Is it normal?

[jmcphail]

I'm starting to get to know my Vivaldi, and there are a number of things I've never seen before and wonder about.

Is it normal -

- when backflushing, after pressing the double-shot button and letting pressure build untijl the 3 lights flash and pressing again, not much water is ejected by the 3-way valve into the drip tray, and some is left behind in the portafilter above the backflush disc. I expected more water, I guess?

- every shot leaves grinds stuck to the group screens and they must be swabbed out with a towel?

- after swabbing the group screens a follow-up flush pushes out dirty brown water and fines? So a cleaning flush is required after every shot?

I'll probably have more later, but these things I've noticed since I started using the machine yesterday. I appreciate any input!

[JohnB]

That's how mine is. You will also find that you need to drop the screens every few days to remove the accumulation of grinds on the upper screen. I don't do a complete flush after a shot as it takes very little water to flush out the screens.

[jmcphail]

Thanks JohnB, I think I should clarify this -

- after swabbing the group screens a follow-up flush pushes out dirty brown water and fines? So a cleaning flush is required after every shot?

I don't actually mean a backflush, I just mean that I press the shot button to run hot water through the group, to wash out the dirty water and fines that the swabbing didn't remove.

Thanks!

[jmcphail]

I found information on the 'Net about doing a "portafilter wiggle" to clean the group screens. Basically, you hold the portafilter with an empty basket in place loosely ( not cranked over into full brew position ) and wiggle it back and forth while running a blank shot through. This has the effect of washing out the group screens and getting it ready for the next shot.

Tried it, it works better and easier than swabbing the group screens with a cloth, but mind that hot water can splash a little!

Portafilter wiggle doesn't eliminate the need to periodically take the group apart to clean and scrub it, but it's way easier and quicker than wiping down the group after each shot.

[Niko]

Try and remove your screens at least once a week for a hot bath in detergent. This will remove not only the stuck grinds, it'll dissolve the oil buildup which can accumulate over time and cause other problems.

[JohnB]

I had good luck with the p/f wiggle on the Vetrano but it doesn't seem to take all the grounds off of the V2 screen for me. Also you end up having to rinse out the basket twice so I don't know how much time it really saves but if it works for you thats all that matters.

Speaking of p/fs I didn't like tamping into the LaSpaziale p/f as they don't sit as flat on the counter as the Rancilio did so I popped out the clip out of my bottomless p/f. Now I just leave the p/f locked in, fill/weigh/tamp using a warm basket & drop it in just before brewing.

[Niko]

I personally don't like the PF wiggle on Spaz, it worked better on my QuickMill machine also. The reason more grounds get trapped in the Spaz screens is because there's two of them. I think were designed this way to better trap the grinds so they don't end up in the plumbing and your drinks, etc..
Oh it works, that's why LaSpaz doesn't recommend backflushing - instead their screens trap the grounds so you can clean them out at the end of the day by removing them and scrubbing with that huge BBQ-style brush.

[JohnB]

Oh it works, that's why LaSpaz doesn't recommend backflushing - instead their screens trap the grounds so you can clean them out at the end of the day by removing them and scrubbing with that huge BBQ-style brush.

I've been meaning to ask if anyone actually attacks their brew head with that nasty looking wire brush? Looks like it would peel the plating right off the parts & rip the gasket to shreds. I got a nylon bristle brush from CC when I bought the QM so the LaSpaziale brush will be saved for scrubbing debris off the BBQ grill in the summer.

[MDL]

Everything that you describe is exactly what I see with my machine.

I think that it is important to run a flush, and then wipe the screens after each shot to clean the screens. If you watch the Heather Perry videos she suggests flushing briefly after each shot. You don't want extracted grounds ending up in your next fresh shot.

I always backflush after removing the screens and installing the clean set. That way I always get the grounds out of the screens and diffusing disc before backflushing the machine.

Good luck,
Mark

[jmcphail]

The order in which you clean the screens and *then* backflush makes perfect sense, thanks MDL.

I guess I expected more of a gusher after a backflush than is really possible, I mean, with the rubber disc in the portafilter, the system is pressurized water can't really flow in it.

[Niko]

...the LaSpaziale brush will be saved for scrubbing debris off the BBQ grill in the summer.

That's exactly what I use mine for
I don't know of anyone to attack their precious machine with that thing.

And for the record,
I flush after every shot with the Pallo brush, flushing alone will not get rid of the grinds. Don't make me prove this because I will provide video evidence!

[coffeeowl]

...the LaSpaziale brush will be saved for scrubbing debris off the BBQ grill in the summer.

That's exactly what I use mine for
I don't know of anyone to attack their precious machine with that thing.

I use mine for scrubbing the screens and diffuser disc. I don't cafiza yet, I heard La Spaziale recommends detergent-free approach

By the way, I got two sets of screens but only one diffuser with my machine, is it normal?

I flush after every shot with the Pallo brush

yes sir that's my baby

The order in which you clean the screens and *then* backflush makes perfect sense

I backflush before leaving her idle for a longer while, is it too often then? for I clean the screens only every couple of nights.

[Niko]

One diffuser is normal.
And I clean the screens once per week with detergent.

[chas]

If you read the FAQ on backflushing here you'll see the LaSpaziale rationale for two sets of shower screens.

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/faqs.htm

[coffeeowl]

oh thanks! so I'm prety normal too :D :)

[jmcphail]

Another normalcy question -

At the risk of beating the "wet puck" question to death, *all* my pucks are wet. I know a wet puck in itself isn't the problem, and that it indicates *something* with my technique or setup.

I've used extremely fine grinds ( to the point of a turkish-like sludge in the cup ) to much coarser grinds, light tamp & heavy tamp, and the pucks almost always have a layer of water standing on them. The pucks usually don't come out in one piece, very muddy sometimes.

I use a Staub tamp, a convext 53mm tamper into the bottomless PF. During brew my gauge registers 9 bar. I'm measuring 14g for each double, and pull for 20-25 seconds. Lots of my pulls have spurters or other channeling, but a very few seem alright; those are also wet.

I also notice that when I release a backflush there is a lot of noise and sputtering in the back corner of the drip tray, but not much actual water.

Thinking about the wet pucks and (small) volume of backflush water really makes me wonder...

[JohnB]

I haven't gotten many wet pucks so I'm not sure what the problem is there. The small amount of water after a back flush is pretty normal though. One short blast is all I get with a back flush.

[jmcphail]

I checked Niko's backflush videos, my backflushes seem right in line with what I saw in the video.

I wonder if it's also a matter of how much space there is between the top of the puck and the screens. Since I'm dosing at 14g ( pretty light compared to a lot I read about ), there is a good amount of space. Once the pressure releases after the shot, there is no reason for the remaining water in the PF to go anywhere.

I'm going to try dosing up to use as much of thespace as possible without shoving grinds into the screens and see what happens. I'm guessing I can get up to 17-18g in there.

[jmcphail]

18 g and still water standing on the puck.

[bugbus]

With my bottomless portafilter from CC, 15g of coffee sits well below the rim of the basket and after WDT and tamping, sits about 1/8 inch below the indentation on the side. I'm finding I need 20g+ of grounds if I want to overflow the basket and then level with a straight edge (read finger). I'm assuming that this is an oversized double basket.

For now I'm trying to stick with a measured 15g and play with the grinder/temp settings although I end up with a wet puck.

[Niko]

15 grams is good, the Spaz really likes more room between the grounds and the screens - also gives it a nice dwell.

I haven't gotten many wet pucks so I'm not sure what the problem is there. The small amount of water after a back flush is pretty normal though. One short blast is all I get with a back flush.

Try a double basket with the disk.
Or better yet, get a real blind basket from EPNW (or whoever else sells tham) and you'll get a real nice blast.

oh thanks! so I'm prety normal too :D :)

That's what you think!
...it's OK because I'm NOT normal at all.

[JohnB]

With my bottomless portafilter from CC, 15g of coffee sits well below the rim of the basket and after WDT and tamping, sits about 1/8 inch below the indentation on the side. I'm finding I need 20g+ of grounds if I want to overflow the basket and then level with a straight edge (read finger). I'm assuming that this is an oversized double basket.

For now I'm trying to stick with a measured 15g and play with the grinder/temp settings although I end up with a wet puck.

What Espresso Blend are you using. I can fill the basket to the top with 17g of Black Cat.

[jmcphail]

18g was a difficult fit for me, too.

[jmcphail]

I stepped through an exercise last night of setting the grind to what I knew was far too coarse, and then stepping the grind down through successive double shots with a measured glass and a timer, until I reached 2 oz. in @25 seconds.

I ended up right around "4" on the La Cimbali Max/Hybrid indicator dial, which is producing sweeter shots than what I was getting using 3 - 3-1/2, and miraculously my pucks are a lot drier. :D A little tweaking in either direction and judicious use of LaSpaz's PID and I'm looking good!

This is probably something the old hands already knew to do, but it's all a learning experience for me.

Today I am attempting to find some nice cups and saucers and some kind of kitchen island/cart to make a permanent home for my grinders, brewers, roasters, green coffee, roasted coffee, espresso machine, tampers, scales, mats, knockbox, thermometers, brushes, containers, portafilters and all other coffee paraphernalia. I finally collected all that stuff together on the kitchen table and a) was surprised by how much there was, and b) was surprised by how much counter space will be reclaimed in my kitchen and c) can only imagine how bad this will get as I deteriorate mentally and continue... collecting stuff.

Your pride photos are really helping me with ideas, thanks for posting them everyone!

[Richard]

. . . use of LaSpaz's PID . . .

Unless you have significantly modified a machine, there is no such animal.

[jmcphail]

I guess instead of "PID" I should say "system that constantly monitors and adjusts brew temperature" to be completely correct? I wonder if that system in the LaSpaz has a name.

Like I mentioned, a learning experience. :D

[Niko]

Like Wolfgang mentioned on another thread, the S1 has a delta-controller (also called deadband or two-point controller).

[jmcphail]

I think this might be the thread -

wforum/viewtopic.php?t=553&highlight=deadband

[jmcphail]

Here's one -

Is it normal to throw an kid-style tantrum complete with hyperventilating burp-crying after dropping a damn thumb-screw into the bowels of your mostly assembled La Spaz for the third time when attempting to reassemble the sides and back you removed after discovering that you can't quite get the threads on the big nut at the top of the steam arm to catch after disassembling the steam arm?

Okay, just kidding about the tantrum and burp-crying, and I think I'm really talking about the big nut holding the wrench, but sweet tap-dancing Jesus!

All in good fun folks, but it sure is aggravatin' !!!

[chas]

Sounds like you've beat my consecutive drop record!

[JohnB]

I've yet to find a reason to remove/reinstall the sides or back & from what I've read I'm in no hurry to try.

[Niko]

I got you both beat by at least 12 drops.
I even dropped a bottle cap in my S1 once, the beer open so fast that the cap flew in the machine


...and yes, the machine was unplugged.