Very long shot time

[mgannon]

So can anyone give me any ideas why my shots are regularly taking between 45 seconds and a minute? It's not the grind - I've been way coarse on my grind just to experiment, and that doesn't really change the timing very much. I replaced my pump and motor a while back (a year ago maybe?) after the seal at the rear of the pump failed, leaked, and ruined the front bearing on the motor. So my pump is pretty new. the pressure is dialed in to about 8.5 bar. Is there something in the plumbing that could be constricted such that the shots are taking so long? For whatever it's worth, the hot water nozzle puts out plenty of water - doesn't seem to be a pressure or supply problem on that side.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[slo]

Have you tried a shot without coffee? If so, how long does it take to get 2 onces?

[chas]

If you have or have access to a PF pressure gauge, especially one that can let a controlled amount of water through the group, that would help in troubleshooting the issue.

The internal gauge measures pressure right at the output of the pump, if there is a problem between there and the group, you'll never know it by referencing the built-in gauge.

Another thing to check for is leakage from either the 3-way or the Expansion valve. You can watch them both during a shot with the drip tray grate removed.

[mgannon]

I'll give a "no coffee" shot a try later today. Also, mine is an "old" S1, so I don't have a built in pressure gauge. My 8.5 bar reading is from my DIY PF pressure gauge. I don't have a outlet on it, though. I might be able to rig something up, but that will mean another trip to Lowes. Back when I replaced the pump and the motor I got a slight kink in the clear tube on the output side of the pump. I don't think it is constricted, but I could be wrong. Assuming there is a teeny bit of constriction, is it possible that's the cause? It seems unlikely given the very small size of the copper tube leading from the 3-way to the group boiler (i.e., if the internal diameter of that copper tube is smaller than the theoretically somewhat kinked plastic hose, how could the somewhat kinked hose be the limiting factor?).

[slo]

If you are testing the pressure with no outlet, the pressure you will read is higher than the pressure would be with a flow. This is true no matter how small the flow. If you are getting 8.5 bar with no flow I would conclude/guess that the pump pressure is set too low.

Adding a valve to allow some flow is essential to getting an accurate pressure setting. But you also need to measure the pressure with a flow that corresponds to the "normal" 2 onces in 25 seconds or something close to that. I have installed a ball valve controlled by a lever and it is very tricky to set the right flow. If you can find it, get a metering valve that might be easier to adjust.

For the constriction issue, you might get the answer with the no coffee flow. If you get very little flow with no coffee (free flow) then there is some kind of constriction somewhere in the flow path.

As Chas is saying, leakage might be an issue and it is an easy check.

[mgannon]

I'm pretty certain leakage isn't an issue, but will double check. As for timing a coffee-less shot, I'm not supposed to do anything different (other than not adding grounds to the basket) right? My point is that I won't be timing how long it takes to get 2oz, but instead something more than 2oz, since the puck won't be there to absorb any water. Just leave the volumetric dosing right where it is, press the double button, and start the timer, right?

[mgannon]

OK, here's the data. Pulling a shot with coffee, 52 seconds from pressing the button to solenoid clicking off. This is with the double basket, pulling about 3 oz of espresso. Pulling a shot without intalling the PF, 49 seconds, and yields about an ounce more liquid.

Thoughts?

[slo]

Ok it is not the coffee in any way, shape or form. But it could be the group head screens or diffuser.
Did you check that there was no liquid coming out of from either the 3-way or the Expansion valve during the pull?

I just did an experiment here and with only the house pressure, which I have regulated at about 25 psi dynamic - 30 psi static, I get around 2 onces of water out of the group in about 15 seconds using the pre-infusion free flow (3 run of approx. 5 seconds). I now believe that there is a restriction in the water path between the main water inlet and the group. This is based on the following in the V1 site:

LaSpaziale S1 Water Flow Diagram

Notes:
1) The pump does not block water flow when it is not running. When the pump is off, street water pressure remains at
the pump outlet. This means that water pressure is constantly applied through 3-way T #1, through 3-Way T #2, and into
the group boiler. However, refill of the steam boiler requires activation of Solenoid Valve A which occurs in response to
the water level sensor inside the Steam Boiler.
(Thank you Chas)

[mgannon]

Thanks, Slo. Since my older model S1 doesn't do preinfusion (so I can't replicate your experiment apples to apples), could you do a coffee-free double shot for me and let me know how many ounces you get in how many seconds? Much appreciated.

[slo]

I get about 3.88 onces (115 ml) in about 11 seconds. This is with the pre-infusion set to 0. So this is now with pump on full time.
I have repeated it 5 time with the exact same result. My shots are programmed long such that I cut the infusion when the pour starts looking bad.

Now, I just thought of something. The difference between the "free" pour and coffee pour is only 3 seconds. This to me indicates that the pressure builds up pretty fast. With only house pressure (25 psi)- no-pump-pre-infusion - It takes more than 6 second before I see any trace of liquid at the bottom of the basket. But considering the length of time your shots take, it may mean nothing.

[mgannon]

Yep - I'd say I've got a blockage somewhere. It's taking nearly 5 times as long for me to pump the same amount of water (49 seconds instead of 11). Time to tear it down and start with replacing that minorly (at least I thought so) kinked hose.

Rats.

[slo]

Just think of it as an opportunity to "upgrade" your Vivaldi.

Let us knowhow it turns out.

[JohnB]

I checked my flow this morning and got exactly the same as Sylvain in an 11 second time frame. Do you remove & clean the diffuser block regularly? If not those small holes can clog up. Ever have the group boiler cover off? Might be a good time to see whats inside. The o'ring should be reuseable but if not they are cheap.

[mgannon]

Well, I just ruled out the slightly kinked hose from the output side of the pump to the 3-way. I left that in place, and removed the first copper line that comes out of the 3-way from the volumetric sensor that is in between the 3-way and the group boiler (bottom left of machine when looking at it from the front). Plenty of flow on house pressure. Gonna hook that one back up and disconnect the line from the group boiler and see how that flows. Step by step, tracking down the constriction. John B, next stop after the copper line going into the group boiler will be to yank the group boiler cover.

Stay tuned.

[mgannon]

GOT IT!! The input side of the volumetric sensor (i.e., right after the line I disconnected in the above post) is almost totally occluded. Compare the hole on the left (output side) with the white chalky mass on the right - shouldn't be the same size hole, but should be quite a bit bigger than it is.

Occluded Volumetric Sensor

CIMG2306 (Large).JPG (96.76 KiB) Viewed 26277 times

There's also a bit of occlusion on the output side right where the copper line hooks up.

Time to clean it all up, but I think this will do it.

[JohnB]

Looks like it would be a good time to open up both boilers, remove all water connections & give the machine a thorough cleaning. The techs at CC told me that those water line elbow assys on the steam boiler tend to build up scale.

[chas]

I had a similar problem with my original S1 except the culprit was the steam boiler. If the steam boiler doesn't refill in a minute it causes a blocking alarm and you have to unplug the S1 and plug it back it to clear it. This was happening to me occasionally starting after 1 year until it go so bad that I had to break down and start removing parts. Turns out I had a mineral deposit similar to what you had on the gicleur valve that controls flow between the pump and the steam boiler. All it took was a quick scrape and the boiler was back to refilling in 5 sec or less.

[mgannon]

Well, that might not have been it after all. After reassembling, I tried pumping a shot through, and still got very little flow out of the group head (no dispersing disc or screens in place). So I removed the group head. Start pump. Still very little flow out the little hole on the front of the group boiler. Opened up the back of the group boiler, and found some scale - not a ton, but enough to maybe have something float off and plug the hole leading to the group head. The scale buildup was predominantly on the bottom of the group boiler, where the two halfs of the group boiler mate. So now I've undone all the bolts that secure the group boiler to the chassis, but I can't for the life of me either (1) separate the two halves of the group boiler, or (2) get the group boiler slid through the chassis to remove it so I can thoroughly descale it. It only goes so far forward through the hole in the chassis, and then it gets bound up. AARRRGHH!

[mgannon]

OK, just got the two halves of the group boiler separated. I'm getting in deep here. Sure hope I'm not in the process of f#$%ing up my machine.

[JohnB]

Kind of late now but did you try disconnecting the water feed from the group boiler to check the flow rate into the boiler? There isn't much to the grouphead/boiler assy so as long as you buy some new gaskets I don't see what you can screw up.

[chas]

Just keep in mind if you try that to turn off the water first since there is line pressure there at all times!

[mgannon]

I did try the flow at the connection into the boiler, and it was good. Gotta be something inside the boiler. Now that I have the two halves separated, and cleaned, the only issue I'm concerned about is that the plating is now missing where the scale was. Is this just going to be a continuing problem for me now?

CIMG2311 (Large).JPG (81.84 KiB) Viewed 26254 times

Do I need to order a new group boiler?

[JohnB]

How hard is the water you are using?

[cruiten]

And here I thought that we only had to worry about scale build-up in the boilers... From the pictures I have seen it is clear that there is significant scale build-up in the line/components between the main water input and the group boiler.

If you don't mind sharing, I would be interested in some information so that I can figure out whether I need to change my own preventative maintenance schedule:

• 1. Do you treat/filter the water used by the S1? If so, what method do you use?
  2. What is the General Hardness of the water used by the S1 after it has been treated/filtered?
  3. How many shots do you normally pull in a week?
  4. Does the machine ever sit idle for long periods (like weeks on end)?

In addition, if this were my machine I would start at the pump and work my way towards the group head to ensure that the water path is clear.

Good luck,

[mgannon]

How hard is the water you are using?

Not very hard (I know, not a very scientific answer). I tested it when I originally got the machine 4 years ago, it was slightly elevated, so I've been using Chris Coffee's filter and softener setup, changing the cartridges about every 6-9 months. I don't know what the ultimate harness level is. I suppose I should get a test kit and find out.

As for Cruiten's other questions, I pull10-15 shots a week, and the machine almost never sits idle for long periods. Maybe one week a year if we're travelling for vacation, and in those instances I completely shut it down.

As for the suggestion that I start at the pump and work toward the group head, that's exactly what I've done this morning. God willing, she'll flow nicely once I get it all put back together. Just got off the phone with CC, new gaskets are enroute.

[cruiten]

<Slight Thread Drift: On>
If you are looking for a hardness test kit, I recommend the GH & KH General Hardness and Carbonate Hardness Test Kit from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. This test is accurate and very easy to use with clear results. This is the same test that is recommended in Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ at http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html,

The normal hardness strip tests that you dip into water did not work well for me because I could never quite match the colors, and the best that I could come up with was that my water hardness was somewhere in between 3 and 7.

Back to our regular programming...
<Slight Thread Drift: Off>

[JohnB]

If your water wasn't very hard (120ppm or less) & you added the CC softener kit you should be running close to 0ppm which is full soft. If so I'm surprised to see all your scale problems as I use water with a higher hardness level (45-50PPM )& have yet to see anything in the brew boiler. I feed hard well water into the line between the softener & carbon filters to raise the hardness to what I consider acceptable taste wise.

[mgannon]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to test it again.

[slo]

Just a comment on the exposed copper in the boiler. Don't worry about it. All these copper tube are not plated inside! It will not affect the taste and the corrosion of copper is not very fast. Yes it will corrode faster, but not that fast that it would be a problem for a very long time.

My two cents worth...

[mgannon]

Success! Got the machine back together this afternoon after receiving a few new gaskets from CC. Thank you, Jason! Everything went back together great, though it was a bit tricky rejoining the two halves of the group boiler - lining up the bolts with the cast aluminum spacer that goes in between the two halves and the chassis requires several hands (but can be done with two). I ended up de-scaling in several areas, most importantly probably being inside the volumetric sensor (and both screens and fittings), inside the group boiler, and inside the giclar (sp?) valve that's attached to the group head.

Thank heavens for this website and all the pictures, manuals, catalogs, and commentary available here. I would have never had the courage to tear this thing down without all of this backup.

All's well that ends well - I'm back to 25 second shots, plenty of crema, etc. Life is good.

[JohnB]

Glad to hear you are back up & running! I turned my Vivaldi off two days ago for a voluntary caffeine holiday. Might fire it back up tomorrow to try out the Brazil Moreninha Formosa Raisin I roasted Monday.