5C to 1C Mod

[Endo]

Anybody ever change a new 5C machine to display in 1C?

Since my machine is new from LaSpaziale (2008), I was wondering if it would be something as easy as pressing some combination of buttons (so it could be done easily on the production line), or if it involves a more complicated firmware change that would need to be done at Chris Coffee?

[JohnB]

I could be wrong but I thought that required swapping the old style V1 board for a V2 board. If you think you already have the newer board you could try the V1/V2 mode switch detailed on pg 10 of the S1V2 manual but in the past this hasn't worked on a Mini.

[Endo]

I would bet the Mini-Vivaldi only has one board. The difference between the mk1 and mk2 has nothing to do with how new the machine is (like on the regular Vivaldi). You can buy either version and the boards work exactly the same in all ways except for the temperature display. mk2 is available mostly through Chris Coffee and mk1 available direct from LaSpaziale.

So if it is true the board is the same, they must have some way of selecting mk1 or mk2 at the LaSpaziale factory or else Chris does some firmware and sticker change when he receives the units.

If it was simply some secret combination of buttons to switch from 5C to 1C, that would be great. Otherwise, maybe Chris can do it for me easily (I know he sells the stickers).

[chas]

The VII units have a hidden mode documented in the manual on the VII/VII Mini Site that lets you jump between VI and VII modes. The switches between the 5C and the 1C modes. I had an early adopter of the VII Mini try to do this switch and he said that nothing happened. You should try this to confirm that it is true.

Jason, CC LaSpaz Super-Tech, told me that the VII and VII Mini use the same controller board but with a different firmware load. It's obvious that there have to be some differences in the code since the VII supports Economy mode whereas the VII Mini uses that lamp for low water level and must also ready the water level sensor. Also, Preinfusion has to be disabled since there is no water pressure to support their implementation of PI.

However, did they also remove the 5C/VI mode? The proof is left to the reader.

[Endo]

I have the new Mini manual from LaSpaziale and they have a section for changing temp for the mk1 (5C)and another chapter below it for the mk2 (1C). This is the only place in the manual where they describe a difference.

With either version (mk1 or mk2) you can switch to the other mode (5C or 1C). I use 1C often. Still, since mine is a mk1, I can change it to 96C (for example), but it doesn't diplay 96C (obviously, since the next LED after 95C reads 100C). Instead, it shows both 95C and 100C flashing when setting to 96C, but once set, you never know. It simply shows 95C and you need to remember you've added another 1C.

The mk2 does soemthing similar for allowing it to run in 5C mode if you choose. (So they all come with the best of both worlds now, it seems).

Still, it would be nice if it would display that way as well. Although I understand it would require you to change the temperature increment sticker.

[JohnB]

The mk2 does soemthing similar for allowing it to run in 5C mode if you choose. (So they all come with the best of both worlds now, it seems).

The S1V2 can do this, we have yet to see anyone with a Mini V2 do his switch back to V1 mode.

[oton]

I can confirm you that in my Mini VII I can switch between VI and VII with the Hot Water Button. 3 yellow lights = V2, 3 green lights = V1

[Endo]

I can confirm you that in my Mini VII I can switch between VI and VII with the Hot Water Button. 3 yellow lights = V2, 3 green lights = V1

Great! That works for me too. Just hold the hot water switch for 10 seconds and it switches from VI to VII mode. I now display in 1C increments. I now have a VII (minus the sticker), excellent.

Only thing missing is the dual manometer. I can add that for $65. I could also order the front panel with a square hole for $35. But since the brew needle seems to really wobble, I think I'll probably stick with my $20 PF gauge I made. I don't look at the brew pressure much anyway.

Nice to know it's so easy to go from VI to VII on the Mini.

[oton]

Only thing missing is the dual manometer. I can add that for $65. I could also order the front panel with a square hole for $35. But since the brew needle seems to really wobble, I think I'll probably stick with my $20 PF gauge I made. I don't look at the brew pressure much anyway.

I'm actually looking at the manometer when I make a shot. AFAIK in the Vivaldi the manometer always read the same (?), however in the Mini the pressure is not always the same and changes depend of PF dosing, grinding and tamping. In my Mini, with blind PF basket, the manometer reads about 9.2 bar or so (as you said, the needle wobbles, so it's difficult to get an accurate read) however when I make a shot, usually the manometer reads between 8.5 - 9.0 bar. If I downdosing, grind coarser or tamp lighter, the manometer reads even low... so actually the manometer helps me in someway to know if I grinded/tamped/dosing properly.

[Endo]

I'm actually looking at the manometer when I make a shot. AFAIK in the Vivaldi the manometer always read the same (?), however in the Mini the pressure is not always the same and changes depend of PF dosing, grinding and tamping. In my Mini, with blind PF basket, the manometer reads about 9.2 bar or so (as you said, the needle wobbles, so it's difficult to get an accurate read) however when I make a shot, usually the manometer reads between 8.5 - 9.0 bar. If I downdosing, grind coarser or tamp lighter, the manometer reads even low... so actually the manometer helps me in someway to know if I grinded/tamped/dosing properly.

The OPV sets your max pressure, in your case, that is 9.2 bar (same as mine). When running there is typically a 0.25 to 0.5 bar drop in the measured pressure, this is typical from what I've read.

The lower pressure is set by the flow resistence in the coffee. It can be as low as you like (zero if you leave the coffee out all together).

This brings up an interesting point; Should we always be grinding fine enough to "max out" the OPV? If the answer is yes, then no brew gauge is necessary. If the answer is no, then a brew gauge would be a good idea. I always assumed if you ground the coffee coarse enough to be below the max OPV setting, the shot would be too volumous or too fast, improperly extracted and very inconsistant (non-reproducable).

What do these "low pressure" shots look and taste like?

[JohnB]

Hopefully you two remembered that your temp offset setting gets wiped out in the switch from V2 to V1 & made note of where it was before switching so you can reset it properly.

[Endo]

Doh!

I know nothing about temp offset (never played with it). I just go by taste and am happy if the temperature is stable.

Since my machine came direct from LaSpaziale, would it still have a factory offset? Or, is this something only Chris Coffee plays with before shipping? (It says nothing in my manual from LaSpaziale).

What is the typical range of offsets? How far off could my machine be now?

[chas]

Since it sounds like you've switched back and forth between VI and VII modes, you're offset is currently at 0C. That most likely means you are +-2C from being spot on.

[JohnB]

Sounds like its time to get out the hankies. Somebody didn't read the fine print.

[chas]

As discussed a while back in another thread, when you switch to VI mode, then back to VII mode all settings that are new to the VII mode and not part of the original VI are wiped. So in addition to losing the temp offset, PI is turned off (only for VII Maxi), and you would lose the extended range offset below 88C or above 97C if that had been changed from 0C. Also, in the Maxi, if you were in front panel initiated ECON mode that would be switched off during the transition.

I think it's time for Endo to enroll in the Sakurama Rent-a-Scace program!

[Endo]

As discussed a while back in another thread, when you switch to VI mode, then back to VII mode all settings that are new to the VII mode and not part of the original VI are wiped. So in addition to losing the temp offset, PI is turned off (only for VII Maxi), and you would lose the extended range offset below 88C or above 97C if that had been changed from 0C. Also, in the Maxi, if you were in front panel initiated ECON mode that would be switched off during the transition.

I think it's time for Endo to enroll in the Sakurama Rent-a-Scace program!

Keep in mind, my machine started off as a VI, so it never had an offset when I switched to VII. Is this correct?

Even then, I think we're kidding ourselves if we expect better than +/-2C accuracy, even with a Scace.

The tech specialist (and pro roaster) at my retailer, says he sets his V1 to 100C and never touches it. Whatever tastes good, I guess.

But I still like the Scace rental idea though.

[oton]

My offset came from factory at 0. My mini it's not from Chris; i'm in Europe.

[Endo]

Good to here. I didn't notice any difference at all in taste when I switched from VI to VII so I think mine was probably 0 as well.

This whole temperature accuracy thing seems rather silly to me. The temp stability is more important. I look at the lights only as 1C increments, not absolutes. Who knows what the real temp is in the coffee anyway. There is gradient in the puck, the cold nose, the drop in temperature during the shot (as pointed out by Greg Scace himself). I only think the absolute temperature is important if you are trying to compare machines and if you assume the exact same coffee, grind and technique is used for both machines. For my purposes, I only care about "relative" changes.

[JohnB]

Keep telling yourself that & maybe you'll actually believe it. Then you can hang out with the Pro that brews espresso with boiling water. If your machines only have the factory offset, i.e. 0*C, you might be fine as that was where mine ended up after CC checked it. Most have a corrected offset + or - 0*, some as much as 3*c. Personally I'd want to know especially if I was posting brew temp recommendations for others on the forum. That $16 K meter w/thermocouple I mentioned & a styro cup will give you a pretty good idea how close your machines temps are to what you have selected.

[Endo]

Temperature is not a flavor, it's a means to achieving a desired taste. What matters is that this temperature is "repeatable". After that, it just means moving up or or down.

Like tuning a musical instrument, you can be slightly "off key" and still sound fine. If you have a "band" of S1s playing together, then yes, you better all be in tune. So for temperature discussions here, yes, it would be nice if everyone was calibrated.

Still, since you don't know many of the brew variables the other people are using (like warmup time, warming flushes, dose, bean freshness, etc) absolute temp comparisons (like 92C) and how they translate into relative taste are rather ridiculous.

Trust your taste. It's all that matters.

I'll may borrow a Fluke from work and measure the temp for fun. But I have no temperature accuracy delusions.

[JohnB]

Temperature is not a flavor, it's a means to achieving a desired taste. What matters is that this temperature is "repeatable". After that, it just means moving up or or down.

Like tuning a musical instrument, you can be slightly "off key" and still sound fine. If you have a "band" of S1s playing together, then yes, you better all be in tune. So for temperature discussions here, yes, it would be nice if everyone was calibrated.

Still, since you don't know many of the brew variables the other people are using (like warmup time, warming flushes, dose, bean freshness, etc) absolute temp comparisons (like 92C) and how they translate into relative taste are rather ridiculous.

Trust your taste. It's all that matters.

I'll may borrow a Fluke from work and measure the temp for fun. But I have no temperature accuracy delusions.

Thank you Jim. Now wheres Endo?? If you believe that knowing what temp you are selecting when you push the button is meaningless then go buy an HX or lever machine. I didn't spend $2k so I could wonder if I'm really getting 93*C (I wasn't) when I select a temp. If I wanted to guess I'd have kept the Vetrano.

[Endo]

To be honest, I bought this machine for speeding up my milk drink production and for the general DB "walk-up shot" convenience. I was also "hoping" to get an improvement in taste over my other machines as well. But, of course, I have enough experience to know the machine is very far down on the list of things that affect taste. So I didn't really expect a lot. Temperature differences of 1C barely register on my taste radar at all. I think a one day difference in bean freshness would be easier to detect.

Still, I have always liked repeatability. And here the S1 is very good since it gives you the same starting point every shot (ignoring "nose warming" effects unfortunately). I installed a PID on my Sivia for that same repeatability reason (again not for taste). Its also the reason I will always dislike HX (not counting the $10K NS Aureila of course) .

Absolute temperature accuracy doesn't really concern me.

[Endo]

I have a friend who bought this digital k-type meter off e-bay for $20 (I think he's using it for roasting). Seems good and has 2 thermocouples so you can measure temp differential.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Digital-Thermometer- ... 240%3A1318

I may borrow it and do some measurents for fun (but mostly so I can compare temps with others here). Anyone else have experience with it? Is it accurate enough?

[oton]

Temperature differences of 1C barely register on my taste radar at all.

Same here. I've read lot of post about how 1 or 2ºC affects the taste... well, I have not supertaste or whatever