plumbing - Vivaldi II

[unbdm]

I will continue my theme of newbie questions... My VII will be my first non super-auto espresso machine, so please excuse my series of basic questions.

1) With the pre-infusion feature, it sounds like I will want the regulator at the machine, or at least easier to access than under the sink, right?

2) Will the regulator that CC sells offer enough control, or will a better regulator be desired?

3) I'm thinking my install will be:
a. "T" off main cold water line
b. on/off valve
c. filtering
d. 15' of flex hose (or whatever length main run requires)
e. on/off valve
f. regulator
g. Espresso machine
Am I missing anything? The regulator will likely be inline with loose flex hose, so to adjust it will require pulling out the espresso machine; any better ideas?

4) Is this John guest flex hose and fittings pretty reliable? I've never looked at these type of parts, but the Neanderthal in me is afraid of push fit plastic fittings over nice wrench turned copper pipe and fittings. Any thoughts on plumbing fittings / tubing would be appreciated.

5) how bad is occasional hard water on the machine? We have a whole house softener (you pretty much have to in our area). My concern is that when our water softener is backflushing itself, it goes to bypass and allows hard water to the house, also, if we ever let the salt (used to backflush the resin in the softener) run out, it will go hard. So there is a possibility of occasional exposure to hard water. I would hate to maintain a separate softener since almost all of the time the water will be soft. I suppose if our whole house system is ever being maintenanced and is down for any length of time I might be glad I had a dedicated softener for the VII.

6. The whole house water softener likely leaves some salt residue in the water. I've never tasted it, and never known anyone that has, but I've heard that is the case. Should I be concerned with this? I tend to think if I can't taste it in the water, I won't tasted it in the espresso.

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

1-2/ You want the regulator as close to the machine as possible & in a position where you can read the gauge & access the adjustment. You could go fancier but the unit CC sells works fine. Mine is located under the counter against the back of the cupboard with a short length of flex hose coming out of it connecting to the stainless V2 line. No need to move the machine to access it but a flashlight is required to read the gauge.

3/ Install sounds good except you might want to add a shut off/tee w/short flex line after the carbon filter so you can bleed air from the filter housing after a change, flush excess salt from softener cartridge(if added) after a change & run some water to test hardness going to the machine. Many of us used the Max Adaptor from CC
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... maxadaptor for the water line take off.

4/ The John Guest stuff works great & simplifies the installation. You can also get Watts fittings from Home Depot which look & work the same but the prices are about the same as the JG from CC.

5/ The only down side to hard water in your machine will be the need to descale the boilers after a period of time but if it only happens every once in awhile it shouldn't be much of an issue. How hard is your water before & after softening? Ideally you want the water around 50ppm (or less) that goes into the machine. Spending $15 on a liquid hardness kit at your local pet/fish store will help you decide if you need to add the small softener cartridge just for the machine. These kits are much more accurate then the strips that come with the machine.

6/ The carbon filter you place inline should remove any residue from your home softener.

[JohnB]

Concerning tasting the salt in your Espresso I did have a problem with this. Could be because I am more sensitive to the softened water having drank only moderately hard well water all my life but I ended up adding some hard(120ppm+) water back into the feed line after the softener cartridge to get a taste I was happy with. This means the water running into my machine is around 80ppm so I may have to deal with descaling the boilers at some point but its a trade off I can live with. If you add a softener cartridge to water that is only moderately hard you can end up with over softened water (0-20ppm) which can affect the taste.

[unbdm]

John, thanks for the continued stream of info.

You're comment regarding over softened water concerns me. I don't honestly remember the unit of measurement used for measuring water hardness that was used, but my little town in Central Texas sources water from a series of wells, and we are all limestone here. I seem to recall a measurement of 25, and that being regarded as extremely hard. The Culligan water system (and the many competitors in the area) take the hardness down to zero. The problem is, I can't impliment a clever solution like you, since the whole house is supplied by the softener.

I'll head for the pet store afterwork, and post again with some data. But I better hold off on ordering, since I might be forced into getting the mini if this is a real problem.

Lastly, I may just get the fittings at home depot instead of CC, since I would have more ready access to spare / additional parts. I need to run by there to look at 20A GFCI outlets anyway, so I'll make that stop today as well.

Thanks,
Barry

[Weska]

It's easy to find online sources of John Guest parts. Some of mine came from brewery supply stores. Parts from that kind of source are available in a larger selection than I've found in Home Depot. But maybe that's just characteristic of the area I shopped in.

Anyhow, the convenience of plumbed in plus the new--variable--pre-infusion that you get only with a VII would incline me to take that choice and deal with the hardness/softness as they arise.

[unbdm]

Thanks for the info Wesca. Good suggestion, I just want to make sure there is a solution to the problem (my wife wont' let me disconnect the whole house softner, and I'm not interested in plumbing from the supply side of the softner to the kitchen).

BTW, are there Home Depot stores in Moscow?

Thanks,
Barry

[unbdm]

It took me an extra day, but I measured my water hardness, the ppm was virtualy zero. Does that suggest that I should buy a mini instead, so I can used bottled water?

I still have not ordered, this issue, and deciding if I should wait for CC to do the pre-infusion mod or take it ASAP... I guess this is a window to not be in a rush, as long as I order before the price increase.

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

It took me an extra day, but I measured my water hardness, the ppm was virtualy zero. Does that suggest that I should buy a mini instead, so I can used bottled water?

I still have not ordered, this issue, and deciding if I should wait for CC to do the pre-infusion mod or take it ASAP... I guess this is a window to not be in a rush, as long as I order before the price increase.

Thanks,
Barry

Isn't there some kind of adjustment on your softener system to modify the softness. Nothing in your house requires water that soft so if you could get it up into the 25-50ppm range you'd be fine. I think you would be much happier with the S1V2 in the long run.

[unbdm]

I flipped throught the manual, I believe it's all or nothing. I can adjust how many gallons go through the resin before it backflushes, but that is just more of a case of the water slowly becoming harder until the resin has been backflushed. So is my water no good for espresso?

Well, I got my proscale 600 Luxe scale in the mail just now (thanks to an ebay link in another thread), and have installed my 20A circuit.... I'm $35 commited at this point...

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

Hopefully you will get some feedback from others using a whole house softener. I wouldn't say your water is no good for Espresso, only that its not ideal. Do you currently drink your softened water or have spring water for drinking? I'm sure others are using water that soft but it didn't work for me.

[unbdm]

John Thanks for your continued help.

Yes, we drink the softened tap water. Of course I may never be able to distinguish the impact of the soft water on the espresso, but then again, I might, and I hate the thought of buying the wrong machine for my situation. Maybe that is another good reason to wait on the Duetto... but oh how I don't want to wait...

Maybe I should consider the mini instead of the VII... any further comments, or suggestions of possible sources of information regarding the impact of softw water on espresso quality would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Barry

[JohnB]

You might get a little more feedback if you start a new thread specifically about softened water issues. If you are used to drinking it I doubt you will have a problem. When I posted that I was noticing a saltiness in my Espressos no one else was having the problem so its most likely just my sensitivity. Worst case scenario you could always run a 3/8" flex line from your hard water line to the machine feed line if it was an issue.

[Weska]

No Home Depot in Moscow. I checked one on a visit to Baltimore not long ago. What we have is OBI, a German hardware hypermarket along similar lines, but they don't have John Guest fittings. I did find a tiny, hole-in-the-wall source in Moscow, however, and bought almost all the pieces here.

To speak to the issues, and I don't know what I'm talking about first hand, there are many references to a calcite cartridge that adds some salts back to excessively soft water. You could put one of these in the line to the Vivaldi, and of course keep replacing it periodically in order to have water only slightly hard.

If the supersoft water is OK, just stop buying replacement cartridges and go bareback.

Doing some searches on "calcite" here, on other coffee forums and coffee retailers should put you on the track.

[unbdm]

Thanks for the suggestions John and Weska. I think I'm tired of this three week old research project, I'm taking the weekend off... I think... Maybe driving to the local coffee shop isn't that bad afterall.

Best Regards,
Barry

[JohnB]

You should be an Espresso water expert after all the info you picked up from the thread on H-B. Hopefully we will be hearing about your new S1V2 soon.

[unbdm]

Thanks John... I've learned enough about water to know that I don't know much about water... but I'm pretty close to having enough confidence buy a plumb in espresso machine.

I think the big price jack up is at the end of the week... I'm about out of time... I'm waiting on new boards anyway, so no harm, other than the hair I pulled out.

Take care,
Barry

[Niko]

I think the big price jack up is at the end of the week... I'm about out of time... I'm waiting on new boards anyway, so no harm, other than the hair I pulled out.

New higher prices are coming? :?

[JohnB]

New higher prices are coming? :?

Chris said both machines will see a price hike effective July 1.

[RobertK]

unbdm,

I don't have quite the same situation as you but I feel your pain. I recently bought a Mini and returned it for a V2 after realizing how much easier a plumbed-in machine would be in the long run (but not in the short run, in my case). The V2 came with some test strips which showed my water was too hard to hook it up, which led me on a month-long saga to get my water straightened out. My new V2 has been sitting on the counter for about 3 weeks now and I still haven't used it.

I received the same good advice here as you about the test kits, but the water softener guy who came out to my house last week recommended I get a Hach 5B hardness test kit (available from hach.com or possibly a local water service company), which I felt was more reliable than the aquarium test kits. (Note - I am an avid aquarist and am very familiar and comfortable with aquarium test kits.) Also, I learned that there are several different measures of hardness, and the different aquarium test kits don't all use the same units of measurement, which makes comparison of results with other people or water sources difficult. Anyway, I got the Hach kit and tested every hot and cold water faucet in my house and found out that the "whole house" water softener sent soft water to every faucet except the cold water in the kitchen, which is of course where the Vivaldi needed to go. Apparently this is not uncommon. Consequently I've been dealing with getting a separate water treatment system for my kitchen.

So, my advice to you is to get a good test kit and test hot and cold faucets in at least a few different parts of your house, if you haven't done so already.

Good luck! Hopefully we'll both be sipping some tasty espresso soon.

Robert