Consistency

Post by **Bud** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:36 am

Thanks again Chas for your work, it will help out many of us Spaz owners with the upgrade.

Preinfusion is a very exciting upgrade (progressive or passive). I

Post by **Cliff** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:36 am

I am with you 100%. I will start doing video of my shots before I get the solution and then after. I am very excited about this upgrade.

Post by **Richard** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:03 am

[quote="Bud"]I

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:31 am

Chas - Have you been able to determine at what pressure the programmable pre infusion operates?

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:32 pm

During the programmed interval before the pump kicks in the pressure is whatever your input water pressure is to the machine. After that it's the pressure you've set you pump to. Chris recommends you use a pressure regulator and pressure gauge before the machine to set the pressure between 20-25PSI.

A lot of folks have already installed this device and set it in this pressure range as a way to reduce or eliminate dripping from the expansion valve. For those that don't you should order these items from Chris either in advance or at the same time you send in your controller board for reprogramming.

Chris is recommending 2-3s for preinfusion. That makes me wonder if, in hindsight, the 8 programmable increments should have been in 1/2sec intervals from 0-4s.

Post by **Weska** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:55 pm

Joining the majority, I expect better consistency rather than any other change. Still, you never know until you've tried...and fiddled..and experimented...

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:08 pm

chas wrote:During the programmed interval before the pump kicks in the pressure is whatever your input water pressure is to the machine. After that it's the pressure you've set you pump to. Chris recommends you use a pressure regulator and pressure gauge before the machine to set the pressure between 20-25PSI.

So that would be less then two bar. In the H-B thread that Richard posted the link to above they felt 3 bar was a minimum for full saturation of the puck. Of course this was on an HX machine with an E61 grouphead. I'm looking forward to reading Dan Kehn's comments on H-B after he tests the modded S1V2 that Chris sent him & hearing what Chas has to say after playing with it for a few days.

Post by **Richard** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:52 pm

JohnB wrote:In the H-B thread that Richard posted the link to above they felt 3 bar was a minimum for full saturation of the puck. Of course this was on an HX machine with an E61 grouphead.

No, no. That was a Cimbali, which is a completely different group than an E61. The only similarity is that the baskets are the same diamater.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:29 am

Richard wrote:
JohnB wrote:In the H-B thread that Richard posted the link to above they felt 3 bar was a minimum for full saturation of the puck. Of course this was on an HX machine with an E61 grouphead.
No, no. That was a Cimbali, which is a completely different group than an E61. The only similarity is that the baskets are the same diamater.

My mistake, although after reading the full article they did compare the pre infusion on the Junior to an E61. I guess I'm used to seeing E61s on all the SMB machines.

Still I'm curious how far the water will penetrate into the puck in 2-3 seconds at only 20-25psi. Should be easy enough to determine by stopping the shot before the pump kicks in & inspecting the puck. Chas???

Post by **woodchuck** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:55 pm

I had a chance to do a little testing of preinfusion today. I posted the results over at HB.
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/la-s ... t7296.html

Cheers

Ian

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:26 pm

How does the pre infusion affect the warm up flush? Seems like it will drag it out. I don't suppose its possible to have p/i activated by the singles button but not by the double??

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:28 pm

JohnB wrote:I don't suppose its possible to have p/i activated by the singles button but not by the double??

It's theoretically possible no doubt, but that's not how it works in this software version.

Post by **jmcphail** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:42 am

If what is happening during the pre-infusion is that the intake valve is opening to allow line pressure to push water through to the group head, I wonder if it is possible to wire the intake valve somehow with a momentary switch and its own button for manual control.

I also wonder if a pre-programmed pre-infusion that is right for your bean, grind and tamp for a double would be too long for a single of the same type, or if other variables change?

JohnB wrote:How does the pre infusion affect the warm up flush? Seems like it will drag it out. I don't suppose its possible to have p/i activated by the singles button but not by the double??

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:04 am

jmcphail wrote:If what is happening during the pre-infusion is that the intake valve is opening to allow line pressure to push water through to the group head, I wonder if it is possible to wire the intake valve somehow with a momentary switch and its own button for manual control.

This is what Chris Coffee did to check the viability of the option before asking LaSpaziale to provide it as a programmable solution. CC would probably refer to this as the "Warranty Voiding Option".

jmcphail wrote:I also wonder if a pre-programmed preinfusion that is right for your bean, grind and tamp for a double would be too long for a single of the same type, or if other variables change

Not sure but you can change the preinfusion time in about 5 seconds.

Post by **jmcphail** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:33 pm

I wonder what made CC choose programmable versus manual pre-infusion? I'm not knocking the programmable option, it will work for me for 99.99% of the shots I pull, and it sounds easy to reprogram. And I think it will improve my shots, give flexibility, etc. It's a great feature, I plan on doing the upgrade.

But the way it is implemented it may cause a usability problem for me -

Like someone else that already mentioned it, I use the group to wash the portafilter and basket after a shot and do the "wiggle", I like that it tends to flush out the disc and screens as well as was the basket, plus it is one more thing to bring the group head up to temp. I haven't tried using the boiler faucet for this yet, but I will. I'm concerned about the safety of doing this though.

For backflushing and cleaning, it should be easy enough to reprogram it to 0 seconds, but reprogramming it to flush after each shot sounds tedious. I've heard some mention that they backflush with plain water every 1-2 shots pulled, so it might be more of a problem than I think.

These potential problems would disappear if it were implemented with a manual mode I think, but there could be other problems instead.

A really nice thing about making it a programmable option versus a button or manual feature is that it makes use of the existing button panel and avoids the appearance problem that the timer has. It's going to be slick.

I'm looking forward to continuing commentary and usage reviews of the new features, thanks for posting them!

chas wrote:
jmcphail wrote:If what is happening during the pre-infusion is that the intake valve is opening to allow line pressure to push water through to the group head, I wonder if it is possible to wire the intake valve somehow with a momentary switch and its own button for manual control.
This is what Chris Coffee did to check the viability of the option before asking LaSpaziale to provide it as a programmable solution. CC would probably refer to this as the "Warranty Voiding Option".

jmcphail wrote:I also wonder if a pre-programmed preinfusion that is right for your bean, grind and tamp for a double would be too long for a single of the same type, or if other variables change
Not sure but you can change the preinfusion time in about 5 seconds.

Post by **woodchuck** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:41 pm

Posted an update with some puck pics on the HB thread. Definitely think the preinfusion has some merit. Also had a chance to try Counter Culture's Misty Valley espresso that Tim has been experimenting with - ouch! It is good!

Cheers

Ian

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/la-s ... tml#p85921

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:05 pm

Nice pics! So it would seem that it isn't necessary to completely wet the puck or even beneficial in some cases in order to reap the benefits of P/I??? I'm hoping that is the case as I doubt I could get the 45 psi line pressure necessary to force the water completely through the puck.

Post by **coffeeowl** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:52 pm

As for the warmup flush, probably we'll have to make it longer, for the water will get into the tube contrary for example to an e61, correct?
The rest - portafilter wiggle, backflu etc. - it will be just as on any other machine with preinfusion (I mean the gradual mechanical).

Post by **Bud** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:35 am

woodchuck wrote:Posted an update with some puck pics on the HB thread. Definitely think the preinfusion has some merit. Also had a chance to try Counter Culture's Misty Valley espresso that Tim has been experimenting with - ouch! It is good!

Cheers

Ian

Ian,

Excellent experiment; the photos really say a lot, Very interesting.

When you say

Post by **woodchuck** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:24 am

Bud, the advantage I see so far is a little brighter shot which tends to bring out a bit more of the fruitiness in the cup. Also I have noticed that my shots start the cone more evenly. I sometimes get a camel back on the start of my shots (two cones collapsing to one) but I haven't seen as much of this with the preinfusion.I haven't focused too much on clarity yet. I'll pay a bit more attention to that next series.

Cheers

Ian

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:40 am

coffeeowl wrote:As for the warmup flush, probably we'll have to make it longer, for the water will get into the tube contrary for example to an e61, correct?
The rest - portafilter wiggle, backflu etc. - it will be just as on any other machine with preinfusion (I mean the gradual mechanical).

You will probably have to readjust the volumetric dosing on the progressive preinjusion device since some of the water goes into the cylinder and never gets into the cup. However, all the water flow is getting measured by the flowmeter.

Post by **Bud** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:12 am

JohnB wrote:Nice pics! So it would seem that it isn't necessary to completely wet the puck or even beneficial in some cases in order to reap the benefits of P/I??? I'm hoping that is the case as I doubt I could get the 45 psi line pressure necessary to force the water completely through the puck.

Yes I

Post by **Bud** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:26 am

woodchuck wrote:Bud, the advantage I see so far is a little brighter shot which tends to bring out a bit more of the fruitiness in the cup. Also I have noticed that my shots start the cone more evenly. I sometimes get a camel back on the start of my shots (two cones collapsing to one) but I haven't seen as much of this with the preinfusion.I haven't focused too much on clarity yet. I'll pay a bit more attention to that next series.

Cheers

Ian

I

Post by **woodchuck** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:16 pm

Bud, a few more from today. As suggested by Niko I tried letting it preinfuse until it beaded. Not good. Can't seem to drag it out too long before the shot falls apart. The taste may be just in my head. That's the trouble when you do these things by yourself. Anyways it is after all, all in the taste :-)

Cheers

Ian

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/la-s ... t7296.html

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:12 pm

Its nice to see you are getting less channeling/improved pours even with the line pressure in the 25-35 psi range. I would think that if you are seeing those improvements you would have to be seeing an improvement in taste over less then perfect pours. If the p/i brings out different flavors that would be an added bonus.

Post by **Cliff** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:38 pm

I don't think it is in your head. My wife and I both are tasting different flavors.

Post by **coffeeowl** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:46 pm

chas wrote:
coffeeowl wrote:As for the warmup flush, probably we'll have to make it longer, for the water will get into the tube contrary for example to an e61, correct?
The rest - portafilter wiggle, backflu etc. - it will be just as on any other machine with preinfusion (I mean the gradual mechanical).
You will probably have to readjust the volumetric dosing on the progressive preinjusion device since some of the water goes into the cylinder and never gets into the cup. However, all the water flow is getting measured by the flowmeter.

yes

anyway, is there any info available on the gradual preinfusion parameters? specially the time: how many seconds to full pressure?

EdiT:
Oops, I read in the preinfusion-for-mini section that it's about 6 seconds (thanks for the vids).
Well - to see is to believe - only I hope that some kind of guides etc. will be available for those happy ones, who did not stripe their machines yet :D

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:55 pm

Coming soon. I'm almost finished.

Post by **boldstep** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:11 am

During the programmed interval before the pump kicks in the pressure is whatever your input water pressure is to the machine. After that it's the pressure you've set you pump to. Chris recommends you use a pressure regulator and pressure gauge before the machine to set the pressure between 20-25PSI.

Dumb question: How do I check what the input water pressure of my machine is? If I look at the front gauge, the left side shows 6.5 bar when just sitting there idle (with the machine on)... is that the input water pressure?

Aside from the proper pre-infusion input water pressure, I also have drippage and was wondering if a regulator would help with that.

Post by **Richard** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:59 am

boldstep wrote:
Chris recommends you use a pressure regulator and pressure gauge before the machine to set the pressure between 20-25PSI.
Dumb question: How do I check what the input water pressure of my machine is? If I look at the front gauge, the left side shows 6.5 bar when just sitting there idle (with the machine on)... is that the input water pressure?

Aside from the proper pre-infusion input water pressure, I also have drippage and was wondering if a regulator would help with that.

You don't say what machine you have. Assuming that it's plumbed in, yes, the pressure gauge at idle indicates incoming line pressure. However, that's not an accurate way to set the line pressure; there needs to be a more accurate pressure gauge in the water line feeding the machine.

IMPORTANT: Note first the recommend pressure of 20-25psi. Now note that 6.5 bar is roughly 94psi. You need to get a regulator on that machine ASAP.

Post by **boldstep** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:24 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. It is a v2 and it is plumbed in. Sounds like I need a pressure regulator!

I'll get one put on... but what do people use to set the input water pressure after the regulator. Do they put something inline permanently or is there some device which can be screwed on to the end of the braided flex hose (i.e. the input of the vivaldi) just for calibration purposes?

Thanks!

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:18 pm

The pressure regulator that CC sells is adjustable & you will need to order the gauge along with it. This should go in line just before the take off where the S1 braided line attaches. 94psi is an extremely high line pressure which I have to think would have caused some leaks at the machine by now if that is accurate. Are you sure it is showing 6.5? What do you see when you are pulling a shot? That high of a line pressure would kick your shot pressure way up as CC sets that with a 30PSI line pressure running into the machine.

Post by **boldstep** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:36 pm

Hey JohnB,
Thanks.... I think I am reading it correctly. The units of the gauge are BAR, right? When I pull a shot the pointer on the gauge slams to 10 BAR. What does yours do?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:59 pm

I'm surprised that you are only seeing 10bar if your house pressure is 6.5 bar. The rotary pumps adds pressure to the house pressure. Chris Coffee adjusts the pressure to 9bar before shipment which would be relative to the water pressure they have at their store. You definitely need to adjust it down to between 8.2 and 9bar.

You can find instructions here if you don't know how to do it:
http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/images/V2%20O ... Manual.pdf

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:43 pm

I'd hold off on the adjustment until you install the regulator as you will only end up adjusting again. Who knows, installing the regulator may just bring it right down where it is supposed to be. 9 bars is a good starting point; mine came set there & I've never messed with it.

Post by **Niko** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:04 am

I think all the regulators are set to about 25-30 psi, I had 3 regulators from Chris' and only one gauge and they all registered the same water pressure. Maybe luck?

One regulator is gone to meet its maker and now I have a gauge for each and every one of them. I only had to adjust one of them so far.

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:35 am

Niko wrote:I think all the regulators are set to about 25-30 psi, I had 3 regulators from Chris' and only one gauge and they all registered the same water pressure. Maybe luck?
.

Not luck, thats where they set them & when they set the 9bar shot pressure on the S1the machine is hooked up to their 30psi feed.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:39 am

Unless less they've changed the design, mine has a large slotted plastic screw on on side with a plastic lock nut. Screwing this in (after loosening the lock nut) increases the output pressure, out reduces the output pressure.

When I first received mine from CC the adjustment mechanism didn't work. As an engineer, the first thing I did was take it apart! I noticed that when CC had screwed the John Guest fittings in, one was screwed in so far that it blocked the adjuster mechanism from moving. Loosening the JG fittings a little fixed that.

There's not much to this thing. It just has a thin, convex metal disk that sits in a channel between the input and output ports so that it blocks the water. This is the position with the adjuster screw loosened. When you tighten the screw it pushes on the high side of the disk and flexes it out of the water channel. So this seems to me like its nothing more than a washerless faucet! So I'd call it a pressure adjuster not a regulator. To me a regulator would maintain a fixed output pressure regardless of the input pressure. It's not clear that this device does that.

Post by **boldstep** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:45 pm

I'm surprised that you are only seeing 10bar if your house pressure is 6.5 bar. The rotary pumps adds pressure to the house pressure. Chris Coffee adjusts the pressure to 9bar before shipment which would be relative to the water pressure they have at their store. You definitely need to adjust it down to between 8.2 and 9bar.

It actually shows about 10.5 bar when the pump kicks in. I've ordered the regulator from CC; they say it should be calibrated to 25-30psi but it also is adjustable if needed. I am wondering how this going to change my shot taste, i.e. it seems I am operating with a lot more pressure then you folks so I assume that would mean I would need to grind finer to achieve the same extraction time. We shall see when I get it next week.

Happy 4th!

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:17 pm

I think you will see an improvement in the cup once you get the pressure down around 9 bar. Where is the M4 set when you grind the Toscano? Dose? I'm typically on the #3 or 1 tooth past for 17g doubles.

Post by **boldstep** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:08 pm

I think you will see an improvement in the cup once you get the pressure down around 9 bar. Where is the M4 set when you grind the Toscano? Dose? I'm typically on the #3 or 1 tooth past for 17g doubles.

I hope you are right above the taste improvement...

My MACAP doserless grinder is set close to "7.5" for a Toscano double dose @ 17g. I am not sure it's valid to compare grinders like this; in other words, are all MACAP grinders dialed in identically from the factory? For example, I start hearing the ticks of the burrs touching when I get close to "6" whereas you clearly grind all the way down to "3" without hearing the ticks...

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:39 am

If you have an M4 stepless then I can only guess that the black numbered ring is mounted wrong, if that is possible. #6 is on the high side of drip grinding. There are variations from grinder to grinder but not huge ones like that. You shouldn't be hearing the "ticking" of the burrs until you get down close to #1-#1.5.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:51 am

Ok, I just removed the black ring & spun it to see where it would index with the burr carrier again. It drops back in place at 7.5 so your ring is not mounted properly. Remove the 3 screws, lift the ring & place it back on the carrier with the #3 where you had the 7.5. Wiggle it a little & the ring will index with the cut outs in the carrier. Replace the screws & you are now reading the settings properly.

Post by **boldstep** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:49 pm

It drops back in place at 7.5 so your ring is not mounted properly. Remove the 3 screws, lift the ring & place it back on the carrier with the #3 where you had the 7.5.

Thanks! Actually, it drops back in three possible orientations with my current grind - all with different numbers: 1.5, 4.5, and 7.5.

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:43 pm

I think the difference in our reference numbers has to do with where on the worm drive you index your numbers. When I say my zero is 1.5 & I'm grinding at 3 these numbers are lined up with a mark I made at the center point on top of the worm drive. Use the center of the worm drive as your reference point & tell me where your zero & espresso setting is. Unless they changed the mold your black ring & mine should be indexing with the same 3 possible numbers when installed.

Post by **boldstep** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:15 pm

Yes, you are correct. With my original setting (what I called a 7.5) it is actually a 3 when read relative to the worm drive. Moreover, I get about 1.75 when I hear the ticking, using the same reference point. As a side note, I find it an odd place to read off the grind setting because it is behind the hopper, meaning that you have to remove the hopper to read off the number.

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:34 pm

Depends how you have your grinder positioned I guess. Mine sits sideways on the counter so the worm is on one end & the p/f stand on the other. Both easily accessible.

Post by **Niko** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:18 am

Aye John, when are you getting your board upgraded? :P
C'mon - I've been waiting....

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:20 am

Niko wrote:Aye John, when are you getting your board upgraded? :P
C'mon - I've been waiting....

The plan to take a day off & ride up to Albany is history as I've got too much to do before we leave for Wyoming this Friday. New plan is to ship it up Thursday afternoon so when we return it will be back & there will be no sitting around staring at my idle machine.

Post by **boldstep** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:30 pm

So I received the pressure gauge from CC today. Just curious how you guys set the gauge pressure. CC told me I should adjust it to 25 psi with the brew head open. Now, do I do this with a puck in place or not?

Alternatively, it seems to me I could adjust it so that the gauge in the front of the V2 reads 8-9 bar when brewing my typical espresso.

Perhaps both approaches would lead to the same setting... just wanted to know if anyone had played with this. Or perhaps I am over thinking this altogether.. :D

Post by **Richard** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:38 pm

boldstep wrote:Or perhaps I am over thinking this altogether.. :D

Likely. Just open the group (hit the brew button) so the water is flowing (no puck!) and adjust the incoming water pressure. Static pressure, i.e., pressure when the group is not open or the boiler is not filling, will be somewhat higher.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:36 pm

Niko wrote:Aye John, when are you getting your board upgraded? :P
C'mon - I've been waiting....

I sent it off today so I'll be good to go when we get back. Very sad seeing my Vivaldi all apart on the counter!!

Post by **Niko** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:57 pm

Yes, it was sad indeed to see my machine in pieces too!
It will be totally worth it, you'll see

For some reason, it was much easier to put my machine back together than I remember. The side panel was a breeze - unlike the horrific experiences I've had with my other Vivaldi. This just goes to prove that no two machines are exactly alike, after all they are assembled by hand, right?

Can't wait to read about your upgrade, John.

Post by **Bud** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:41 am

Niko wrote:Yes, it was sad indeed to see my machine in pieces too!
It will be totally worth it, you'll see

For some reason, it was much easier to put my machine back together than I remember. The side panel was a breeze - unlike the horrific experiences I've had with my other Vivaldi.

I was wonderin bout dat. Ya, I heard all those nightmarish stories and cryin about getting the side panels back together. About 20 seconds of lining things up, it popped right on; thought, 20 second struggle?

Post by **Niko** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:59 pm

Nice to hear that, Bud!
You're gonna' love having that preinfusion

Count me as one of those wimps for sure

....here's my nightmare that finally ended at around 3:44 AM! - I was finally piecing the old Vivaldi S1 back together late, late, very late last night and to my dismay the F'ing (Freaking) side panels did me in. This time, for the record, out of pure frustration I managed to snap a piece of the side panel off

Yeah! I never felt so better, I call it revenge that a little Super Glue can fix. Finally after dropping my nuts about 3 times I was able to finish the job. I didn't remove either side panel, it just ended up that way for me start nut-dropping again. I've come to the conclusion that me and the VI just don't hang right, we're not a good combo, the damn parts just don't align for me

As for the VII, we live in harmony together and the side panels are a BREEZE

And yes, a job that should've taken me no longer than 10-15 minutes ended up being around 47 minutes!
1. Remove panels, etc. -- 2 minutes
2. Install preinfusion chamber -- 1 minutes
3. Fighting with the side panels -- Priceless

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:01 pm

The P/I excitement seems to have died down a bit?? Haven't been drinking much Espresso lately as I have some other interesting coffees in house but I do 1 or 2 a day. Tried 3,4,6 sec settings with 25 psi & so far I'm not noticing much if any change. It may just be the S/O Espresso I'm using right now but I was getting better pours before turning on the p/i. I'll play with it more when the weather cools off but for now I'm turning off the p/i.

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:07 pm

So when yo go from pulling shots with a blend you've dialed in without p/i to the same with p/i are you changing anything? Tamp? Grind? ect?

Post by **Bud** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:26 am

TomP10 wrote:
JohnB wrote:So when yo go from pulling shots with a blend you've dialed in without p/i to the same with p/i are you changing anything? Tamp? Grind? ect?
John:

The most obvious thing that needs to be change is the volume of water dosed... with preinfusion you need to increase the volume.

As far as grind goes, I was surprised how little I needed to change. Rarely does a day go by where I don't change the grind setting a bit --- nothing dramatically different when I switched to the preinfusion.... yes, there was an adjustment, but about what I do on a day-to-day basis.

I strive to keep my tamping routine consistent --- no change.
- Tom

I concur with everything Tom has said. In I nutshell; nothing changed except dose setting will need a bit more water, (after the upgrade, I recalibrated the volume dosing the same as before the upgrade without coffee; I made a few unintentional ristrettos before I realized the preinfued shots need more water volume). My impression is that I am definitely getting more consistent shots.

Good Luck

Bud
P.S. Those unintentional ristrettos were damn good!

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:27 am

I don't have any volume issues as I pull my shots on a button set for 4 oz & simply cut my shots at the first sign of blonding. Contrary to everyone else here I have yet to get a decent shot with the p/i turned on. I can be pulling very nice shots, turn on the p/i & end up with a squirter. I definitely am not seeing an improvement in taste as you don't get good flavors from lousy shots. Since my non p/i shots are just fine I can easily live without turning on the p/i but I'm curious why my experiences have been the opposite of everyone else.

Post by **Bud** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:12 am

JohnB wrote:I don't have any volume issues as I pull my shots on a button set for 4 oz & simply cut my shots at the first sign of blonding. Contrary to everyone else here I have yet to get a decent shot with the p/i turned on. I can be pulling very nice shots, turn on the p/i & end up with a squirter. I definitely am not seeing an improvement in taste as you don't get good flavors from lousy shots. Since my non p/i shots are just fine I can easily live without turning on the p/i but I'm curious why my experiences have been the opposite of everyone else.

This is a puzzler! Are you running an overall unusual pump pressure? Also is the bean you are pulling, an out of the norm blend with maybe a high quantity of a