Changing Filter and softener cartridges .....

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italyhound

Changing Filter and softener cartridges .....

Post by italyhound »

I bought the filtration and softenening system through Chris. I don't recall how often the filter needs changing. I do remember getting a hardness rating on my water here locally but I have no clue how many gallons I use so I never paid attention

I was thinking of blindly changing both every 6 months. Is this reasonable? Do you get your replacement filters through chris?

Thanks
Weska

Post by Weska »

I don't have Chris's system but one quite similar that I bought locally.

I find that the softener becomes exhausted quite irregularly, sometimes lasting three or four months and sometimes spent in two. This may have something to do with variations in sources of water during the year.

Anyhow, I don't think you can trust a rigid schedule until you have confirmed it with regular testing. I test about once a month and still run into times when I'm up into the teens of grains. I'm thinking of testing more often.

The strips, by the way, are relatively crude and approximate. Better to use the acquarium-style titration kits.
Niko

Post by Niko »

I use Chris' system.
I'm scheduled to change the carbon filter next month (1 yr anniv) on my S1 on the 4th of July. As far as the softener goes, it's literally brand new since the water has almost no traces of hardness out here.
I did the math once, it came out to changing it every 2-3 months for me also if I had it in another house where the water hardness was in the high teens. I average about 5,800 shots a year and there's no way to exhaust the carbon filter in any less time than that. I'm changing the softener cartridge as well because it gets pretty nasty looking and I'm too lazy to clean it or recharge it for that matter.
On my VII, I still have about 8 months to go and I already installed extra JG plumbing with extra "T's", shutoffs and tubing so I don't have to interrupt the machine to purge the new filters. Nice idea from some of the other guys on the forum here. I can't wait for the next filter change, it won't be a pain in the a$$.

Evan,
If you do change your carbon filter...can I have it? -- Just kidding, you should be good for another 5 months with yours since you got you Viv back in Nov from what I recall.
On the other hand, if you have any doubt about the softener, change it every 4-6 months to be on the safe side of things. It really depends on your useage.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

I don't remember my water hardness but I do recall that I got an approximate gallonage (?word) after which it should be changed and I thought that info and a token would get me a subway.

I am not sure if I understood Weska right but it sounds like he is testing the water coming out of the machine which seems to me to be a darn good idea. If I assume correctly, the grains will creep up as the softener becomes exhausted?

Anyway, thanks to Niko for giving me an additional 6 month reprieve for the carbon filter. I also got the whole system with the valves that allow me to shut it off and replace the cartridges easily. That seems like a really nice feature.

I should probably make my next step a good water hardness tester.

Evan
Niko

Post by Niko »

Evan, the test strips that Chris has work just fine. I know they're not rocket science and fancy shmancy but they do the trick. If you want to test the water, you certainly want to run some out of the machine but it will really give you good idea when you use both strips in the package. Run one from the machine and the other from your unfiltered tap. You'll see a big difference between the two strips in color, it's when they start looking the same that tells you the machine's reached the hardness of your tap water. If your hardness is in the high teens (like 18-19 grains), then I'd change it more often depending on your usage. If you think you're using about 5 gallons of water per week (lots of flushing and blank shots, etc..), then I'd change the softener every 8 weeks or so. But certainly test it every month and then more frequently as the softener ages with use so you don't fall behind in maintenance of the boilers.
Weska

Post by Weska »

You understood me right, italyhound. I test water coming out of the filters, and I don't test the tap water except rarely out of curiousity.

My setup diverts the filtered/softened water not only to the Vivaldi but also to a small drinking water tap mounted next to my sink. This serves as a source for that and, like the T-joint and valve under the countertop that Niko and others use, as a way to relieve pressure to remove the cartridges and to purge them when new.

I can agree with Niko that the strips are fine if your incoming hardness is rather low. Then his system of comparing the filtered output with the unfiltered as an upper limit is very practical. If your background hardness is far too high to allow in your Vivaldi, then I believe you need more frequent and more accurate quantitative readings so you can watch the trend of rising hardness as the cartridge ages. It's nice to see the rate at which the grains creep up at least once.

If your hardness is high like mine, you could buy just one titration kit to see how things are going. Once you know that your hardness is pretty consistent, you could revert to the strips. If your hardness is extremely variable like mine, then I would stick to titration.

It all depends on that background hardness. If that "gallonage" you derived was in the hundreds, then Niko's system is a good one.

If you meant by getting a good tester that you intended to buy a hardness meter, then that's where I would draw the overkill line. The acquarium test kits are plenty accurate--one drop added equals one grain of hardness. Mine cost me about eight dollars (probably you can get it for less there) and looks like it will last me at least a year.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Well, since I like to over do everything....
I'd like one of these under my sink hooked up to the VII.
Image
I already have some emails flying out to various companies and I'll report my findings.
Yeah baby! No testing, just push a button and drink bear while the tester does its job.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

Wooooow..... that's coooool. :shock:

Keep us posted.....

Evan
Weska

Post by Weska »

A lovely piece of gear, Niko. No more schoolkid chemistry set toys! Neither strips nor beakers. And it would make my uncertainty about how often to test with my dropper bottle completely irrelevant.

Under the sink might be a little too understated, however. There should be some way to bring real-time tds readings into the display of the VII timer. Maybe in alternation with the timer's own information. If it can't be brought there, then maybe into your new MACAP blue panel. 8)
Niko

Post by Niko »

I got some replies about the digital meter. The one in the pic above only costs about $30. I think it's worth it so I might order one soon. I'll start a new thread after I get the tester.
I'll keep ya'll posted.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

Please do. I am all over getting that if it works out for you.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Just ordered it today.
I should have it installed by early-mid next week and I'll post immediately with a report.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

Well Well ? Huh Huh?

:clock:
Niko

Post by Niko »

OK, sorry I just got it yesterday...
Here's an initial report.
Due to my water quality being at "0" grains of hardness, I told you I had really good water out here, I was able to confirm this with my new digital meter along with the Chris Coffee strips and an aquarium kit.
So the next true test comes this weekend where I get to connect this digital meter permanently on my older S1 at another location where the hardness levels are way up in the teens. It will be a great tool to have on that plumbing.
I'll post a pic of it installed by this Sunday.
4vDesmo

Post by 4vDesmo »

Niko wrote:... at another location where the hardness levels are way up in the teens.....
Stop it! You're killing me!

Way up in the teens?? Las Vegas water, right out of the tap, is well over 400. Even after HEAVY treatment it's well above "way up in the teens".

You're doing this to just to cause me grief, aren't you?

Steve
Niko

Post by Niko »

Maybe I'm posting the wrong numbers here, the water isn't very good where my other S1 is installed and if the numbers are correct, 19ppm is what I mean and according to the math on the water softener it's only going to soften a about 45 gallons of water. When you list a number of 400, that sounds like it's above the Federal limit, wow. I'm talking about well water on my machine and the faucets in the house are literally turning white.
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Post by chas »

Are you all mixing grains of hardness vs PPM? There's an 18.1x difference. If it really is 19 grains, that would be about 345PPM. However, if it really is 19ppm then you are just over 1 grain - soft.
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Niko

Post by Niko »

Chas,
I think you're correct. I posted 19 grains of hardness, that's what I meant, not PPM's.
That's what my home testing with Chris' strips and an aquarium kit told me but I guess if I'd read the water reports I get, they also state 19 grains. That is pretty high hence the scale build up on some of my faucets. I guess that's why the softener will only treat roughly 45 gallons.
My VII is hooked up where nothing even registers on any testing because of the nice water quality, I assume.

Here's a pic of my unit, notice it has the dual connectors for reading water going IN the filters and then OUT.Image
Image
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Post by MDL »

Niko:
If you are comfortable with the meter please share the details about it and where you bought it. This looks like a reasonable price to pay to insure that water quality is appropriate.
Thanks for your efforts,
Mark
Niko

Post by Niko »

No problem, I'll post all my findings including where I got it and for how much.
Here's some preliminary tests so far, after tinkering around some more with the VII setup where I wasn't getting anything to register before, I made some adjustments to the probes and finally got a good "believable" average high reading at 12ppm out of my tap. That's still very low in the grain department, now I'm reading the water straight out of the steam boiler.....
that's coming in at a high of 50ppm. :dontknow: this is a headsrcatcher, I'm assuming some traces of hard water is in the boiler from testing the machine prior to shipping from Italy :dontknow: again, I don't know what to make of this but it's still within specs for a well functioning softener. It could also be the metal of the boiler itself causing the readings to shoot up a couple of grains. Doing the math, the incoming is 0.66 grain and the water out of the VII steam boiler is 2.76 grains, not bad. The group boiler came in at a svelte 24ppm which computes to 1.3 grains.
I'll have a far more accurate assessment tomorrow when I permanently plumb this tester in the plumbing, I'll give it a couple of hours rest and the readings should stabilize.
I'm beginning to think about placing another order for another meter (handheld this time) to measure water out of the boilers on the fly. I know this sounds like overkill but I think descaling boilers is a pain in the glutes, an area I don't like to irritate.

More to follow from the older S1 setup where the water quality is way different.
Stayed tuned kids.....
Weska

Post by Weska »

My guess is that what you are seeing is the same as we would all see. That is, the boiler will over time concentrate whatever hardness is allowed into. A small amount of minerals steadily entering will stay there because they can't boil off. As I understand it, eventually all boilers will need descaling unless no whatsoever hardness is admitted.

(And there is an upgrade idea. Double boiler with separate water supply lines, one connected to the brew boiler that takes in some level of taste enhancing hardness and the other into the steam boiler with RO or distilled as the only input.)

All of which reminds me of the science riddle about why the oceans don't keep on becoming saltier and saltier. (And I forgot the answer.)
Niko

Post by Niko »

Here's the bad part about connecting this digital meter...it's basically telling me that my softener cartridge is TOAST. My incoming water is at a low of 125 PPM (sometimes I've seen it spike at 345 in the past and according to past water reports). I'll take it, 125 PPM is good for this area but the bad part is the outgoing from the filters is at 125 PPM also! Yikes, time to get another cartridge or recharge it.
As for the VII setup, that's so low in the PPM that it'll take years for those boilers to accumulate enough scale build up to warrant an exorcising of the boilers.
If any water experts are out there who can explain this better, please feel free to chime in and explain what's happening according to these numbers the meter is displaying. In the meantime, I think I'll grab the extra softener cartridge in the cabinet and install it before I fire up the Vivaldi I next time.
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Post by chas »

OK, you convinced me. I ordered a DM-1 last night! I was surprised how little extra the two port version was compared to the single port in your original picture.
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italyhound

Post by italyhound »

I see the unit on ebay for $26.95 and free shipping. There is an industrial version for 12 bucks more but I don't see how that will help me. Search DM1 TDS monitor on ebay.


I am getting one. Thanks Niko!

Evan
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Post by chas »

I'm not sure if it was obvious or even an option on ebay, but the place I ordered them from had them pre-configured with either 1/4" or 3/8" JG fittings. The ebay price is 2/3 of what I paid but if you buy it with the wrong fittings and have to go out an buy the correct ones, you'll probably eat up a lot of the savings.
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italyhound

Post by italyhound »

Chas

For the softener/filter hookup that I bought fron Chris, what size fitting do I need - 1/4 or 3/8???

The ebay one says it is standard for 1/4 but comes with a 3/8 tee. Extra 3/8 tees are 0.99 each.

I would post the link but cant figure out how to imbed it in the post.

Evan
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Post by chas »

Chris sells both 1/4" and 3/8" versions. When I purchased mine he recommended the 3/8" but a number of folks on this forum have stated that they have 1/4" versions. I just looked at both the 1/4" and 3/8" tubing and the size is printed on the side of both.

Another rule of thumb is the the 1/4" size is about the same outer diameter as the soda straws at McDonalds and the 3/8" size is....bigger!
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Post by MDL »

The Vivaldi II has 3/8 tubing coming out of it. You can plumb with 1/4, but the final braided tube to the machine is 3/8 and you are better off being sure that you don't starve the machine by using 3/8 all the way.
Niko

Post by Niko »

I think this unit is most useful with RO setups, I'm using just the softener and carbon filter setup so it's reporting de-solved solids before and after the filter system. A softener exchanges one de-solved solid for another and that's why my numbers are similar. I'm still keeping mine hooked up because it's good to know how crappy my incoming water is and besides, when the numbers start to radically change in the outgoing I'll know something is awry.
So after much research and contact with some water experts, there's no electronic device for measuring os calcium in water for hardness. Still this is a very cool device to have especially if you run an RO system.
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Post by ScottW »

As Niko says -- This meter won't correctly show "hardness" of softener-treated water. It is basically relying on conductivity of the water to compute Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). Simple resin softeners simply replace magnesium/calcium ions with sodium/potassium ions. This leaves the TDS the same, so the meter will register the same before/after the softening, whether the softener is working or not. :-(

There are ion selective electrodes that can measure specific compounds (including calcium), but they are pricey and tough to calibrate properly. Here's an example, if you've got $250 laying around:
http://www.americanmarineusa.com/camonitorfacts.html

I think I'll keep using the little test strips, and spend the $$ on coffee. :-)
Niko

Post by Niko »

One guy did tell me that if we use a softener with anion and Cation resins, this meter will be well suited for it.
So....I'm looking into right now.



...and Scott, I love that meter!
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

OK - so now I am confused. Is this meter appropriate or not for this particular application? :?:
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Post by ScottW »

italyhound wrote:OK - so now I am confused. Is this meter appropriate or not for this particular application? :?:
There are two different meters mentioned. The TDS meter that Niko bought is inexpensive, and is fine for measuring "incoming" water, but it won't provide any indication of whether or how well a softener system is working. This is because it measures TDS, and TDS doesn't change when water goes through a resin softener system. (TDS does change when water goes through an RO system, which is what that meter was designed to monitor.)

The meter shown at the link I provided uses a selective electrode, so that actual mineral content can be measured. However, it is rather expensive and it still may not give an accurate reading when hardness is from multiple minerals.

The TDS meter that Niko bought will not give you any indication of how well (or if) a cartridge softener system is working. Assuming most of your mineral content is calcium, the meter at the link I provided will do that -- but at a very high price, and it cannot be "plumbed in".
Niko

Post by Niko »

I'm still waiting for a reply from someone about the anion/cation cartridge. If he confirms this, I'll be looking into getting one to try out.



I'm still keeping this meter plumbed in because of the incoming water measurement capability, it'll save me on half the test strips used since I use two every time anyway (one for incoming and the other for outgoing).
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Source for carbon and softener cartridges

Post by MDL »

I just ordered cartridges from

wateranywhere.com (the web dealer for Applied Membranes). I ordered the following:

HF-2510AC 2.5" x 9.75" 10 micron carbon $7.00

HF-2510soft 10" standard softening $8.00

For my order of 3 softening and 1 carbon shipping was $11.54 for a total with tax of $43.04; far, far less than ordering from Chris.

Also note that for folks with very hard water you can buy a 10" big blue filter holder that is 4" in diameter. Those softener cartridges have a capacity of something like 2100 grains instead of about 800 for the ones we got from Chris.

Take care,
Mark
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Re: Source for carbon and softener cartridges

Post by chas »

MDL wrote:I ordered the following:

HF-2510AC 2.5" x 9.75" 10 micron carbon $7.00

HF-2510soft 10" standard softening $8.00

For my order of 3 softening and 1 carbon shipping was $11.54 for a total with tax of $43.04; far, far less than ordering from Chris.

Take care,
Mark
Thanks for the tip. I ordered three softener cartridges from them yesterday. Even though the shipping was pretty steep, the total cost still came out to $13.00 each for shipping to the east coast. Chris sells them for $28 each and most other on-line sources I found sold them for $18.00 each.
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Post by chas »

Niko, what size JG tees did your DM-1 come with? The place I ordered mine from sold them in 1/4" versions and 3/8" versions. I ordered the 3/8" version.

To my surprise it came with a 1/4" JG tee on the inlet side and a 3/8" fitting on the outlet side. That don't seem right but I thought I'd ask you how yours came before I bitch.
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Post by MDL »

Chas:
I placed my order on Tuesday afternoon (as posted) and received the package on Thursday afternoon. They seem very responsive and the cartridges look exactly like the ones that came from Chris. The shipping cost seems to get more reasonable as the order gets larger; I initially ordered 2 softener and 1 carbon cartridge but decided to add a 3rd softener to the order; the additional cartridge only added $1 to the shipping cost.
If you look at the cost of the filter holders you will notice that the 10" ones that we have only cost $8 each! Now, when Chris sells them he has added the JG fittings so you have to add a few bucks for those.
Take care,
Mark
Niko

Post by Niko »

Chas,
I asked for 3/8" Tees and they sent me the unit with 1/4 'inchers installed. I then found the 3/8" Tees buried in the packaging, I guess someone was too lazy to install them for me. Now I have an extra pair sitting around so I threw them in my gadget bag.

1/4" Teeees, anyone?
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

Dumb question.

Got my replacement softener and it's been a while since I saw the setup so I forgot how it went together. Ho do I get the new one in there?? Do I remove the screws from the bracket into the black top and the blue container pops off?

Thanks

Evan
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Post by chas »

Niko wrote:Chas,
I asked for 3/8" Tees and they sent me the unit with 1/4 'inchers installed. I then found the 3/8" Tees buried in the packaging, I guess someone was too lazy to install them for me. Now I have an extra pair sitting around so I threw them in my gadget bag.

1/4" Teeees, anyone?
I checked the fine print from the vendor and it did state that the 3/8" JG fitting was on the outlet side and a 1/4" JG was used on the inlet side. This doesn't make any sense to me but that's the way it is. I have since obtained a 3/8" fitting and hope to install the DM-1 this weekend.
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Post by Niko »

italyhound wrote:Dumb question.

Got my replacement softener and it's been a while since I saw the setup so I forgot how it went together. Ho do I get the new one in there?? Do I remove the screws from the bracket into the black top and the blue container pops off?

Thanks

Evan
If I understand your question correctly, Evan. I think you just need to relieve some pressure in the JG line and then just simply unscrew the blue filter housing to get access to your cartridge. You won't be ale to unscrew it easily without relieving that pressure.

Chas,
My unit was leaking last week! I checked the connections and one of the JG 3/8" Tees was broken. Somehow it got cracked from angle of turning it, weird...never had that happen with a JG part.
Last edited by Niko on Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ScottW »

italyhound wrote:Got my replacement softener and it's been a while since I saw the setup so I forgot how it went together. Ho do I get the new one in there?? Do I remove the screws from the bracket into the black top and the blue container pops off?
Evan
The blue housing should unscrew from the black top. A special filter wrench (sort of a half-circle with handle) is normally supplied with the housing to help get it started. Then it just spins off.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

ooh. I threw that thing out thinking it was only for installation. I guess I will call Chris Monday and replace it. :oops:
Niko

Post by Niko »

You don't need that wrench.
Just grab it and throw some muscle into it.
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

That was easy - Thanks Niko.
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