The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

53mm Scace for sale. These are $320 new when you can find them. I will sell mine for $275 and include free USPS Priority shipping and insurance anywhere in the US. I will ship immediately on receipt of PayPal payment or cashiers check.

I'm considering it. Trying to determine if it will plug into the K Type MS6500 thermometer I just bought. The Scace ads talk about a Type T thermocouple.

You got me wondering about the difference between K and T so I did some research. A thermocouple is a bi-metal interface which generates a differential voltage based on temperature. The K & the T use different pairs of metal - actually one metal is the same in each but the 2nd one is different. Each type generates a slightly different (milli-)voltage at a given temperature which would indicate that using the wrong one relative to what your digital thermometer expects will cause an error.

After checking on my Fluke DMM, which includes a digital thermometer function, I see that it only claims to support the K type. Since the Scace uses the T type, as you noted, this would indicate that my results in testing the S1 may be in error. However, when I used it to do temp testing, I came up with the same offset that Chris Coffee used so perhaps the difference is largely inconsequential???

I think I can get my hands on a Fluke Digital Thermometer that accepts pretty much any bi-metal thermocouple type. I'll do some A-B comparisons with that meter set to a T thermocouple and my old Fluke DMM which assumes a K type and see what the measurable difference is.

I did some checking also & I see meters that accept K, T & others but it would seem like the basic K meter isn't compatible. It will be interesting to see what you find. While you are at it try out the low range of the Extended Temp Range & see if you can get to 88*C. Using my K thermocouple in a cut down styro cup I can't get below 89*C even though I am pretty much spot on in the normal range.

John,

How accurate do you figure the stryofoam cup method is? I usually get to a degree lower than the readout, but the reading aren't consistent. If you buy the Scace, are you interested in renting it to me?

-Joe

JohnB wrote: Using my K thermocouple in a cut down styro cup I can't get below 89*C even though I am pretty much spot on in the normal range.

How did you set up the cup & what did you use to measure the temp? This time I cut the cup down & installed it in my bottomless p/f with a small drain hole in the bottom & the thermocouple coming in from the side just above the bottom. In the past I have used a standard digi thermometer & I wasn't impressed with the results. Using the K meter I was getting the set temp in the cup by the second flush. By the 4th flush the temp would wander up 1*C & back to the set temp. I didn't do a lot of testing but I was curious if the lower Expanded Temp settings did anything besides turn on some lights.

Even if I buy the Scace you would still need an accurate T type meter to use it & I'm not real excited about investing in one right now.

John,

I did pretty much the same thing you did- put the cup into a bottomless filter. I am using an Extech meter with a type K thermocouple. It seems that my readings are usually about a degree low (after 3-4 flushes) with the offset at zero. Chriscoffee had it set a -1.

There are so many variable with this method that I don't know how much faith to put in it. It would be nice to just use the Scace to make sure my offset is still accurate.

-Joe

JohnB wrote:How did you set up the cup & what did you use to measure the temp? This time I cut the cup down & installed it in my bottomless p/f with a small drain hole in the bottom & the thermocouple coming in from the side just above the bottom. In the past I have used a standard digi thermometer & I wasn't impressed with the results. Using the K meter I was getting the set temp in the cup by the second flush. By the 4th flush the temp would wander up 1*C & back to the set temp. I didn't do a lot of testing but I was curious if the lower Expanded Temp settings did anything besides turn on some lights.

Even if I buy the Scace you would still need an accurate T type meter to use it & I'm not real excited about investing in one right now.

chas wrote:

ebprod wrote:It would be nice to just use the Scace to make sure my offset is still accurate.
-Joe

I couldn't agree with you more...

But first we need to determine if those Scace/K type meter readings are accurate.

Based on the info I found on this site: http://www.temperatures.com/tctables.html, if I set the machine to 93C using the Scace device plugged into a machine that expects a T thermocouple and then plug it into a digital thermometer that expects a K thermocouple, it should read 96.5C.

If that's true Chris Coffee was way off in setting my offset since my measurement of what the offset should be agreed with theirs AND I've really been drinking espresso brewed at 89.5C for the last year! I find that hard to believe...

Well one way to find out for sure would be to do the boiling distilled water calibration corrected for elevation that Greg shows on this page. http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/sca ... e%20device

See how far off the k meter is, if it is.

chas wrote:Based on the info I found on this site: http://www.temperatures.com/tctables.html, if I set the machine to 93C using the Scace device plugged into a machine that expects a T thermocouple and then plug it into a digital thermometer that expects a K thermocouple, it should read 96.5C.

If that's true Chris Coffee was way off in setting my offset since my measurement of what the offset should be agreed with theirs AND I've really been drinking espresso brewed at 89.5C for the last year! I find that hard to believe...

Sad to say that testing has revealed that the assumptions above are probably correct. I placed the Scace device in a pan of boiling water at a rolling boil where the temperature stabilized. The K probe measured 99.3C, the T probe measured 103.9C. If I look up 99.3C on the T probe chart, then find out what temperature would result if that voltage was interpreted as coming from a K probe, I get 103.9C!

So the bottom line is that in the normal espresso range, a T probe connected to a K meter will read ~4C high. So I really am brewing all my shots at 89C when I've thought I was at 93C! Unless you want to mentally add an offset to your readings you will need a digital thermometer than accepts a T probe.

Were you comparing a K meter to a T meter or just different thermocouples on your K type meter?? Have you rechecked the S1 using a T type meter & the Scace to see if its really that far off? It seems unlikely that you would have been happy drinking espresso brewed at 89*C for a year unless you always drink the same stuff & that temp is the sweet spot.

JohnB wrote:Were you comparing a K meter to a T meter or just different thermocouples on your K type meter??

The latter...

JohnB wrote:Have you rechecked the S1 using a T type meter & the Scace to see if its really that far off? It seems unlikely that you would have been happy drinking espresso brewed at 89*C for a year unless you always drink the same stuff & that temp is the sweet spot.

I can't do that until Monday when I get a Fluke 52.

It IS hard to believe i was off by that much. Maybe I'll get the new meter, adjust the VII, and then find out I can send the GS3 back!

I just tested my VII with the Scace and a Fluke 53-2 that supports T thermocouples. The calculations I did earlier in the thread as to how far off my settings would be after adjusting my offset with the Scace plugged into a K thermocouple only meter were spot on. I changed my offset from -2C to +2C. Now it is right on the money.

With that behind me, where's the frickin' truck with my GS/3!!!

So you'll be returning the GS3?? Is the S1 going on the market next? Looking at the new GS3 site I see you couldn't find any info on the heating elements either. Must be a trade secret. Not a lot of room in there, good thing it comes insulated. Plan on plumbing yours in?

chas wrote:I just tested my VII with the Scace and a Fluke 53-2 that supports T thermocouples. The calculations I did earlier in the thread as to how far off my settings would be after adjusting my offset with the Scace plugged into a K thermocouple only meter were spot on. I changed my offset from -2C to +2C. Now it is right on the money.

With that behind me, where's the frickin' truck with my GS/3!!!

So is Chris using a K type meter to set these machines? If not how could yours have been off by so much?

It came all set up from Chris Coffee. All I had to do was disconnect the JG from the VII and plug it into the GS/3. The tank comes with it, too, along with a plumb in kit for the drip tray. The drip tray has a threaded plug you remove, no drilling required!

When you first plug it in and it's coming up to a full head of steam, it pulls 15.6A so it might still be good to have a 20A circuit to plug it into. I thought I might be able to back into wattage values for the boilers by observing the current draw when one versus both boilers are operating. However, once it heats and comes down off 15.6A the current draw jumps all over the place. When it turns off tonight, I'll have to plug in the Kill-a-watt and let it run all day tomorrow to see how much more it's going to cost me to keep all that water hot!

At first I thought the temp was way off and then realized that I changed the Fluke back to K thermocouple. Things started making more sense when I fixed that! It took me a few minutes of playing with it to realize that the offset works different than on the VII. If, for example, you set the GS/3 to 94C and find out using the Scace that you are getting 92C out, you set a -2C offset. Then the display reads 92C and the Scace reads 92C but you still have to set the water temp to 94C.

My first shot really didn't look too pretty but man was it smooth.

Looks sweet but back to the S1 for a moment. Any idea why your temp offset was so far off? Did it come that way & if so I have to wonder how many others are off.

I think I had changed the offset to -2C. I believe it came set to -1C. I hope Chris Coffee isn't also making the T vs K thermocouple mistake but who knows.

BTW: After fiddling with the GS/3 using a 58mm Scace, I ended up with the same offset it arrives with. Previously, Jason at CC had told me not to mess with it. According to LM they have a much more accurate method that a Scace to properly adjust it at the factory.

The conclusions I can draw from this are:

1) The Scace actually is as accurate as what they use at the factory since I came up with the same offset
2) This probabaly means that CC doesn't mess with this when they bench test so it doesn't add any more data that could be used to help with the T vs K issue.

Well, I suppose we could ask. I THINK mine is set pretty close based on the testing I've done but I hope to have the use of a Scace shortly to verify my testing.

I bought Chas' Scace and I also picked up a Fluke 52 II to check mine since it has a new updated VII board and I want to be able to check the offset. Once I've done that I was thinking of making the package available to rent through the board since I won't really have too much use after I've set my offset. I don't know if that's something people would be interested in or not - what do you think?

Count me in- just let me know when it is available.

-Joe

sakurama wrote:I bought Chas' Scace and I also picked up a Fluke 52 II to check mine since it has a new updated VII board and I want to be able to check the offset. Once I've done that I was thinking of making the package available to rent through the board since I won't really have too much use after I've set my offset. I don't know if that's something people would be interested in or not - what do you think?

sakurama wrote:I bought Chas' Scace and I also picked up a Fluke 52 II to check mine since it has a new updated VII board and I want to be able to check the offset. Once I've done that I was thinking of making the package available to rent through the board since I won't really have too much use after I've set my offset. I don't know if that's something people would be interested in or not - what do you think?

I think you will be busy renting it but unless you accept credit cards it will be tough to deal with the deposit to cover the value of both items.

Hmm, hadn't thought of that. I live in NYC and maybe I'm too trusting. I'll think on that - maybe we can do a Paypal deposit or something... I'm sure we can make it work.

im in nyc; when can i rent the device to check out the accuracy of the offset. i got my machine from chris so im sure its right, but no harm in checking.

what the rental fee

ebprod wrote:John,

I did pretty much the same thing you did- put the cup into a bottomless filter. I am using an Extech meter with a type K thermocouple. It seems that my readings are usually about a degree low (after 3-4 flushes) with the offset at zero. Chriscoffee had it set a -1.

There are so many variable with this method that I don't know how much faith to put in it. It would be nice to just use the Scace to make sure my offset is still accurate.
-Joe

I've been doing some testing with a Scace Device & Fluke T meter today & I determined that my 0*C offset was 2*C low.

Lots of interesting data to put in another thread once I do more testing but I'm finding it takes longer then I previously thought to accurately change temp up or down. Flushing doesn't cut it by itself, you need to give it 5 minutes or more to equalize.

It would seem that some machines set to 0*C before the expanded offset upgrade in 7/08 would have been set to a higher positive offset if that option had existed at the time.

Edit 2/27 - I removed the styro cup info as I determined that the k meter I was using read high. I will revisit the styro cup vs Scace readings using the K themocouple in the Fluke meter which will read K, T & other types accurately.

Hi John - I'd love to hear some more about how you tested as I got the Fluke today and checked in an ice water bath and then changed the thermocouple to T for the Scace and did some pulls to see what the offset actually was.

It was a bit confusing. The Scace was cold so my 94° boiler reading only yielded 88° but seemed to keep climbing with each successive pull. After about 5 or 6 pulls it seemed to stabilize around 90° so I changed the offset to correct for that but then it went too high as successive readings kept building. After a while of back and forth I settled on a -3° offset which, if I let the Scace cool to 90° or so would climb quickly to 91 and then slowly to 92 (my target) and then overshoot for the last 1/3 of the shot to 92.6 or so. At that point I felt like it was pretty close to averaging about 92 during the course of the pull.

I just let it sit for 10 minutes and it cooled to 80° and the first pull brought it up to 91 and the next (after the boiler stabilized) started at 90, jumped to 91.2- 91.4 and then at halfway was 92 and then ended just ticking 92.7 which seems to me to be pretty close to on for 92. Does this sound right?

Leave the Scace/Porta filter assy on the machine for 30-60 minutes before you do any testing. More tomorrow.

sakurama wrote: I just let it sit for 10 minutes and it cooled to 80° and the first pull brought it up to 91 and the next (after the boiler stabilized) started at 90, jumped to 91.2- 91.4 and then at halfway was 92 and then ended just ticking 92.7 which seems to me to be pretty close to on for 92. Does this sound right?

To get any accuracy in your testing the Scace needs to be up to temp which takes 30 minutes minimum I'd think. Leave it in for an hour & then run your tests. If you remove your p/f for dosing use the method that CC uses described here:
s1v2/temptest.php

I found that once I reset my offset (+2*C) I hit the target temp by the second 2+oz flush. So for me 1 flush & pull the shot after an idle period is all that is necessary as current set up.

so is everyones temp incorrect or is it the misapplication of the scace

when does the rental program start

michael wrote:so is everyones temp incorrect or is it the misapplication of the scace

when does the rental program start

Incorrect? I assume you mean "true" temperaure is greater then +/- 1C?

The real value in the Scace is not in calibrating offset. It is in teaching the user the inherent "inaccuracy" introduced by variables like "wait time" and flushes.

funny

Endo wrote:
Incorrect? I assume you mean "true" temperaure is greater then +/- 1C?

The real value in the Scace is not in calibrating offset. It is in teaching the user the inherent "inaccuracy" introduced by variables like "wait time" and flushes.

Now your a Scace expert?? Ever use one? You can figure out the later using the styro cup method once you have correctly set your offset using a Scace Device. It's been fun using the Scace & I almost wish I had bought Chas's but now that I know how close I can get with the cup I'm more concerned with getting an accurate temp meter.

michael wrote:so is everyones temp incorrect or is it the misapplication of the scace

when does the rental program start

I would think that most of the machines CC sent out are set correctly if they show a negative offset. Unfortunately up until last summer there was no positive offset option so the best they could do was leave it at 0*C even if another +1* or 2* was required. Of course Chas's S1V2 had a negative offset & he found it to be off by several degrees so who knows.

Endo wrote:The real value in the Scace is not in calibrating offset. It is in teaching the user the inherent "inaccuracy" introduced by variables like "wait time" and flushes.

What is the basis for this sweeping pontification?

The Scace theromfilter device neither calibrates nor teaches. It is a tool for accurately measuring temperature inside the portafilter; nothing more, nothing less. As such, there are multiple applications for the information provided by the device, including but not limited to calibrating the offset between boiler temperature and in-portafilter temperature.

JohnB wrote:
Now your a Scace expert?? Ever use one? You can figure out the later using the styro cup method once you have correctly set your offset using a Scace Device. It's been fun using the Scace & I almost wish I had bought Chas's but now that I know how close I can get with the cup I'm more concerned with getting an accurate temp meter.

I wouldn't waste my money on a Scace (unless it had a Cocbolo handle of course). Thermometer is just fine, and just as accurate. (What a surprise). Thanks for confirming this at least. Not that I would have believed otherwise.

Just another expensive tool used to measure espresso minutea. Probably comes with a subsription to "Home-Barista" so the results can be discussed with other like-minded nit-pickers who fail to see the "forest through the trees".

Endo wrote: I wouldn't waste my money on a Scace (unless it had a Cocbolo handle of course). Thermometer is just fine, and just as accurate. (What a surprise). Thanks for confirming this at least. Not that I would have believed otherwise.

You seem to be the master of the misquote! A thermometer is just fine?? Just as accurate? That wasn't what I said.

Just ordered one of these for the occasional temp check & my roasting which I'm getting ready to jump into:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0312364913 About $50 cheaper then I see it elsewhere. Now I have to find an oven proof thermocouple so I can use it as a meat thermometer so I can tell the wife its a multi use kitchen tool.

JohnB wrote:Just ordered one of these for the occasional temp check & my roasting which I'm getting ready to jump into:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0312364913 About $50 cheaper then I see it elsewhere.

Good find! Just snagged one myself.

Thanks for the link!

-John

JohnB wrote:Now I have to find an oven proof thermocouple so I can use it as a meat thermometer so I can tell the wife its a multi use kitchen tool.

Has a familiar ring to it!

Omega.com. You can find thermocouples of every imaginable specification, and not unreasonably priced. I'm going to pick up one before springtime which can be used in a kiln, specifically to test the the grate-level temperatures over a charcoal fire. Cooking tool!

after the thread about some machines not having the correct temp offset, i thought it would make sense to have chris coffee check the temp offset on my machine while it was visiting for a warranty repair; on checking, the repair people said the temp offset was incorrect, but now has been set correctly

i will start up the machine tonight and see if i can tell a difference

what happened to the scace rental program

michael wrote:after the thread about some machines not having the correct temp offset, i thought it would make sense to have chris coffee check the temp offset on my machine while it was visiting for a warranty repair; on checking, the repair people said the temp offset was incorrect, but now has been set correctly

Michael - When did you buy your machine & what was the offset set to when you got it?

purchased the machine in september; never checked what the prior setting was but i think the repair person at chris coffee said it is now set to -2; is there a simple was to see what the setting is

michael wrote:purchased the machine in september; never checked what the prior setting was but i think the repair person at chris coffee said it is now set to -2; is there a simple was to see what the setting is

Look on pg 11, 12, 13 of the online Owners Manual to see how to check/change temp offset. Since your machine came with the Expanded Temp Offset & ended up with a corrected negative offset one would have to wonder how they got it wrong the first time & how many others are incorrect. I can understand machines sold prior to 7/08 not being correct if they needed a positive offset that wasn't available at that time(mine) but any machine requiring a negative offset should have been set correctly before shipping.

michael wrote:
what happened to the scace rental program

If this gets off the ground whoever sends out the equipment needs to verify the accuracy of the meter with that Scace & adjust the meter T type offset if required. This would require a crushed ice water bath calibration as well as a very specific distilled water boiling point calibration with readings corrected for elevation & atmospheric pressure. If the meter/scace is actually off 1*C or more at boiling point & isn't corrected then its useless for verifying offset temp. Alternatively the meter/Scace could be sent out for calibration to one of the many labs listed on the net.

based on the chris coffee check on my machine and some of the recent posts on this thread, it seems there may be an issue with adjusting the offset on the machines; does anyone have a scace i could borrow/rent

I'd still like to do that but I haven't had the chance to put together a small guide on the Fluke and the Scace with notes and printed user manuals and what not. I've got a busy week this week and then hopefully next I'll pull it together. My thought was to charge $50 and use my UPS account to cover ground there and back and let the balance cover the wear and tear. We'd talked about setting up a page to do a security deposit but I think in this very small community, if the rental is done through a thread where we all know who has it and what not, I don't think that's necessary. Let me know what you think and we'll get this off the ground next week.

Also, I tested the Scace and Fluke in the ice bath and boiling water and it was dead on so that's good. We'll put our collective experience into that thread and let it work.

sakurama wrote: Also, I tested the Scace and Fluke in the ice bath and boiling water and it was dead on so that's good. We'll put our collective experience into that thread and let it work.

Did you submerge the Scace in boiling distilled water or suspend it over the steam in a narrow, tall container as Greg suggests? No idea how much difference it makes but I'm going to try both methods this week.

Hi Sakurama,

Put me on the list for the next available rental!! Send me a PM when you are ready to send it.

-Joe

sakurama wrote:I'd still like to do that but I haven't had the chance to put together a small guide on the Fluke and the Scace with notes and printed user manuals and what not. I've got a busy week this week and then hopefully next I'll pull it together. My thought was to charge $50 and use my UPS account to cover ground there and back and let the balance cover the wear and tear. We'd talked about setting up a page to do a security deposit but I think in this very small community, if the rental is done through a thread where we all know who has it and what not, I don't think that's necessary. Let me know what you think and we'll get this off the ground next week.

Also, I tested the Scace and Fluke in the ice bath and boiling water and it was dead on so that's good. We'll put our collective experience into that thread and let it work.

sakurama wrote:I'd still like to do that but I haven't had the chance to put together a small guide on the Fluke and the Scace with notes and printed user manuals and what not. I've got a busy week this week and then hopefully next I'll pull it together. My thought was to charge $50 and use my UPS account to cover ground there and back and let the balance cover the wear and tear. We'd talked about setting up a page to do a security deposit but I think in this very small community, if the rental is done through a thread where we all know who has it and what not, I don't think that's necessary. Let me know what you think and we'll get this off the ground next week.

Also, I tested the Scace and Fluke in the ice bath and boiling water and it was dead on so that's good. We'll put our collective experience into that thread and let it work.

I would also like to rent the device if possible , I'm sure the temp is not correct on my S1
PM me if when available for rent.
Thanks,
Assi

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