Taking much longer than expected to pull a double espresso

[kbedsted]

Hi,

I am the relatively new owner of a Mini Vivaldi II and in general an espresso newbie. I ordered my machine from Chris Coffee 3 months ago and everything has been working just great and according to expectation.

I do not have my own grinder yet, so I’ve been using mostly Illy which has been working good for me. I recently ventured into the local super market and purchased and ground some coffee. When I got home it turned out that I ground the coffee to fine and even a 1 minute long shot would only result in very little espresso (1/4 oz). I used it a couple of times and tried different tamping etc. but just ended up throwing it away and went back to using Illy.

Here is the problem: Going back to Illy, I now don’t get the same amount of Espresso as I used to when pulling a double (2 oz) over 25 seconds. I now need to pull around 45 seconds to get the same amount and the taste is more bitter. Also there is a big difference between using the bottomless portafilter vs. the normal double portafilter that came with the Mini. The times above are with the bottomless, which is the one I have been using almost exclusively.

The group pressure needle is on average at 9 PSI when pulling the shot, but the needle vibrates a lot (more than what I have seen from other’s pulling shots with the Mini II on many of the youtube videos).

There is no dripping and there does not appear to be any leaks or any other sign of malfunction (apart from the needle vibration but I really don’t know what to expect from that). I have thoroughly cleaned the machine and portafilters with Cafiza and done the proper backflush procedures as described in the owner’s manual.

What could be wrong?

Thanks in advance.

Kenneth

[JmanEspresso]

The problem is that you're not using fresh roasted coffee, and grinding it only seconds before you need it. Simply put.

But with the Illy, try using a lower dose. You cant change how it's ground, so the only control you have, is dose. Less Coffee=Faster Extraction. More Coffee=Slower Extraction

[oton]

An espresso machine without a grinder is totally useless. The grinder is not an extra option, it's a must. In fact, I'd buy first a grinder than an espresso machine, at least with the grinder you could make a proper fp/drip coffee.
With the grinder you are going to adjust the coffee ground size, which is an essential factor to control brew speed and therefore make a good or a bad espresso.

[kbedsted]

Thank's for the reply. A grinder is next on the list (Mazzer Mini E type B)

However, in this case, I disagree that it has to do with grind as I've been consistently using Illy and now for some reason it just takes double the time. Unless the Illy factory grind varies, the grind is not to blame.

I just stumbled on this thread about a damaged flow meter alarm: http://www.s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... tons#p2021

I just noticed that if I enter volumetric dose programming mode and hit either 1 or 2 cup button that I will get the alarm instantly, even with a portafilter attached. I am not sure it's supposed to do that, so it sounds a lot like the thread above.

Anyway, more suggestions are definetly welcome.

[kbedsted]

Hmm! Took the volumetric sensor apart and it was squeaky clean inside. I am beginning to think you guys are actually right (how foolish was I to even doubt the masters in the first place )

Put about 16g of Illy coffee in the bottomless pf and boom, out cafe 2.5 oz of Espresso in 25 seconds. I don't trust my current scale though.

Maybe I have been over dosing it, but I have been very consistent and this thing only happend after my bad experience with the espresso from the local supermarked - that's why I am still puzzled. Anyways, noob has got to learn and I've learned a lot already from this experience.

Tomorrow, I will go and get a new high precision scale and do some more experiments. Any recommendations?

Thanks again and input are still very appreciated

Kenneth

[JmanEspresso]

This is a good deal on a very decent scale for anything coffee related...

[url=http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-SC ... 35&sr=8-14]Click here[x]. It reads in 0.1gr, which is what you need for accurate dosing. It will hold up to 2000gr, which is plenty for espresso dosing, and should also be good for small french press dosing/brewing, and roasting.

There are of course, a gazillion options out there for a digital gram scale. As long as it reads in 0.1gr increments, and supports at least 200gr, you should be fine. 200gr is not a lot, so whatever you use to hold the beans while weighing needs to be pretty light.

Past that, the only advice I have, is to get a grinder. I PERSONALLY think the Mini-E is way overpriced for what it is, but it certainly is a good grinder. Have you considered the Baratza Vario? Or, for the price of the Mini-E, you could get the Macap MXK, which is a large conical grinder, the Macaps competition to the Mazzer Kony(IE: superior to the mazzer mini). You could also get the Cimbali Max Hybrid for about the same price(I actually think these two are less then the Mini-E), and the CMH is a very good grinder as well.

[Endo]

As you discovered, pre-ground coffee (like Illy) will provide very different times. This can be due to differences in grind, freshness and water content. Besides, the blend is not very good. There is a whole world of different artisan roasters out there that will bring your Vivaldi to life, delivering the taste you paid $2000 for.....but you'll need a grinder first.

I would forget about getting a scale and simply buy a Baratza Vario grinder that has programmed dosing. It's less than half the price of the overprice Mazzer Mini E and does a better job (according to most experts).

Remember the "Cardinal Rule" of espresso !! Good fresh coffee and a good grinder. Everything else is secondary (and that includes the espresso machine).

[slo]

I would forget about getting a scale and simply buy a Baratza Vario grinder that has programmed dosing.

I do agree with Endo, for the Baratza Vario, based on many posts. I have not own mine for long enough to have a hands on opinion. But I disagree with the scale. Even if you have a auto-dosing feature it is a very useful tool to control the process.

I have run two different coffee through the B-Vario already and for the same time setting they produce very different weight. It is up to you but at the relatively low price of a decent digital scale I think that it is worth it.

[Endo]

If you need a scale I can recommend this one:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1165

Small, cheap and has a tare feature.

[SwingT]

Dunno where you are, but you usually can pick up a used Super Jolly on Craigslist for $400 or so.

Much better for you than a new mini.

Or the Baratz Vario if you're going to go new

[JmanEspresso]

John Borella is selling a very nice condition Super Jolly on CoffeeGeek for $400... Had I not JUST bought a Vario, Id be strongly considering it.

Regardless of which grinder you choose to buy... Get a Gram Scale which reads in 1/10th of a gram (0.1gr). Regardless of whether your grinder has timed dosing or not, a gram scale is a very, very helpful tool. Consistency is everything when it comes to puck prep, and the scale helps out a lot with that.

[JohnB]

If you need a scale I can recommend this one:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1165

Small, cheap and has a tare feature.

That's the one I use, just bought one for my daughter. Still working after 8 months which is a cheap scale personal record for me. Ships out of Hong Kong so expect it to take a couple weeks to arrive.

[Endo]

Here's the scale on my "personal tamping station". No comments on the Mazzer / Starbucks brush please!

scale.jpg (54.36 KiB) Viewed 14618 times

John, enough about silly scales....how about a Speedster / Vivaldi comparison?

[JohnB]

John, enough about silly scales....how about a Speedster / Vivaldi comparison?

I'll post something soon but you aren't going to want to hear about the effortless microfoam the Speedster can turn out all day long.

[Endo]

You said a similar thing about your Elektra. It's easier just to say the Vivaldi makes bad microfoam.

Well...at least it's fast and it forces me to continually sharpen my skills. Unfortunately, after a year of practicing like a Latte Ninja, it seems I'm stuck making big apples, hearts and fat leafed rosettas. Feels like I'm drawing with a fat paintbrush.

I'm getting some outstanding multiple rosettas on a friends Gaggia these days....but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up the steaming speed of the Vivaldi for a prettier cup.

You have me considering selling an organ to get a Speedster.

[kbedsted]

Thanks for the feedback and recommendations.

I spent some time racing the forums about the Baratza Vario and Monday I ordered the Vario from Chris' Coffee - It will be arriving tomorrow.
To be prepared, I went to Seattle to pick up some beans from Espresso Vivace (Vita and Dolce) – Can’t wait to go experiment with all this.

Endo: Nice tamping station

[JmanEspresso]

Idk... Ive been making some of the absolute best microfoam Ive ever poured and tasted, including some Ive made, and had made for me, on a 3grp GB/5, with a local dairy's whole milk.

From the first pitcher of milk, its been even easier then second nature.

[JohnB]

You said a similar thing about your Elektra. It's easier just to say the Vivaldi makes bad microfoam.

The Elektra does a very nice job with Cappo quantities of milk. The Speedster is a different animal! Since my post above I've found out that the current 1.4b setting on my steam boiler must have been adjusted down since it left the factory. Kees tells me that I can safely set the steam boiler up to 2.5b! Since it will effortlessly roll 8oz of milk at 1.4b I have to imagine the 2.5b setting is for a cafe steaming enough milk for 3 lattes in a 1 litre pitcher. Since the electronic controller is easily adjustable I'll turn it up to 1.8b at some point just to see what its like. My guess is that I'll be wiping milk off of the ceiling.

I will say that I was never unhappy with the S1V2's steaming abilities but then I'm no Latte artist either.