2nd Vivaldi - Plumbed or Pourover

[LDT]

I am curious how many of you who have the Mini would buy the plumbed version if cost and proper connections where not an issue. I ask this because, now that I have lights on my Mini, I can clearly see into the tray and I'm surprised how much sediment collects there. It doesn't take very long either.

Before I purchased the the Mini, I anguished over which to buy and now, because I really don't mind cleaning the tray and filling the water reservoir, if I had it to do over again I would buy the Mini. I'm just curious how others feel.

[chas]

The amount of crap that collects in the drip tray isn't relative to whether you have a Mini or a Maxi. You can put the drain accessory on the drip tray of either model and that will drain some of it away, but it's still going to build up albeit at a slower rate even with the drain added on.

[richardcoffee]

It's interesting. I got the mini because I feared the process of plumbing. Then I tired of the in-tank softener so I put Chris' under sink system in - so, I'm feeling kind of silly. Plumbing wasn't such a big deal. Still, I don't find the process of filling the tank or emptying the drain tray very tedious. I do it once a day at the end of morning coffee. I keep a pitcher full of softened and filtered water on the counter. And only have to fill the pitcher about once a week. The things that might make me more inclined to have the plumbed in model are - I'm reluctant to use the hot water from the small mini boiler and - the plumbed in model is, I guess, quieter.

[Endo]

It makes no difference to me. Both have some advantages.

I like the fact I can use my Mini on a counter in the kitchen that is across from the sink area. If I had a plumbed model, I wouldn't be able to do this. I also like that it costs about $450 less, when you include all plumbing bits you need.

Of course if I had the extra money and counter spot for the plumbed model, I would have likely gone with that model.

[Dan Bollinger]

To me, plumbed is the way to go. I installed a plastic 1/4" water line and 1/2" drain line for my E61 machine ten years ago. Now they serve my VII. The convenience having it plumbed for every shot, every day, is worth the hassle of installation.

[richardcoffee]

I'm surprised that a 1/4" supply line is adequate.?

[chas]

Before my first S1, I had an Isomac Tea with a plumb-in kit put together by CCS. With that came the full filter set and 1/4" JG connectors and tubing. When I bought the S1, Chris recommended that I use 3/8" instead of 1/4" and he sent me the connectors and tubing I needed to do a quick conversion.

Since then a number of folks have reported successfully using 1/4" JG tubing with the S1. To be safe if you are just installing a new system, go with 3/8". The cost difference is negligible. If you already have a 1/4" installation try it out. Unless you have really low house pressure or a very long run of 1/4" tubing, it should work fine. If the pump is getting starved for water it will chatter mercilessly and let you know.

[Dan Bollinger]

I'm surprised that a 1/4" supply line is adequate.?

Sorry, my mistake. My espresso machine has a 3/8" line. The size of line also depends on length of run and its pressure. Mine comes from an RO unit, so its pressure is 28 psi max. If you are using line pressure, say 60-80 psi, then a 1/4" line will probably be just fine. I think that as long as the water comes out of the line faster than the machine can use it you are OK.

[jfrescki]

I had every intention of buying an S1, but a 1 year old used Mini came up for sale about 1.5 miles from my house (he was upgrading to a GS3) with pre-infusion chamber and tampers (since he was going 58mm), so I couldn't pass it up. I'm perfectlly happy with the Mini, but I wouldn't mind the rotary pump either.

[peter]

My S1 is across the kitchen in its own nook, w/ no sink. It used to sit next to the sink, so the filter/conditioning housing and the regulator are in the basement under where it used to be. The 1/4" line from the regulator to the machine is a good 15', and there's no problem w/ the pressure at 30psi. The 1/2" drain tube follows through the hole behind the cabinet and floor that the supply line comes up through, and terminates in my basement floor drain. Life is good.

[awong]

The mini is not just the version that is not plumbed. It is a different machine. The steam boiler is a lot smaller and less serviceable, the pump is not the much higher end rotary pump that is rarely found on consumer machine but a regular vibratory pump which is a lot less smooth and consistent.

This is from this site:


Three liter water tank with low water sensor
Steam boiler is 1/2 the size of the one in the V2 but with the same size heater element for rapid steaming
Steam control is a lever rather than a knob
Uses a vibe pump rather than a rotary pump
No integrated programmable pre-infusion. However, a mechanical pre-infusion option is available
All other features the same as the Vivaldi II

Copied from home barista review:


The VII’s rotary pump allows for easy adjustment. My recommendation is to set it to 9 bar and leave it. Chris' machines come bench tested and preset to 9 bar. Pressures of nine bar and below make for an easier pull without channeling. I attribute this to the lower pressure that doesn’t force open fissures that would otherwise lead to channeling. Some espresso aficionados claim to taste a difference at various pressures. If you are inclined to tweak the pressure to discover for yourself, it is easy to do so with a rotary pump since it has a built-in bypass valve that allows you to set the pressure directly and you can use the dual manometer to check the pressure reading. That is, unlike vibration pumps, which put out their maximum pressure for a given resistance and rely on an expansion valve for pressure regulation, a rotary pump puts out the same pressure independent of the flow rate. In a commercial environment, one rotary pump may service several groups, plus it doesn’t require the pauses that a vibration pump must have (about one minute maximum before resting for one minute). For this reason and of course their durability and longevity, rotaries are the de rigueur in such demanding situations.

One other advantage of rotary pumps is they are quieter than vibration pumps, especially when the pump is external to the machine under cabinet as is often the case in commercial setups. The VII’s is inside the unit. I don’t own a sound meter to measure precisely, but empirically it sounds much quieter and at a lower tone than the already reasonably quiet vibration pump of the La Valentina.

[LDT]

There are pro's and con's to having a rotary pump, but since I don't have one others should chime in.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Endo]

There are pro's and con's to having a rotary pump, but since I don't have one others should chime in.

Vibe pumps make more noise. That's about it. The rest of the HB review is a bunch of unsupported blah, blah.

If you are pulling 20 shots and hour, the rotary pump will be more reliable. If you are pulling less than 20 shots a day, the vibe pump will be more reliable.

[Dan Bollinger]

The rest of the HB review is a bunch of unsupported blah, blah. If you are pulling 20 shots and hour, the rotary pump will be more reliable. If you are pulling less than 20 shots a day, the vibe pump will be more reliable.

Endo, would you care to support your claims?

Dan

[Endo]

The rest of the HB review is a bunch of unsupported blah, blah. If you are pulling 20 shots and hour, the rotary pump will be more reliable. If you are pulling less than 20 shots a day, the vibe pump will be more reliable.

Endo, would you care to support your claims?

Dan

(frustrated engineer parts edited out)

A vane pump and motor is a pump type used for near continuous flow. In a cafe situation, a multi-head machine may be running several shots per minute, so the pump will have an extremely high duty cycle. In these situations, the right choice is a vane pump and heaty duty electric motor. This is what they were designed to do. Of course with this choice is the undersatnding the pump and motor must be serviced according to a scheduled maintenance plan, and usually by a technician. If not, the cafe could risk losing a great deal of money due to downtime.

At home, the average user makes between 1 and 4 shots A DAY. So a vane pump is total overkill. It would be like using an F1 car just to sit in traffic in your daily commute. And when you got home, you'd find there was no pit crew so you'll need to do all the engine work yourself. Don't take my word that the vibe pump is more reliable, just do a search of this site for "vibe" and "rotary" problems and count for yourself how many "dry damaged pimp" and "rusted motor bearing " problems there are. Also calculate the repair cost of a new pump for each type and the time involved swapping it. It's no contest.

Also, there is absolutely no evidence the flow profile provided by the vane pump is superior to the vibe pump. In fact, there is much more evidence to the contrary that the vibe pump profile (with more gentle ramp up) is actually superior.

Of course if motor noise is the most important factor for you, then the rotary pump is probably the right choice for you, but one shouldn't claim it is more reliable in home use or produces better tasting shots.