Espro is a flat base or convex base. I have had better luck with the convex base with the VII. I know the tamper shouldn't make that much of a difference but I can definitely see the difference in my pulls. Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ian

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:01 pm

Ok guys........thanks a bunch for all the ideas.....

I just ordered a pound of the Daterra Reserve and Dried Yellow Bourbon from Ecco Cafe....$43.50......Yikes!

I also ordered a Proscale XC2000 and a set of calibration weights from Old Will Knot Scales.........$85.50.....Double Yikes!!

It sounds like alot of money.....but $130 would only last me roughly 40 minutes down at our local strip club....

and Ian ......my Espro tamper does have a convex base......

Hopefully all will arrive before the weekend.....I can't wait.....!!

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:28 am

Jack Rabbit Slim wrote:Ok guys........thanks a bunch for all the ideas.....

I just ordered a pound of the Daterra Reserve and Dried Yellow Bourbon from Ecco Cafe....$43.50......Yikes!

I also ordered a Proscale XC2000 and a set of calibration weights from Old Will Knot Scales.........$85.50.....Double Yikes!!

Hopefully all will arrive before the weekend.....I can't wait.....!!

I don't know how they compare but the Daterra Farm Reserve I bought from Atomic was $23 for a 2lb bag. It was just starting to hit its prime(day 5) when I opened it yesterday but I would put it up there with the better Espressos I've tried. (Toscano, Black Cat, ect) I fully expect it to get better in the days to come.

To get the best deals from Old Will you need to buy from his Ebay store. Just about any scale you see at his regular website will be half as much at his Ebay shop. I use a Proscale 600 that I bought for $25 from his website but later found it for $10-$12 in his Ebay store + it included the weights & pads.

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:31 pm

Finished up the Yellow Bourbon on Saturday........pretty good results

Started in on the Daterra Reserve on Sunday afternoon.......pretty good results as well

Was having much better luck with these two than with the Black Cat. The shots do seem a bit watery though....not thick and gooey as I had hoped. I have been using my new scale and have found that the volume dosing method I was using was yielding roughly 17 grams +/- .75 grams.

I REALLY liked the Yellow Bourbon.....think I'm gonna try getting a couple pounds this time and work with it more. The trouble is that a pound lasts roughly a day and a half.....it's getting a bit pricy.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:26 pm

If your shots are watery try tightening up the grind.

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:11 am

Slightly tightening the grind helped a bit .........

........I'm only getting aboout a 1 1/4 oz shot before the real light blonding sets in.....Is this normal?

17.5 grams 94 C Daterra Reserve

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:39 pm

Jack Rabbit Slim wrote:Slightly tightening the grind helped a bit ......... ........I'm only getting aboout a 1 1/4 oz shot before the real light blonding sets in.....Is this normal?

17.5 grams 94 C Daterra Reserve

Using the same dose & temp with the Atomic Cafe Daterra I'm usually seeing blonding around 35sec or more. Slow start with a mild choke sometimes but a very tasty 1.5oz+ shot. I get a nice almond/chocolate flavor from the shots? What is the Ecco Daterra like? If the shot tastes good don't worry about the volume. How many seconds into the pull before you see the blonding with the tighter grind?

Post by **Jack Rabbit Slim** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:40 pm

16.7 grams
94 degrees C

0 seconds push the button
7 seconds first signs of extraction emerging (pre-infusion upgrade installed)

extraction does seem to become mildly choked....starts out very dark and then becomes blonde....not alot of striping in between

20 seconds extraction combines to one stream in center
24 seconds quickly becoming a solid light tan
35 seconds shot stopped

yield.....just under 1.5 ounces

shot tastes good.......I don't have the skills to properly cup and describe it.......yet!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:51 pm

The offer is still open anytime you want to take a ride over to D'burg & compare shots. Shoot me a PM if you're interested & I'll send contact info.

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:54 pm

with the daterra reserve i use 16.5gs. i think the people at ecco caffe recommend 95 degrees. for me, it comes out very dark, without any early blonding; im getting closer to the 25 - 30 second pour, not counting 6 seconds of preinfusion. do you think the grind you are using is too fine? i have had great success with the ecco caffe coffees, btw

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:33 am

It's finally my 3 day weekend in NYC. I'll be at Cafe Grumpy in the morning!

michael · Post by **michael** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:36 am

make sure you also check out kaffe at 275 greenwich in tribeca, best black cat

Post by **JohnB** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:23 pm

chas wrote:It's finally my 3 day weekend in NYC. I'll be at Cafe Grumpy in the morning!

We want pics!!

Post by **oton** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:40 pm

JohnB wrote:
chas wrote:It's finally my 3 day weekend in NYC. I'll be at Cafe Grumpy in the morning!
We want pics!!

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:08 pm

No pics, just my story.

I give Kaffe 1668 5 stars and Cafe Grumpy 3 stars. Kaffe 1668 coffee was excellent. I tried an espresso, a macchiato, and a cap (on two different days!) All were excellent with good latte art. Kaffe 1668 was on par with my GS3 shots. I've recently had some shots with the GS3 that go way beyond Kaffe 1668 but I attribute that to a fantastic batch of Yirchacheffe I obtained recently from the Green Coffee Buying Club.

I also really liked the shop itself. I was a nice large room with more space in the basement. Cafe Grumpy was a long skinny room lacking in ambience. Worse, the coffee was really off. It tasted sour like they had the temp too low or were using a coffee that I just didn't care for. I watched the barista's technique and it seemed fine. Both shops used identical Synesso 3 group machines.

My wife's analysis was that Kaffe 1668 espresso tasted like that from my GS/3 and the Cafe Grumpy coffee tasted like espresso from the S1.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:25 pm

chas wrote:
My wife's analysis was that Kaffe 1668 espresso tasted like that from my GS/3 and the Cafe Grumpy coffee tasted like espresso from the S1.

Nice! I assume that was from the S1 WHEN you had the offset WAY off??

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:01 pm

But of course!

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:37 am

i think kaffe has the best coffee in ny; to say that the coffee from kaffe taste like what you get from the GS/3 is quite the endorsement for the GS/3; while i do get shots on the S1 that are just like kaffe, that is not always the case; could be time to think about trading up

Post by **JohnB** » Tue May 05, 2009 6:22 pm

michael wrote:i think kaffe has the best coffee in ny; to say that the coffee from kaffe taste like what you get from the GS/3 is quite the endorsement for the GS/3; while i do get shots on the S1 that are just like kaffe, that is not always the case; could be time to think about trading up

Could be the grinder if your shots aren't consistent. What are you using? I just picked up a Major today so my espresso Sj will be looking for a new home.

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:59 am

i have a mazzer mini e; my shots are consistent and very good (crema, taste, mouthfeel etc.), but generally not quite as good as the coffee i get at kaffe

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:59 am

michael wrote:i have a mazzer mini e; my shots are consistent and very good (crema, taste, mouthfeel etc.), but generally not quite as good as the coffee i get at kaffe

Ok, this:"while i do get shots on the S1 that are just like kaffe, that is not always the case" sounded like your shots were inconsistent. Still I'd invest in a much better grinder before dropping the $$ on a GS3 but thats just me. Who knows, had Chas sorted his S1 sooner he might still be a happy owner & not have to hold onto the vibrating cup while wearing earplugs when he pulls shots.

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 am

i thought the mini e was a good grinder, no?

when i purchased the mazzer, i wanted something doserless since im a 1 maybe 2 coffee guy in the morning and thats it, so i didnt want to have all that coffee in the doser;

is the major you purchased a doser or the new doserless model

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Of course everyone here is very enthusiastic S1 owner (including myself), but you're kidding yourself if you think it can compare to a professional 3 group LM or Synesso or even a GS/3 for that matter.

If you want proof, just go to Kaffe and ask them to grind two shots. Drink one and get them to pour the grinds for the second into a baggie. Run home and pull it on your S1 and compare. The shot time might be a bit off, but you'll still get a good idea of the taste difference with the grinder removed from the equation.

If you can convince them to let you prepare the shot as well, you can eliminate the "mano" factor as well.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Endo wrote:Of course everyone here is very enthusiastic S1 owner (including myself), but you're kidding yourself if you think it can compare to a professional 3 group LM or Synesso or even a GS/3 for that matter.

Ah, back from the dead?? You've been so quiet I figured you electrocuted yourself doing the 20A cord swap.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:57 pm

JohnB wrote: Ah, back from the dead?? You've been so quiet I figured you electrocuted yourself doing the 20A cord swap.

Just away doing some kite-surfing on the Outer Banks.

I would have stayed longer if they had an espresso machine. The Aeropress just wasn't cutting it.

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:03 pm

chas wrote:No pics, just my story.

I give Kaffe 1668 5 stars and Cafe Grumpy 3 stars. Kaffe 1668 coffee was excellent. I tried an espresso, a macchiato, and a cap (on two different days!) All were excellent with good latte art. Kaffe 1668 was on par with my GS3 shots. I've recently had some shots with the GS3 that go way beyond Kaffe 1668 but I attribute that to a fantastic batch of Yirchacheffe I obtained recently from the Green Coffee Buying Club.

I also really liked the shop itself. I was a nice large room with more space in the basement. Cafe Grumpy was a long skinny room lacking in ambience. Worse, the coffee was really off. It tasted sour like they had the temp too low or were using a coffee that I just didn't care for. I watched the barista's technique and it seemed fine. Both shops used identical Synesso 3 group machines.

My wife's analysis was that Kaffe 1668 espresso tasted like that from my GS/3 and the Cafe Grumpy coffee tasted like espresso from the S1.

just came back from kaffe

chas, if i was sure i could duplicate the taste kaffe gets from black cat with the GS/3, i would break down and purchase the new machine

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:01 pm

michael wrote: just came back from kaffe

chas, if i was sure i could duplicate the taste kaffe gets from black cat with the GS/3, i would break down and purchase the new machine

And what was Kaffe using to grind their beans? Most cafes are using huge doses with blends designed for same. The LMs excel in that range & if you are a big fan of comfort food espresso go for it but you should consider a major step up in your grinder first. Then if you think you still need a GS3 to make great espresso at least you will have a comparable grinder.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:08 pm

michael wrote:
chas, if i was sure i could duplicate the taste kaffe gets from black cat with the GS/3, i would break down and purchase the new machine

Right....until they come out with the new and improved GS/4. Don't do it man. This road only ends in divorce.

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:11 pm

the grinder is a mazzer major electronic; the beans are black cat

i thought the mazzer mini e was a good grinder with adequate sized burrs; if not that, what do you recommend

whats comforts food espresso; i sense its a pejorative

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 06, 2009 4:00 pm

michael wrote:the grinder is a mazzer major electronic; the beans are black cat

i thought the mazzer mini e was a good grinder with adequate sized burrs; if not that, what do you recommend

whats comforts food espresso; i sense its a pejorative

The Mini E is a decent but over priced grinder. There are much better options depending on your wallet. If I was buying new right now my favorite would be the K10WBC http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... ompak10wbc Check out the K10 thread on H-B for more info. Having just bought two Majors I'm set for awhile but then I said the same thing last fall when I bought two SJs.

Post by **Endo** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:03 pm

I love the K10 WBC too.

Still, it would be a hard decision since for the same price as the K10 you can get the Anfim Super Caimano. This seems to be the grinder of choice at the high end shops around here (I prefer it over the brighter tasting conicals). They are steal at $1350 US in Canada (they go for $1795 in the US).

http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/storeGrinders.html

Then there's the Vario, which has been comparing very well taste wise to both these grinders (according to many pros) and costs only $429.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:49 pm

Endo wrote:I love the K10 WBC too.

Still, it would be a hard decision since for the same price as the K10 you can get the Anfim Super Caimano. This seems to be the grinder of choice at the high end shops around here (I prefer it over the brighter tasting conicals). They are steal at $1350 US in Canada (they go for $1795 in the US).

http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/storeGrinders.html

Then there's the Vario, which has been comparing very well taste wise to both these grinders (according to many pros) and costs only $429.

I've heard Mark talk about the ASC on CG but haven't seen much info on it. Seems like a lot of money for a 75mm flat burr grinder even if they are titanium.

Post by **artichoke** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:55 am

Does anyone have an idea of manufacturing cost for grinders, and/or espresso machines? Given what I know about the parts and complexity, the margins seem to be very high on high-dollar grinders. They are quite simple. The doser is more complicated than the grinder, but one doesn't pay much for a doser.

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:46 pm

artichoke wrote:Does anyone have an idea of manufacturing cost for grinders, and/or espresso machines? Given what I know about the parts and complexity, the margins seem to be very high on high-dollar grinders. They are quite simple. The doser is more complicated than the grinder, but one doesn't pay much for a doser.

I concur that it seems obscene, but I guess so long as we're willing to pay it will continue. I am also shocked by Mazzer's price delta between their standard doser machines and the electronic doserless machines. I have one and I like it but if I didn't get a spectacular discount, I'd definitely have a different grinder.