As I'm waiting on my S1, I find myself wondering if my 4-stage RO filter is going to be adequate. Reading about the problems that hard water can cause, I really don't want to screw up a nice new machine with the notoriously hard Las Vegas water.
Anyone with any sense has a water softener in their home here. Unfortunately, the cold-side of the kitchen sink is the only place in the entire house that is NOT behind the water softener - something to do with dietary considerations due to the salt used in recharging the exchange resins. And of course my RO filter is under the kitchen sink with the hard city water as its source.
My understanding is that softening reduces mineral content (calcium, magnesium, measured in grains of hardness), and RO takes out dissolved solids (phosphates, nitrates, heavy metals, measured as Total Dissolved Solids) after a carbon block removes chlorine and odors. Is an RO filter adequate to protect the S1? Should I consider adding a softening stage to the filtration I already have working(sediment>carbon>RO>carbon)?
Anyone in Phoenix looking at this that has anything to suggest? The cities further down the Colorado River may be the only ones with harder water than Vegas. Any input would be appreciated.
Steve
Hard water, soft water, RO filter, other??
I only know what I have seen on other sites. For example check this link from Chris Coffee (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... citefilter):
10" Calcite Carbon Filter 10 Micron
This 10-micron Calcite Carbon filter is a generic 10". Simply put it will fit any standard 10" filter housing. Don't make the mistake of buying a filter system that locks you into a specific brand of filter. Most name brand filters lock you into their replacement cartridges, because they are the only ones that will fit the housing. Espresso machine manufacturers recommend this 10-micron Calcite Carbon filter for those of you who are using an R.O. system to remove hardness from your water. This filter will add back in trace amounts of minerals to your water to prevent leaching of your copper boiler over time.
RO systems are removing a lot of stuff based upon size (it is osmotically driven filtration). A water softener is an ion exchange system that removes salts based upon charge. You want a carbon filter on any type of system that you may have.
An easy solution would be to use the water softener system from Chris connected directly to your city water under the sink, before the RO system.
10" Calcite Carbon Filter 10 Micron
This 10-micron Calcite Carbon filter is a generic 10". Simply put it will fit any standard 10" filter housing. Don't make the mistake of buying a filter system that locks you into a specific brand of filter. Most name brand filters lock you into their replacement cartridges, because they are the only ones that will fit the housing. Espresso machine manufacturers recommend this 10-micron Calcite Carbon filter for those of you who are using an R.O. system to remove hardness from your water. This filter will add back in trace amounts of minerals to your water to prevent leaching of your copper boiler over time.
RO systems are removing a lot of stuff based upon size (it is osmotically driven filtration). A water softener is an ion exchange system that removes salts based upon charge. You want a carbon filter on any type of system that you may have.
An easy solution would be to use the water softener system from Chris connected directly to your city water under the sink, before the RO system.
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Weska
Usually, RO water is said to be not the best choice for espresso quality. It is comparable to distilled water and overextracts. That is, it is so ready to take on solubles, since it has none of its own, that it pulls an undesireable flavor profile from coffee. Hence, the calcite filter to add some hardness back and tone down the extraction.
This is all hearsay to me. I can't confirm anything of the kind because I've never had access to RO water.
Only on the Chris Coffee website have I seen copper leaching mentioned as a potential problem, which is not to say that it isn't one. However, most of the water information around the internet deals with the disadvantages for flavor.
This is all hearsay to me. I can't confirm anything of the kind because I've never had access to RO water.
Only on the Chris Coffee website have I seen copper leaching mentioned as a potential problem, which is not to say that it isn't one. However, most of the water information around the internet deals with the disadvantages for flavor.
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4vDesmo
So copper leaching would only be a problem with copper pipe or a copper boiler. Are the S1 boilers copper?
And the calcite filter mentioned I've seen someone on this forum complaining about the taste & fizziness that it added. There is a system sold by Spectrapure that is coffee-specific; it has a remineralization stage that may or may not be similar to what Chris' is offering with the calcite cartridge. See it at http://www.spectrapure.com/Coffee_lover_systems.htm
Obviously any plumbing can have scaling problems with very hard water. I'm just not sure if the RO is giving me some benefit that might reduce scaling, or if that is strictly a benefit from softening.
And the calcite filter mentioned I've seen someone on this forum complaining about the taste & fizziness that it added. There is a system sold by Spectrapure that is coffee-specific; it has a remineralization stage that may or may not be similar to what Chris' is offering with the calcite cartridge. See it at http://www.spectrapure.com/Coffee_lover_systems.htm
Obviously any plumbing can have scaling problems with very hard water. I'm just not sure if the RO is giving me some benefit that might reduce scaling, or if that is strictly a benefit from softening.
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Weska
My impression--and you should confirm this from expert sources because I'm trying to give you just a quick summary of what I casually gleaned from those sources--is that the benefits to the machinery are derived exclusively from softening.
If you extract from the incoming water all those chemicals that contribute to the kind of scale that can build up on the inside of your espresso machine (and those chemicals are mostly salts of calcium and, to a lesser extent, magnesium, therefore called familiarly "limescale"), then your machine will be scale-free and never need de-scaling.
To do that you can use the typical ion-exchanging systems that replace the wicked calcium and magnesium with good old salt. Salt happily in such low concentrations doesn't matter to taste and stays quite soluble and forms no scale in your machine. So far, so good. But the ion-exchanging softeners do not remove all of the bad stuff and lose their ability to remove it as more calcium- and magnesium-laden water passes through them. The salt ready to replace those wicked elements is leached away more and more.
Enter the RO systems which provide a different kind of protection. Those wicked molecules are too big to make it through the osmotic membrane into your supply line (I think, I'm getting vaguer on the details through here) so that virtually 100% of them are held back. What's better is that they are held back all the time for the life of the RO filter. There's no tapering off in effectiveness when the filter is properly maintained.
"Great! Gimme!" you are tempted to shout. But the RO filter, as mentioned before, might be too much of a good thing. With no solubles of the wicked kind too much is pulled from the coffee with bad consequences for its taste. Then there is the copper leaching issue. Stands to reason if that water is so pure, it will be hunting around for things to dissolve.
So water softening is a trade-off. Opting for an RO level of purity and absolute freedom from thinking about scaling has--according to many--a cost in the negative effects on the espresso and copper leaching.
Opting for an ion-exchanging softener which can only moderate scaling but not eliminate it, and which does so on a continually falling basis as the salt is exhausted may be nicer for the coffee but will mean somewhere down the line that scaling may have to be undertaken. Adding hardness after the RO means the same thing.
How hard is it to de-scale? Don't know. Haven't been there or done that. However, my choice has been to use conventional sofening and wait for trouble to manifest itself. I'm pretty sure that a citric acid bath with enough tilting of the Vivaldi in all directions to make sure that the water level with citric rises above the usual water lever and removes the scale at the usual level water line will take care of it. A bunch of flushing or, at worst, undoing the drain plug for the steam boiler (which luckily Vivaldis have).
For myself, I refuse to worry. Since you have RO in place, you can easily experiment, once dialed in, with a calcite filter or equivalent to see whether the flavor difference is worth it to you.
Well, this is a long-winded way to reassure you. Your RO system is more than adequate to protect your machine. Less protection is probably what most of us have, either intentionally or by default. Wish you well with your encounter with the Vivaldi.
If you extract from the incoming water all those chemicals that contribute to the kind of scale that can build up on the inside of your espresso machine (and those chemicals are mostly salts of calcium and, to a lesser extent, magnesium, therefore called familiarly "limescale"), then your machine will be scale-free and never need de-scaling.
To do that you can use the typical ion-exchanging systems that replace the wicked calcium and magnesium with good old salt. Salt happily in such low concentrations doesn't matter to taste and stays quite soluble and forms no scale in your machine. So far, so good. But the ion-exchanging softeners do not remove all of the bad stuff and lose their ability to remove it as more calcium- and magnesium-laden water passes through them. The salt ready to replace those wicked elements is leached away more and more.
Enter the RO systems which provide a different kind of protection. Those wicked molecules are too big to make it through the osmotic membrane into your supply line (I think, I'm getting vaguer on the details through here) so that virtually 100% of them are held back. What's better is that they are held back all the time for the life of the RO filter. There's no tapering off in effectiveness when the filter is properly maintained.
"Great! Gimme!" you are tempted to shout. But the RO filter, as mentioned before, might be too much of a good thing. With no solubles of the wicked kind too much is pulled from the coffee with bad consequences for its taste. Then there is the copper leaching issue. Stands to reason if that water is so pure, it will be hunting around for things to dissolve.
So water softening is a trade-off. Opting for an RO level of purity and absolute freedom from thinking about scaling has--according to many--a cost in the negative effects on the espresso and copper leaching.
Opting for an ion-exchanging softener which can only moderate scaling but not eliminate it, and which does so on a continually falling basis as the salt is exhausted may be nicer for the coffee but will mean somewhere down the line that scaling may have to be undertaken. Adding hardness after the RO means the same thing.
How hard is it to de-scale? Don't know. Haven't been there or done that. However, my choice has been to use conventional sofening and wait for trouble to manifest itself. I'm pretty sure that a citric acid bath with enough tilting of the Vivaldi in all directions to make sure that the water level with citric rises above the usual water lever and removes the scale at the usual level water line will take care of it. A bunch of flushing or, at worst, undoing the drain plug for the steam boiler (which luckily Vivaldis have).
For myself, I refuse to worry. Since you have RO in place, you can easily experiment, once dialed in, with a calcite filter or equivalent to see whether the flavor difference is worth it to you.
Well, this is a long-winded way to reassure you. Your RO system is more than adequate to protect your machine. Less protection is probably what most of us have, either intentionally or by default. Wish you well with your encounter with the Vivaldi.
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Barry
As was stated, RO water contains virtually no solids. The RO filtering process uses a mesh substrate that is so small, it removes virtually every disolved solid. You will have no scale using RO water. That is why Charbucks uses RO water in most of their operations. A debate does exist about the taste of RO water. I am familiar with the water in Las Vegas which may be the hardest I have ever seen. I don't believe an under the counter softner is viable given the fact that you would need to recharge the resin constantly. RO is probably your best bet.
Regards,
Barry
Regards,
Barry
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Zzyzx
When I lived in Las Vegas, I had both a soft water conditioner & RO system. I can say the soft water system is a must in Las Vegas, the calcium content coming from Lake Mead will destroy everything it comes in contact with. I thought the RO system would be great too, but leeched virtually everything out of my water, it went from 550 ppm before to 10 ppm after the RO was installed. The taste of the water was bad & acidic, so I stopped using the RO .
When I moved to Austin, I just had the soft water system installed & the under mount sink filter, it leaves in enough dissolved solids to keep the water and coffee tasting great.
When I moved to Austin, I just had the soft water system installed & the under mount sink filter, it leaves in enough dissolved solids to keep the water and coffee tasting great.
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4vDesmo
I did a pseudo-check of the post RO water and non RO water (using the test strips Chris' sent). The RO definitely removes a huge portion, and some hardness still remains, but it isn't zero. Maybe my RO membrane is getting old. I didn't check pH, but I'm going to.
Someone on this forum had an unfiltered mix being fed in after the filter to (I suppose) give the water a little balance. Maybe I'll try that at some point.
Someone on this forum had an unfiltered mix being fed in after the filter to (I suppose) give the water a little balance. Maybe I'll try that at some point.
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Barry
A water softner AFTER a RO system is a waste of money. A fully functional RO system will remove virtually all of the calcium and magnesium. The only way that calcium and magneisum will make it through the membrane is if it needs to be replaced. I would encourage you to read the water FAQ on coffeegeek.com. It goes into great detail on all of the myths, rumours and facts.
And many agree that RO water tastes like crap. In Vegas, however, you have a real challenge on your hands.
And many agree that RO water tastes like crap. In Vegas, however, you have a real challenge on your hands.
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kaiwiki
plumbing
I'm excited and awaiting my new VII. Does anyone have a plumbing diagram. Here in Hawaii I don't think a softner is necessary but a filter for mineral and chlorine would be a minimal. I was also was reading a few replys to post and seem like a shut of valves makes thing a little more convienent.
Please if someone can help!
Please if someone can help!
I don't have a diagram but you are correct that at least a carbon filter should be used.
I would do the following:
Connector at the cold faucet under your sink to a John Guest female fitting.
Shutoff valve at the source
John Guest tubing to a 10" carbon filter cartridge
John Guest "T" after the cartridge with shutoff valves on the 2 output sides of the "T". The horizontal output goes to your pressure regulator and guage and then to the Vivaldi. The output that points down is for flushing the new cartridge and for testing your water if you need to.
Put a final shutoff valve at the end of the John Guest tubing as it attaches to the braided hose from the Vivaldi.
You will need the following parts:
the brass supply to John Guest fitting
4 John Guest shutoff valves
1 John Guest "T"
pressure regulator and guage
10" filter housing
10" carbon filter cartridge
You can buy these from Chris or order them generically. If you search for postings from me you will find an address and part numbers to get these things very reasonably (there may be better sources but I have had great luck with the one I've used and others have also used them).
Take care and best of luck,
Mark
I would do the following:
Connector at the cold faucet under your sink to a John Guest female fitting.
Shutoff valve at the source
John Guest tubing to a 10" carbon filter cartridge
John Guest "T" after the cartridge with shutoff valves on the 2 output sides of the "T". The horizontal output goes to your pressure regulator and guage and then to the Vivaldi. The output that points down is for flushing the new cartridge and for testing your water if you need to.
Put a final shutoff valve at the end of the John Guest tubing as it attaches to the braided hose from the Vivaldi.
You will need the following parts:
the brass supply to John Guest fitting
4 John Guest shutoff valves
1 John Guest "T"
pressure regulator and guage
10" filter housing
10" carbon filter cartridge
You can buy these from Chris or order them generically. If you search for postings from me you will find an address and part numbers to get these things very reasonably (there may be better sources but I have had great luck with the one I've used and others have also used them).
Take care and best of luck,
Mark
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kaiwiki
mark thanks
i have a designated water source to my ice maker/water dispenser on my refrig. Do you think I'll have any problems sourcing from this supply?
The only issue with the ice maker/water from your frig is the size of the line. Most ice makers use small lines and the Vivaldi comes with a 3/8" input line. Other people have posted asking if using a small line can starve the Vivaldi; I have no experience as my machine is plumbed with 3/8" line all the way.
If the supply provides adequate water volume you can certainly use it. You still want a filter somewhere in the line before the Vivaldi; if you have a carbon filter on the lne to your ice maker and take the Vivaldi feed after that filter you don't need a second one. You do still want to have the pressure regulator and the various valves so that you can shut off the water and test it if needed.
Take care,
Mark
If the supply provides adequate water volume you can certainly use it. You still want a filter somewhere in the line before the Vivaldi; if you have a carbon filter on the lne to your ice maker and take the Vivaldi feed after that filter you don't need a second one. You do still want to have the pressure regulator and the various valves so that you can shut off the water and test it if needed.
Take care,
Mark
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chas
- Vivaldi Dreamer
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Mark, you are correct. Chris recommends 3/8". I upgraded from 1/4" to 3/8" when I got my S1. Others didn't and note no problems using 1/4". However, most of the ice tray installations I have seen use copper line smaller than 1/4". I am pretty sure anything less that 1/4" would starve an S1.
I don't know if newer houses are now using plastic line for ice maker runs or not. If so perhaps they are using larger lines. I think the main reason they used smaller lines for copper installation is so they can coil it several times behind the fridge. This allows the fexibility required to be able to roll the fridge away from the wall for cleaning.
I don't know if newer houses are now using plastic line for ice maker runs or not. If so perhaps they are using larger lines. I think the main reason they used smaller lines for copper installation is so they can coil it several times behind the fridge. This allows the fexibility required to be able to roll the fridge away from the wall for cleaning.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
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Niko
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kaiwiki
thanks again
yes source is a 1/2 copper coming into my kitchen. First i'll do a shut off and then install a filter before using a three way supply valve, one to the ice maker and one to the VII. why do i need a pressure regulator?
i already have one of those 10" whole house filter. I'll use a carbon .5 micron drinking water filter in its housing. do you think that would be sufficient for a filter?
so many question about plumbing.
i already have one of those 10" whole house filter. I'll use a carbon .5 micron drinking water filter in its housing. do you think that would be sufficient for a filter?
so many question about plumbing.