The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

So over the last couple days I've noticed that when I am done pulling a shot there is water on top of the puck when I pull out the PF. It's not alot, more like a thin layer of coffee slurry, but I've only started seeing this recently. Around the same time I noticed that during the shot there may be a few spots where I get a few drips of water down the outside of the PF. I'm making sure to wipe the PF rim before seating it in the machine.

I have the brush that came with the machine that I use for scrubbing the bottom of the group, but I don't know how well it cleans the gasket. I did try to feel around on the gasket and felt a little coffee so I'm thinking that might be the issue. Anyone have a better solution for cleaning the gasket than using the wire brush that came with the Mini? I've seen these circular brushes that are supposed to be used in the same motion you use for locking in the PF, but I don't know how well they work.

While the grounds on the gasket could explain the drips on the outside of the PF, I'm at a loss for the wetter puck. Pressure looks to be right at 10 when brewing, could grind be to fine?

Get yourself a Pällo Coffeetool for the gasket. The wet puck is normal.

JeffPersson wrote:So over the last couple days I've noticed that when I am done pulling a shot there is water on top of the puck when I pull out the PF. It's not alot, more like a thin layer of coffee slurry, but I've only started seeing this recently. Around the same time I noticed that during the shot there may be a few spots where I get a few drips of water down the outside of the PF. I'm making sure to wipe the PF rim before seating it in the machine.

The water on the puck is normal and not related to the grouphead cleanliness. Wet pucks usually happen when you get a new batch of coffee and/or recalibrate the grinder finer. Wet pucks are not necessarily an indication of a bad tasting shot either.

JeffPersson wrote: I have the brush that came with the machine that I use for scrubbing the bottom of the group, but I don't know how well it cleans the gasket. I did try to feel around on the gasket and felt a little coffee so I'm thinking that might be the issue. Anyone have a better solution for cleaning the gasket than using the wire brush that came with the Mini? I've seen these circular brushes that are supposed to be used in the same motion you use for locking in the PF, but I don't know how well they work.

Step 1: Throw away the BBQ brush that came with the machine. It`ll do more harm than good.

Step 2: Remove the screw, screens and diffuser.

Step 3: Wipe around inside the group and gasket area with gentle microfibre cloth to remove any stray grounds.

Step 4: Soak the screens and diffuser overnight in JoeGlo.

Step 5: Rinse and reassemble.

6. Clean around the screen (gasket) with the Coffeetool after each 2-3 shots. I do the other once a week.

txrpls wrote:6. Clean around the screen (gasket) with the Coffeetool after each 2-3 shots. I do the other once a week.

I suppose everyone has their own cleaning routine...but to be honest, I never use a brush. I just do the swap the diffuser and screens once a week.

Enough coffee oil bakes on the sides of the diffuser that it should be removed properly. The Paolo brush bristles are just crap. Too stiff, too few bristles, and no detergent to cut the oils and do any good at all. The Coffeetool looks a bit better, but I think removal of the diffuser to give full access is the only way to do a proper job.

Endo wrote: I suppose everyone has their own cleaning routine...but to be honest, I never use a brush. I just do the swap the diffuser and screens once a week.

Enough coffee oil bakes on the sides of the diffuser that it should be removed properly. The Paolo brush bristles are just crap. Too stiff, too few bristles, and no detergent to cut the oils and do any good at all. The Coffeetool looks a bit better, but I think removal of the diffuser to give full access is the only way to do a proper job.

Well, I have to disagree. It does remove the left over grounds in the grooves. The oil will still be there either way until you do the weekly cleaning. I also wipe the filter screen after every shot. I've been doing the same for the last ten years on several different machines. I don't know which coffeetool you are referring to but I use the Pallo coffeetool show here: http://www.espressoparts.com/PALLO_CT-BLACK

txrpls wrote: I don't know which coffeetool you are referring to but I use the Pallo coffeetool show here: http://www.espressoparts.com/PALLO_CT-BLACK

I have the Paolo tool you showed too. It does nothing except srape the gasket a bit. The bristles don't bend at all so it can't get on the backside of the grouphead lip, where the grounds can spill over and collect. You can only get to that by removing the diffuser and using a finger wrapped in the cloth.

I use a q-tip moistened with a little hot water

Q-tips work for me as well!

When I heard "coffeetool" I first thought you were referring to one of these fancy toilet brushes from Cafelat:

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Cafela ... 100802.htm

But it seems they only make a 58mm version (though I suspect it might be an easy modification to fit our 53mm).

Either way, Paolo, Cafelat, Q-tip? Why bother? Rather than doing dentistry, isn't it a heck of a lot easier simply to loosen one screw then wipe the area properly with a nearby cloth? (I must be missing something here).

txrpls wrote:

Endo wrote:[...]The Paolo brush bristles are just crap. Too stiff, too few bristles, and no detergent to cut the oils and do any good at all.[...]

Well, I have to disagree. It does remove the left over grounds in the grooves. The oil will still be there either way until you do the weekly cleaning. I also wipe the filter screen after every shot. I've been doing the same for the last ten years on several different machines. I don't know which coffeetool you are referring to but I use the Pallo coffeetool show here: http://www.espressoparts.com/PALLO_CT-BLACK

+1 on the Pallo CoffeeTool disagreement.

I like it. I like it a lot in fact.

I brush the group screen and the groove while pulling "a double" of water through the group. According to what falls in the small plastic bowl I use )to avoid filling the drip tray too fast), it does a pretty good job: it ensures that old coffee doesn't cook on the screen until my next session. It doesn't reach the group tabs but coffee normally doesn't end there and if it does, I don't really care (I only care about what is inside the group gasket. It gets removed when I do my week-end back-flush (portafilter wiggle).

The bristles are stiff and this is a quality to me: after ~2 years of daily use, it is still in good shape.

Granted, it doesn't remove oils, but no other brush does.

IMHO, a highly recommended tool for the home barista.

Hey I just pulled the screens off and was going to put the clean set in, but I forgot how they go in. Larger screen is on top, but are they flipped so the edge curves up for both or does the large one on top curve down while the smaller one on the bottom curves up?

Endo wrote: Either way, Paolo, Cafelat, Q-tip? Why bother? Rather than doing dentistry, isn't it a heck of a lot easier simply to loosen one screw then wipe the area properly with a nearby cloth? (I must be missing something here).

Yep, you're missing something. I can clean the gasket area in about 5 seconds which i do every 2-3 shots. The brush bristles are not going to damage anything, stick up in in there with some pressure. It's a group head not a piece a crystal.

JeffPersson wrote:Hey I just pulled the screens off and was going to put the clean set in, but I forgot how they go in. Larger screen is on top, but are they flipped so the edge curves up for both or does the large one on top curve down while the smaller one on the bottom curves up?

Larger on top, curved edge for both up.

Louis wrote:I brush the group screen and the groove while pulling "a double" of water through the group. According to what falls in the small plastic bowl I use )to avoid filling the drip tray too fast), it does a pretty good job: it ensures that old coffee doesn't cook on the screen until my next session. It doesn't reach the group tabs but coffee normally doesn't end there and if it does, I don't really care (I only care about what is inside the group gasket. It gets removed when I do my week-end back-flush (portafilter wiggle).

-1

You might want to watch some of the pro baristas. A simple blank water shot followed by a quick cloth wipe of the screens is much more effective (and quicker) at cleaning the screens of grounds AND removing oils. It also serves double purpose for drying the PF basket, cups, etc. (I never once needed to clean the gasket since I properly wipe the basket rim after tamping).

Can you imagine the laughing if a WBC contestant pulled out a Paolo tool and started doing a "toothbrush job" on the grouphead between shots while the judges waited for their drinks.

Endo wrote:Can you imagine the laughing if a WBC contestant pulled out a Paolo tool and started doing a "toothbrush job" on the grouphead between shots while the judges waited for their drinks.

Endo, sure, but I don't think any WBC contestant usually have a 12-24h waiting period between two shots, something I do daily.

If I follow this reasoning, I would rather compare my quick Pällo brush (at the end of each of my session) with a detergent backflush from pros (at the end of each of their session).

I simple wipe the screen with a microfiber cloth... It's faster and more effective than the Pallo.

I'm gonna get ripped a new one but... I brush the screen, gasket, crevice in the group AND
wipe the screen and the group crevice.

I used to daily clean the bottomless PF, remove the PF spring and wipe it and the groove altho I don't do that anymore.

OCD? :-)

Nope normal. Maybe a little on the spring. To the wipe only group I would pose the following: How do you get the grounds out of the crevice between the brass diffuser and the group head? I always get a small amount of grounds every time I brush that wiping cannot possibly get without removing the screens and the diffuser.

@ Endo: I was taught to do this by a professional barista who has a couple of trophies to prove it. Bottom line I'll do it my way you do it yours.

txrpls wrote:Nope normal. Maybe a little on the spring. To the wipe only group I would pose the following: How do you get the grounds out of the crevice between the brass diffuser and the group head? I always get a small amount of grounds every time I brush that wiping cannot possibly get without removing the screens and the diffuser.

Perhaps you updose beyond the usual 16g, or perhaps leave grounds on the rim when doing prep, but for me, my gasket and surrounding grouphead insides are very clean (no wipe required). The coffee on my machine stays inside the basket during shots as it should....no?

Of course you can clean, brush, wipe, backflush to you hearts content. It won't hurt of course, but I think any more than a screen and diffuser swap once a week is a waste of time and undetectable by anyone (except perhaps by some professional cuppers).

Have you considered the opposite as well? I've seen just as many Italian cafes where they would never THINK of cleaning their machine....ever. They consider the coffee mess, dried milk wand, etc to add to the cafe decor and one guy even told me it's what provides the special "unique" taste. I smiled and left quickly before he offered me one.

altho the majority of the grind is in the basket and a wipe of the screen will get rid of what's on the
outside of the screen but there's some stuck in between the screens and diffuser.

Assuming everyone programs the 2cups button for a short 2oz flush... at least on my machine, a little
grind still comes out after 2 such flushes. I flush/brush/wipe the screen in between shots,
only wiping the group crevices (where the PF ears go) when done for the day.

And if you either do the PF wiggle or use a brush while flushing, that may explain how grind gets on the group crevices?

Flushing w/out PF wiggle or brush may reduce that. I'll try that next time and see what happens...

The double screen is a real trap for the grounds. Can you clean the grounds trapped betwwen the 2 screens around the border using a pallo? I don't know how.

expy98 wrote:altho the majority of the grind is in the basket and a wipe of the screen will get rid of what's on the
outside of the screen but there's some stuck in between the screens and diffuser.

oton wrote:The double screen is a real trap for the grounds. Can you clean the grounds trapped betwwen the 2 screens around the border using a pallo? I don't know how.

That is exactly what the dual screens are meant to do. Prevent grounds from going back into the machine. And as you point out, the reason why the Paolo tool is useless.

They include 2 set of screens and a fancy tool specifically to ease and promote the frequent removal of the screens in a commercial environment (when there is no time to backflush). Note: no backflushing basket is included or mentioned in the instructions. In fact, backflushing just makes things worse by forcing those same trapped grounds back INTO the 3-way valve. (Only backflush AFTER swapping screens....if you plan on doing it at all).

If you really can't kick your cleanliness OCD, then swap the screens every day.

Dual screens with an easy one bolt removal is a unique feature of the Vivaldi. Trust the designers and use it as they intended it to be used (except the BBQ brush of course). No special cleaning tools are required!

My machine is over 3 years old and I never had a single issue.

oton wrote:The double screen is a real trap for the grounds. Can you clean the grounds trapped betwwen the 2 screens around the border using a pallo? I don't know how.

Nobody said that we are cleaning the grounds between the screens. the issue is the grounds between the diffuser and the group head. I fail to see how a simple wiping of the screens will solve that issue. I still brush after I remove the screens and diffuser on my weekly cleaning and I still get a small amount of grounds. You guys do it your way I'll do it mine. I fail to see why you are so adamant against the brush.

Endo wrote: Perhaps you updose beyond the usual 16g, or perhaps leave grounds on the rim when doing prep, but for me, my gasket and surrounding grouphead insides are very clean (no wipe required). The coffee on my machine stays inside the basket during shots as it should....no?

I prefer to think of it as the correct dose for my setup. I had the barista that I mentioned earlier come to my house for training. While I was previously doing 16.5 grams (by weight) and getting good coffee. I am now getting great coffee after he did some measuring with his refractometer and the VST software methodology. It turned out that I needed 18.0 grams to get in the correct range on the chart. While I am not a coffee by the numbers guy, the taste difference was great improvement. I am now knocking out great expresso.

Of course you can clean, brush, wipe, backflush to you hearts content. It won't hurt of course, but I think any more than a screen and diffuser swap once a week is a waste of time and undetectable by anyone (except perhaps by some professional cuppers).

Totally subjective statement. I prefer not to leave grounds in the head to "roast" roast for hours at a time.

Have you considered the opposite as well? I've seen just as many Italian cafes where they would never THINK of cleaning their machine....ever. They consider the coffee mess, dried milk wand, etc to add to the cafe decor and one guy even told me it's what provides the special "unique" taste. I smiled and left quickly before he offered me one.

And that my friend is why I brush between every two to three shots or when I am done. To quote a member I respect "It's the coffee, stupid."

I think we exhausted the brush talk. What you do to clean, of course, is totally up to you. Better to be on the "too much" side than "too little".

txrpls wrote: I had the barista that I mentioned earlier come to my house for training. While I was previously doing 16.5 grams (by weight) and getting good coffee. I am now getting great coffee after he did some measuring with his refractometer and the VST software methodology. It turned out that I needed 18.0 grams to get in the correct range on the chart. While I am not a coffee by the numbers guy, the taste difference was great improvement. I am now knocking out great expresso.

That's interesting. I don't think I've heard of anyone checking brew ratios on the Vivaldi before.

I must admit I've been stuck around the 16g mark for a while after determining this to be optimal for most blends I tried. I had started on the higher side. It may be time to revisit the 18g territory. Are you using the double basket or triple?

I'm sure it is a double, came stock with the machine. My friend also told me he changes his VST baskets monthly, but he has a real coffee bar. I would love to get a VST/Strada basket. Looks like I'm going to have to get a GS3 if I want those baskets. Think the wife would buy that?

txrpls wrote: I would love to get a VST/Strada basket.

On a scale of 0 to 10, basket taste differences would rank about 0.1, and coffee about 10.0.

Time to read my signature again .

I have the triple and the double baskets for my GS/3 and I'd give the improvement in the cup more than 0.1 as it is noticeable and I doubt my palate is sensitive enough to notice a 0.1 improvement! I think I actually prefer the triple basket with 18g and lots of head room.

My guy said that he did some testing a while back and stated that there was considerable variation in "normal" baskets. He likes to keep every variable consistent as possible and I understand this in a commercial environment. As I said earlier I'm not a by the numbers guy (I am "a___" retentive according to the wife) although the refractometer test did get my taste buds attention.

txrpls wrote:I'm sure it is a double, came stock with the machine. My friend also told me he changes his VST baskets monthly, but he has a real coffee bar. I would love to get a VST/Strada basket. Looks like I'm going to have to get a GS3 if I want those baskets. Think the wife would buy that?

I have the triple and the double "laser cut" baskets for my GS/3 and I'd give the improvement in the cup more than 0.1 as it is noticeable and I doubt my palate is sensitive enough to notice a 0.1 improvement! I think I actually prefer the triple basket with 18g and lots of head room.

The "laser" cut baskets will have to wait until after I my latest shipment magnetically treated water.

Endo wrote:The "laser" cut baskets will have to wait until after I my latest shipment magnetically treated water.

And where do you get that?

Endo wrote:The "laser" cut baskets will have to wait until after I my latest shipment magnetically treated water.

Are those the magnets you clamp around the John Guest tubing to magically soften the water?

chas wrote:

Endo wrote:The "laser" cut baskets will have to wait until after I my latest shipment magnetically treated water.

Are those the magnets you clamp around the John Guest tubing to magically soften the water?

I've already tried this and the resulting water polarization negatively impacted the end result in the cup.