How hot should my espresso be-mine is barely warm

[sackpac]

I've had my mini for about a month and a half and in less than a month it developed a bad leak and I had to replace the pump and an expansion valve. About a week later I noticed the espresso wasn't that hot (about 120F)so I upped the temp setting to 97 and the temp is now about 130F. I checked the temp of the water coming directly out of the group w/o the portafilter and it's only about 160F I measured the temp with 3 different thermometers(one of them calibrated) and they all were within a few degrees. When the espresso goes into the shot glass the glass is barely warm to the touch when I'm holding it. I always thought espresso should be infused with water at about 200F and my machine is set at 97(204F)but it's coming out of the group at 160F so that isn't happening. I talked to Tim at Chris' and he had me check a few componants but everything seemed to be fine. I asked him about what the temp should be and he wasn't able to give me an answer saying all machines are different depending on if the PF and shot glass is prewarmed as well as my cup. All are prewarmed and I also left the machine on for several hours to see if that made a difference but nothing did and I'm still getting lukewarm espresso. Can anyone help or have any suggestions? Thank you!

[Niko]

Do you pre-warm the cups or do you pre-burn them?
I warm them to the point of scalding the lips so there's skin hanging with blisters if you're not careful. I noticed a lot of people are not using the cup warmer on their machines, rather it's a nice looking towel rack or butter warmer.
Pre-heating the cups makes a huge difference, if the cup isn't as hot as the espresso - it's going to cool really fast.
Do you have good crema in your shots? Cool espresso will not have good crema.

[JohnB]

I tried the "butter warmer" idea once & once only. Cleaning up the melted butter was not fun. As to the cool espresso are you doing warming flushes before pulling a shot?

[sackpac]

Yes I am doing the warming flush and prewarming the cups. I do have about a 1/4 inch of crema after pulling a shot. When I first got the machine the coffee was hot and I had about 3/4 to 1 inch of crema. The temp varies sometimes anywhere from 130F(most of the time) to 160F but I just thought it should be hotter.

[chas]

Check this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=563

[sackpac]

Thanks chas!

[Niko]

So was it a bad group sensor on your machine?

[gages]

I am having the same issue on a brand new machine. Machine is set to 93C and lights indicate it is at temperature but hot water when pulling shots is only 75C. Hot water from the dispenser (via the boiler) is at 93c. The url above is actually viewtopic.php?f=30&t=563. I wonder if it is the boiler probe sensor.

[chas]

I fixed the link below. Thanks for the head's up on that.

I can't tell from your description if you have a problem or not. I'd need to know exactly where and how you measured the temperature. If, for example, you are trying to measure the temperature of the coffee when it's in your cup there's nothing wrong with 75C. If you are actually trying to measure the temperature of the water in your portafilter, I'd need to know what your exact measuring technique is.

Even of your measuring technique and equipment is spot on, if you started with a cold PF and hadn't pulled a few warming shots before your first measurement, a 75C reading might also be expected.

One final question, what is your offset temperature setting? If this got erroneously set with a significant negative offset, that would be a problem.

[gages]

No PF on the machine, simply running 15 seconds of water into a ceramic cup. Re offset, machine is set for 93C, I checked that by holding in the on/off for 3 seconds, 93C starts to flash.

Note, when I turn on the machine from cold and after the machine says it has reached 93C and run a shot through (again no PF) results are way below 75C.

[JohnB]

No PF on the machine, simply running 15 seconds of water into a ceramic cup. Re offset, machine is set for 93C, I checked that by holding in the on/off for 3 seconds, 93C starts to flash.

Note, when I turn on the machine from cold and after the machine says it has reached 93C and run a shot through (again no PF) results are way below 75C.

First of all the machine should be on for a good 30 minutes or more before pulling the first shot. Secondly your temp testing method will tell you nothing but the temp of the water in your cup. Cut down a styro cup, insert a temp probe so the end is in the middle of the cup not touching the other side, make a small hole in the bottom of the cup to relieve pressure, run a couple 2 oz warming flushes on a hot machine & then hold the cup tight against the grouphead while wearing a hot mitt and measure the 3rd flush temp. This will get you close but won't be dead accurate.

Read the part of the manual that discusses temp offset & then check to see what your machine is set to. Temp offset is not brew temp.

[chas]

No PF on the machine, simply running 15 seconds of water into a ceramic cup. Re offset, machine is set for 93C, I checked that by holding in the on/off for 3 seconds, 93C starts to flash.

Note, when I turn on the machine from cold and after the machine says it has reached 93C and run a shot through (again no PF) results are way below 75C.

That's what I expected you to say, in which case, the results are meaningless.

First, what you described is how to check and set the main temperature. The VII Mini has a feature where you can enter an offset between -8C and +8C relative to that main temperature. This is so that you can measure your actual PF temp (but not the way you are doing it!) and enter an offset so that the water temp at the group is exactly what you set it for. So, for example, if your temp is set for 93C but measures 94C, you can enter a -1C offset and get the water temp to exactly match the setting.

If you have only read the LaSpaz S1 Mini Vivaldi Manual that ships with the machine, you are probably not aware of this offset temperature mode. Please click on the link "VII/VII Mini Site" and the upper right of this page and download the alternate VII Mini User's Manual. It explains how to view your current offset and how to change it. If you purchased your device from Chris Coffee they should have properly set this for you.

You will never see a true reading of the PF water temperature unless you run 2-3 warming flushes through the group with the PF attached and have an accurate digital temperature probe up inside the portafilter while you are checking the temperature. If you aren't doing that, all bets are off.

Rapid Coffee sent out a link yesterday to an official Italian Espresso spec sheet that states that 67C in the cup is the right temp for espresso. You're measuring the temp in the cup but without it going through a coffee puck which would cool a bit more. So I'd be willing to bet that your machine is really spot on.

[gages]

Interesting results.

The manual Chris' sent me did not have the offset instructions. The downloadable version from their website (updated Jan 3, 09) http://www.chriscoffee.com/files/24/Min ... Manual.pdf did.

Offset is confirmed at 0.

No styrofoam in house so had to improvise (thanks for the tip on the over mitts!)

Testing using this method read around 89C which is pretty close for the tolerances of this method.

Interesting how the individual parts act as a system so even if the machine is ready to dispense 93C if the PF is cold then you don't get the desired result.

Thanks for the help!

[chas]

There is a later version on this website. CC either hasn't posted the update I sent last week or else I spaced it out and forgot to sent it to them. Oh well, if its the latter case, it's just as well. I discovered something else I need to add in the next few days. The January 24th updates are just minor things to make Endo happy.

I always announce here on the forum when I post an update.