week 1 with S1

[jbb]

Hi all. Just upgraded from a Silvia to a 2004 Vivaldi. It does not appear to have been heavily used, was well maintained, and, from what I can tell looks in good shape on the inside. I've had it set up for a week now. So far it seems remarkably user friendly and right out of the gate i'm getting what I consider to be nice shots, one remarkable one even. I guess compared to Silvia I find myself focusing less on the machine and more on the coffee. will definitely be pulling a lot of shots this weekend and playing with variables. One thing that's clear is that my milk technique definitely needs work . I'm having trouble going from a one hole to a three hole tip; can't seem to get a good spin going. Plus its all over in less than 10 sec.

the question i have concerns the brew switches. maybe one fifth of the time when i press the switch its like the pump doesn't fully engage or something. some water exits the group but there is no real pressure. the other times I can hear the pump kick on (oh, but so so quietly ) and the pressure comes up normally. Is there something I'm missing in the operation of the machine or does it sound like i may have a switch that is starting to go?

[chas]

If I remember correctly, some S1s are sensitive to too quick a button press. Trying pressing on the button a fraction of a second longer and see if the "problem" goes away. If that's what the issue is, it will go away quick enough as the machine "trains" you.

[slo]

I am not sure that I understand the problem... but I have a brew switch that is finicky.

Sometime it starts and stops and sometime it stops and starts. It just seem to keep getting double command... It may be me trembling or something.

It is not something that happens often and whenever I press properly it always works fine.

[jbb]

Thanks for the comments. Today I tried making sure I did a firm (but not too hard) press for about 2 seconds each time. That did not seem to fix the variability I'm experiencing. Let me see if I can describe the problem in a more understandable way. When I hit the switch, there's actually two sounds. The first sound is a low hum, the pump maybe? This sound occurs every time I hit the switch. The second sound, which happens next, is a whooshing type of noise, which I'm guessing is water under pressure. It's kind of like the sound you get from the initial stretching of milk. This is the sound that every so often does not happen. And when it doesn't there seems to be reduced pressure from the group.

If this still sounds like mumbo jumbo I'll see if I can capture the sounds tomorrow on video together with a group pressure gauge.

thanks

[chas]

The way you described it this time sounds like maybe the pump or the motor is on its last legs. Two things happen in response to pressing the group button:

1) the solenoid opens creating a path for the water to flow.
2) The pump comes on pushing out the water under pressure.

If #1 happens but not #2, then you only get water flowing under street water pressure. This sounds like what it happening to you. When you get a low water flow and only a humming noise, it sounds like the solenoid is opening and power is getting applied to the motor, but it's not spinning.

You need to remove the pump which requires removing the two hoses attached to the pump after disconnecting the water line from house pressure of course, then unscrew the collar between the pump and motor so that you can pull out the pump.

Then check the pump shaft and the motor shaft areas for corrosion. Try plugging the S1 back in at this stage with the pump out and push the one or two shot buttons. Do this multiple times and see if the motor is starts reliably each time when not connected to the pump. If this seems to be working OK, then try to turn the pump shaft by hand and see if is turns easily or with difficulty.

[jbb]

OK, so the initial click is probably the solenoid opening. Unfortunately, your diagnosis encompasses the symptoms exactly. The inlet and outlet hose connections to the pump are clearly visible and I take it the collar is secured by the single Phillips bolt situated to my right as I face the machine. I'll uncouple the pump tomorrow and test as you suggest.

This may prove to be a short honeymoon..... But I really appreciate your help.

jb

[Bitches_Brew]

do you get the same sound with the preinfusion on as you do off?

[jbb]

do you get the same sound with the preinfusion on as you do off?

Thanks. As far as I know it doesn't have any pre-infusion. Its a v1, so no programmable pre-infusion as I understand it. i have not seen anything that I would interpret as the passive preinfusion add on, but maybe i don't know what to look for.

[chas]

Since yours is a 2004 model and the VII was introduced in 2006, you definitely have a V1 with the single round steam boiler gauge and no preinfusion. Of course you can add the passive preinfusion option which then provides E61 style preinfusion. http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... ionchamber.

Of course priority one if getting the current problem addressed!

[Bitches_Brew]

i'm confused. i thought that chamber was for the mini V only.

[chas]

Nope. Every S1 made has the hole drilled in the left side of the group head where you can screw in the the preinfusion chamber. You can even put the passive preinfusion chamber on a V2 if you hate the electronic progressive preinfusion and want to do that.

[Bitches_Brew]

Nope. Every S1 made has the hole drilled in the left side of the group head where you can screw in the the preinfusion chamber. You can even put the passive preinfusion chamber on a V2 if you hate the electronic progressive preinfusion and want to do that.

ahhh i see. i was always under the assumption that a new board would add the electronic preinfusion to the older models.

so this means i could have double preinfusion.

[jbb]

OK, I've got the pump inlet/outlet lines detached, and the collar loosened to a point where it rotates freely. The pump does not pull forward easily off the motor shaft-I'm meeting a fair amount of resistance. Before proceeding I thought I would check and see if applying a fair amount of force to pull the pump off should be expected. Thanks

[chas]

Loose isn't enough to free the collar from locking the pump and motor together. You may very well need to completely remove the screw an even pry the collar open a little more beyond that. When the collar is completely free the pump should come off with very little force.

[jbb]

Ok, here is where things stand. In retrospect, the necessity of completely removing the collar should have been obvious. sorry about that. Once off, there was still difficulty in detaching the pump. By gentle wiggling I was able to open up a small crack and then was able to pry them apart. From the photo you can see the obvious scale/corrosion. In particular, I wanted to point out the small hole at the bottom of the motor part of the housing surrounding the shaft. It looks pretty regular, so I'm hoping it's supposed to be there and is not pitting.

I then turned the S1 back on and the motor shaft started to spin as if trying to fill up the group. I did not know if it would stop and whether running dry in this fashion might be bad for it. So I turned it back off and have therefore not tested its responsiveness to the switch. But the motor shaft turns completely freely by hand.

The pump, on the other hand, only turns with considerable difficulty; I have to place a large screwdriver in the notch and twist hard. So I'm guessing a replacement pump is the first thing that needs to happen. Anything to be gained from soaking the pump in a descale solution?

Thanks for all your help in stepping me through this. And the internal pictures on the website are incredibly useful for someone diving into this.

DSCF1078.JPG (75.06 KiB) Viewed 28949 times

[Endo]

Yup. New $139 pump probably required. At least your motor is still good.

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... proconpump

Seems like a systemic issue on a lot of Vivaldis. They should really add something to the owners manual telling people to open up this area every couple of years and re-grease it.

[chas]

Needing to spend $139 on a new pump probably doesn't sound lucky, but others that have had this happen have also had the pump leakage corrode the motor requiring that both be replaced. The hole you noted in the motor housing is so that water seeping from the pump runs out that hole and doesn't get trapped in that space.

You may want to search this forum for posts and photos by JohnB on this subject. When he replaced or repaired his pump for this same reason, he did a couple of other things before reinstalling the pump.

1) He drilled the hole out in the motor a little larger to ensure that water would always run out that hole and the hole would be less likely to get blocked
2) He put some grease around the motor shaft as another deterrent to water seeping from the pump and corroding the motor shaft.

[JohnB]

This company will rebuild your pump for about $50. http://www.jcbeverage.com/pumps.html You can buy direct from Fluid -O-Tech in CT. for around half that $139 price. mark@fluid-o-tech.com for pricing.

[jbb]

I will email fluidotech for pricing; is model CA054 correct?

I'll also check with Chris and read up on the preinfusion chamber. As part of this change over i've also been intending to upgrade my grinder. maybe i can get a discount by lumping everything.

while waiting is there any other preventative maintenance that might be advisable? i removed the opv and it had quite a bit of scale. so i'm wondering if i should also remove the steam boiler and check the heating element.

Meanwhile Silvia will go back on line. i'm sure she will be quite smug. "what, is your little adventure over already?"

[Endo]

Since it's 7 years old, I'd open up the boilers, have a look around and do a descale. Might want to order new boiler and brew head gaskets as well.

[JohnB]

Since it's 7 years old, I'd open up the boilers, have a look around and do a descale. Might want to order new boiler and brew head gaskets as well.

Definitely clean out the boilers as Endo suggests. S/B gasket is one use only & by now the brew boiler o'ring will be due for replacement. You may find that the finned cover on the brew boiler does not want to unscrew. After only 1.5 years corrosion had formed on the threads when I removed mine. If you don't have the correct fin wrench wrap a rag around the fins, grip the finned area with a pipe wrench & give the p/w handle several sharp raps with a mallet to break the finned cover loose. When you reassemble the cover I'd suggest a light coat of high temp Never Seize on the threads.

[JohnB]

ahhh i see. i was always under the assumption that a new board would add the electronic preinfusion to the older models.

so this means i could have double preinfusion.

Upgrading the circuit board will give you programmable P/I & other V2 features but it is pricey.

[chas]

Since it's 7 years old, I'd open up the boilers, have a look around and do a descale. Might want to order new boiler and brew head gaskets as well.

I'd actually say definitely order new gaskets and don't open the boilers until you have the new ones on hand.