The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

I've noticed recently I get clear water dripping when I use my bottomless portafilter in my mini. Usually, it seems to drip towards the back. I actually looks like it's coming between the basket and the portafilter, though that seems unlikely. Otherwise, the shots look good - although perhaps a little long, like 50 seconds. But the clear water starts dripping about 15 seconds into the shot. I've seen this issue discussed on other sites about it happening on other machines, but I haven't seen any resolution of it. I'm wondering if this is a common problem with the bottomless portafilter and the triple basket on Vivaldis.

Changed the gasket lately?

richardcoffee wrote: I've seen this issue discussed on other sites about it happening on other machines, but I haven't seen any resolution of it.

No resolution? What sites are you reading?

The water has only 2 paths it can take out the grouphead: Out the basket holes (as a normal shot) or past the gasket (as a leak).

The PF does not seal anything. It simply wedges the basket forcefully against the grouphead gasket.

So, the gasket is only 3 months old - it seemed unlikely that it was the gasket. And, on homebarista.com and coffeegeek, I have seen folks saying they change the gasket and shortly they have the problem again. But, since you say so, I'll change the gasket. Is it hard to do?

okay - I changed the gasket. There was quite a bit of built-up coffee gunk behind the gasket and it had a slight groove in it. The new gasket makes a big difference in how far the handle turns to the right when I put it in - that is, it doesn't turn nearly as far as it used to. I have tried to be very careful about keeping this guy clean - I backflush with water only after every day's use, I take the screens out once every 10 days or so and clean them up good with Joe Glo. Do you suppose I've been cramming the portafilter in too hard? Or, is this evidence that I'm over dosing? I thought I was being careful with that. Btw, I notice the gasket that I took out and the one I replaced it with has 4 notches in the outside edge. Otoh, I have a gasket that I bought separately that does not have those notches. What's up with that?
Anyhow, I'll be interested to see if I still get that leak once the machine heats up later today. I'll let you know.

I've never heard of a gasket with notches. I have 3 gaskets and they are all notchless. The ones I have measure 6.38mm thick.

Your problem may be the non OEM gasket you bought. I've heard there are 2 that will fit, but one is for the S5 and the other is for the S1. They are 1mm different in thickness so I suspect they can cause the issue you describe.

Oh yeah, have some of those notched gaskets too. It have 4 notches, the color isn't deep black like the original S1 gasket (different material), and have a LS logo. Never try it; I'm still using the gasket that came with the S1.

I recently bought some new gaskets from Caffe-Tech in Edmonton (the first Chris Coffee re-retailer in Canada). They are the ones that warned me about the gaskets that "almost" fit.

Can someone measure the thickness of one of the notched gaskets so we can compare?

The notched gasket I removed from my mini was the gasket that came in the machine from Chris'. Likewise, I have 2 replacement gaskets - 1 came with the machine and 1 I ordered from Chris. One of these is notched, the other is not. I don't know which one came with the machine and which one came with a separate order. Anyhow, I can't measure with the same degree of precision as Endo. I'm hampered by only having a ruler with inches on one side and mm on the other. My measurement of the notched and the non-notched comes out the same for both at 6mm. When I lay them side by side on a flat surface, the appear to be the same. If I had to say that one appears ever so slightly thicker than the other I'd say the non-notched gasket appears just a tad thicker.

the spare gasket that came with my S1 has the notches in it. i'm still using the original gasket (without leaks) and it's been just over a year now.

Both gasket that came with my Vivaldi (from CC) were notched. I just replaced the second one with a spare (from CC as well) but this one has no notch.

I doubt that these notches have anything to do with the sealing of the P/F.

The notches wouldn't affect sealing, but I'm thinking they may be an indicator of the gasket used on the S5 rather than the S1. But since many people have them, I suspect not.

Most likely the water was passing over the gasket due to grounds trapped underneath.

My theory is that the notches are there to facilitate the installation. Just a theory.

For the leakage, the symptom described are exactly what I experienced lately and it was because of the gasket being old and hard. There was no trapped coffee involved. Keeping the machine on 24/7 ages the gasket very fast.

True. Could be due to cracks in the gasket.

My gasket lasted about 2 years before small cracks appeared. I flipped mine over after 1 year after a groove developed.

So, I cleaned it all up, put in the new gasket and still have the problem. Interestingly, it's just a few drops of clear water toward the machine side of the portafilter. My guess is, it's the operator. Despite taking extreme care in dosing and tamping, I must be lacking somehow. Still, the shots taste pretty good and if I didn't have a bottomless, I wouldn't even be aware of this. I give up.

Don't give up yet. If it's not the gasket it must be the basket rim. Try another basket (either the single basket or a spare double) and see if it goes away.

Could it be this simple? This morning I tried 2 things: I put a little less coffee in the triple basket and I tightened the portafilter a little more when I put it in the machine. Voila! No more clear water dripping. I'm thinking the root cause was just that I wasn't putting it in tight enough. Thanks for the guidance.

As a rough indicator, PF handle should stick straight out from the machine.

I dared not tell you to try tightening it more...
On my machine, with a new gasket the handle stops around 6:30 and with an old gasket it reaches 5:30 (with the machine facing you).

slo wrote:I dared not tell you to try tightening it more...
On my machine, with a new gasket the handle stops around 6:30 and with an old gasket it reaches 5:30 (with the machine facing you).

Yeah, but that's metric time, since you're in Canada. And, in a different time zone!

HAHA. Yes. Except in Newfoundland.

And in the US, it only goes to the right!

peter wrote:Yeah, but that's metric time, since you're in Canada. And, in a different time zone!

And what would that translate into for the outdated-yet-all-mighty imperial system?
As for the time zone you can always try to torque to 3 o'clock if you want but I am not responsible...

Is that a.m. or p.m.?

Yes it is a sign of gasket needing to be replaced.
Mine usually last more tthen a year. But I noticed they don't enjoy chemical backflush too much - if you do then brew a throwaway shot immediately after you're finished cleaning.

I think a quick update is in order. I said at the beginning, the gasket was only 3 months old - still, since the greater wisdom seemed to be that it must be the gasket, I changed it. I thought that was the answer, but pretty quickly I started to have the same problem. Interestingly, this problem doesn't make the shot bad - it is just clear water slowly dripping at the back of the portafilter - meanwhile, the shot draws very nicely. Over time, I have experimented and have come to the following conclusions - this problem can occur if I don't tightly secure the portafilter. More likely, the problem occurs when I put too much coffee in the basket. So, I discovered if I use the method I see so often on various web sites - that is fill the basket then level it off before tamping, I get maybe 18 grams in the double basket and as much as 25 in the triple. That is too much and it causes this dripping. So, if I am careful to limit the dose to not more than 16 grams in the double and maybe 20 in the triple, I do not have this dripping.

I can see how that might cause a portion of the sealing load to go through the grounds rather than sealing tightly at the the basket edges.

But to be honest, if you're using 18g in the double, dripping is probably the least of your problems.

Endo,
That's a mysterious comment. Do you mean 18 is too much? Of course that's what I discovered. Do you mean something more than that? What's a fella to do? I mean, I'm somewhat new at this. I try to follow instructions. So, nowhere, for example on Home-Barista or Coffee Geek do I see anyone saying do not fill the basket - when you put 14 grams in it will often be below the top of the basket. But, in fact, that's what I have discovered with the Vivaldi. Do you think there's something wrong with my grinder? with my technique? I'm anxious to learn. What have other people experienced? Do you, in fact, fill the basket with 14 grams?

My guess is that Endo is hinting at 18g being too much for our 53mm double baskets, leaving you zero headroom once the puck expands and the puck hits the screen.

My typical dose is 15g, and no, it doesn't fill the basket. I'll give the PF a couple shakes, and that's enough to level/settle the coffee sufficiently. If I see an imprint from the bolt that holds the screen in place in the puck after the shot, I know I've dosed a tad too high.

Thanks Peter, That's helpful. In fact, I just did a double with 15 grams and it was just as you said. Perfect.

peter wrote:My typical dose is 15g, and no, it doesn't fill the basket. I'll give the PF a couple shakes, and that's enough to level/settle the coffee sufficiently. If I see an imprint from the bolt that holds the screen in place in the puck after the shot, I know I've dosed a tad too high.

I find this comment a bit odd and certainly very limiting... I am not referring to the dose and the taste that may result, rather on the bolt imprint after the shot. With a 15 g dose there certainly is clearance between the puck and the screen, even with a very light tamp, but their is sometime a light impression of the bolt.
I do not think that an impression of the bolt after the shot is an indication of "over dosing". As a matter of fact, I believe that our Vivaldi's bolt head is such that it ensures sufficient head space if there is clearance with a dry tamp puck. At 16g with a firm tamp, the puck will (most of the time) clear the bolt and potentially give a good shot but will certainly leave a bolt impression on the puck.

FWIW, for all dose above 15.5g, I will use a triple basket.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, what I was hinting at is that 15 to 16g is ideal (a small imprint of the bolt head in the puck seems perfect).

To fit a bit more coffe in the basket and still leave the headspace, I like to tap the portfilter to settle grounds slightly once or twice during the grind. Nutation distributes more as well (giving more headspace).

I never got 18g to work.

I have the triple basket as well, but so far it has been a disaster for me. I need to practice but it uses SO much coffee for a sink shot!

Endo wrote:I have the triple basket as well, but so far it has been a disaster for me. I need to practice but it uses SO much coffee for a sink shot!

Why would that be? I am getting beautiful shots with it. Some coffees do come out better in larger dose (17-18g). Not all of them of course, but they should not all be judged as sink shot, even if not optimal.

sorry if i'm taking this OT, but, given another thread on CG this is on my mind.

for some coffees, like jeff pentel's redbird blend for example, i do get my best results by going up to 18 g in the triple. this is offset however, by a higher frequency of obvious channeling and sinkers. most of the time its 15-16 g in the double that produces the best results for me, especially for more delicate SOs.

what i'm wondering is how many s1 users updose much beyond 18 g. perhaps like endo, that has not been successful for me. but perhaps that is a technique issue or the fact that i don't have either the programmable or passive pre-infusion on my machine.

slo wrote:

peter wrote:My typical dose is 15g, and no, it doesn't fill the basket. I'll give the PF a couple shakes, and that's enough to level/settle the coffee sufficiently. If I see an imprint from the bolt that holds the screen in place in the puck after the shot, I know I've dosed a tad too high.

I find this comment a bit odd and certainly very limiting... I am not referring to the dose and the taste that may result, rather on the bolt imprint after the shot. With a 15 g dose there certainly is clearance between the puck and the screen, even with a very light tamp, but their is sometime a light impression of the bolt.
I do not think that an impression of the bolt after the shot is an indication of "over dosing". As a matter of fact, I believe that our Vivaldi's bolt head is such that it ensures sufficient head space if there is clearance with a dry tamp puck. At 16g with a firm tamp, the puck will (most of the time) clear the bolt and potentially give a good shot but will certainly leave a bolt impression on the puck.

FWIW, for all dose above 15.5g, I will use a triple basket.

My understanding has been that during the preinfusion the puck will swell and if you lose head space there won't be proper/even flow of water through the puck, which is why I stopped the 16g doses.

Hello Peter.

This is correct. There will be swelling and yes the swelling is sufficient to remove the head space and there might be a little restriction in the flow during pre-infusion. But I do believe that this also true of a 15g dose. I sacrificed a few shots, cutting the water before the pumps starts, this morning to verify this and even with a 15g dose the coffee swelled during pre-infusion to completely close the head space.

I do not believe that the restriction is a bad thing and could actually be beneficial. During pre-infusion the liquid tends to flow most at the edges of the puck along the basket and then the wetting of the puck moves toward the center. This is very apparent when the pump starts and the flow always starts on the perimeter. (This was stated, by A. Schecter, very recently on Home-Barista, but I have actually witnessed this while testing pre-infusion a while back and reported it on this forum. I am not simply repeating someone else statement). So the restriction could favor wetting in the central portion of the puck. But, since I suspect this restriction to be very very small, this adverse effect or benefit would be very small.

Thanks for the insight Sylvain, and for the sacrificial research.

For the shots that don't exit the basket perfectly, my main issue is the donut extraction, and your observation that water flows most at the edges of the puck during pre-infusion may shed some light on that. I think I have it set at 4sec., and should experiment some.

I always keep it at 8 seconds. I have nothing but good things to say about long pre-infusion.

So, it is true, is it not, that 18 grams in the triple will also not fill the basket? What I'm still stuck on is that picture you see so often of filling the basket, sweeping the coffee level and then tamping. I think I even remember a video of Chris demonstrating the Vivaldi this way. My experience is that much coffee in the triple is considerably more than 18 grams. What do you think?

Some grinds are fluffier than others. Depends on the bean and the grinder. You can also pack considerably more in the basket if you thump the PF on a table to settle grounds first. You can get even more in if you use nutation. I also use different thickness diffuser discs for changing headspace, but we won't get into this just yet. Of course all of this will have some effect on taste as well. So you must see which you prefer.

I don't weigh that often, but when I do, I find I typically use 16g in the double. If I level first without settling, I usually get 0.5g to 1.0 g less.

In the triple, I usually aim for around 19g (but as I said before, I'm no triple expert).

Keep in mind I'm not a true coffeegeek in that I don't weigh that often. After several years of practice, I know my equipment and beans so well now that I can tell fairly accurately what I will get before I press the button and I adjust my technique slightly accordingly (I find it more Zen this way) . The last thing I want is to feel like a pharmacist (like some silly prep videos I've seen).

richardcoffee wrote:So, it is true, is it not, that 18 grams in the triple will also not fill the basket?

As Eno already mentionned this is dependant on the grinder, but also roast level and coffee density, but with a Macap MXKR, and a light roasted Ethipian coffee I got exactly 18.1g in the triple basket with a ruler level strike this morning. The pour was perfect, but the taste was a bit over intense with some excessive acidity. This particular coffee does not like higher dose. I just wanted to experiment the volume question.

I would put myself in the pharmacist camp. Weigh before, weigh after grinding, WDT, light tamp, nutation, hard tamp, timer on the machine, bottomless portafilter and transparent shot glass. I even sometime weigh the glass for brew ratio but is only occasional. FWIW, I usually prefer 50% brew ratio.

Not that I like the dedious process but because I vary coffees, roast level and dose so much, all the time (3 different coffees each morning is common), that it is the only way, for me, to acheive acceptable results without too much waste. YMMV.

Well, shut my mouth. This morning I decided to be a little more of a pharmacist and lo and behold, 19 grams of a dark roasted blend - containing Brazil Safira Bourbon, Paradise Robusta, Costa Rica Terrazu, and Sumatra (I had some leftovers) - this turned out to be a delicious blend by the way - anyhow - this blend was over the top in my triple. So, I brushed off maybe 1/2 gram, nutated and tamped and got an excellent 40 second shot. But, I did have some of that clear water dripping. If I did 15 grams in the double basket, I'm pretty sure I would not get the dripping. I am using a Pietro T-80 grinder. It has 63mm burrs. One of the things I was not aware of is that the degree of roast makes a pretty big difference in the volume of ground coffee. So, the clear water dripping is a bottomless, triple basket issue. Apparently, like Endo, I am not a triple basket expert. One interesting point is that the clear water dripping does not seem to make a difference in the cup.

richardcoffee wrote:So, the clear water dripping is a bottomless, triple basket issue.

I do not understand this statement. Were you not saying that the clear water dripping was because of the PF not being tight enough? That it possibly was because of over dosing the double basket?
At 19g the triple basket is no where close to being overfilled enough to prevent the PF from creating a good seal. And this is with a thick diffuser.
I measure roughly the force that I use to lock-in the PF at around 10lb and never get any water dripping until the PF gasket is too old.

Does the leak occur only with your bottomless PF and not the regular double? If so, it might be a problem with the tangs.

Yes. Only the bottomless and I'm pretty sure only with the triple basket. Early on, I did observe that I was, perhaps, not tightening the PF enough, but I've corrected that. So I never have this issue with the regular PF.

My guess would be that the tapered tangs on the sides of your triple PF are machined unevenly. This would cause one side to push up and lock the PF before the other side can provide full seating pressure.

Tell the vendor and perhaps they'll let you try another triple PF to see if it fixes things.

I concur with Endo. If the problem is only there with the bottomless there might be a problem with the PF itself.

slo wrote:If the problem is only there with the bottomless there might be a problem with the PF itself.

Along these lines, is it possible that the triple your using is just a tad too deep for your bottomless PF, and so the seal is not quite perfect? I bumped into this thread

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... 13689.html

recently; from John B's comments seems like some issues with the fit of triple baskets.

Alas, I don't know. The facts are that I sometimes get good performance with no dripping with the double and the triple. Other times I get the dripping. It must be me. Yet I persist. I have tried up dosing and down dosing tighter and looser grinds. There seems to be no consistency - except that I consistently get good tasting shots. So, that being the bottom line, I'll keep trying and eventually get one of those giant conical grinders that will solve everything no doubt.