Something isn't right

[boldstep]

Hi guys,
I've been happy wit my v2 for almost 1 year now but as of the last few months I have not been happy with the taste of my espressos. At first I thought it was the beans so I returned to several favorites but was still disappointed. My barista skills have only been getting better over this past year (there was only one way to go!). I just changed the carbon and water softener out (and did flush them first). I always clean and back flush my machine after every use. I ran an experiment after suspecting the water quality and pumped 2 ounce of water out of the group head and allowed it to cool. I tasted it and it certainly doesn't taste good, although it isn't bad - but it does have a taste. I then tasted the supply filtered water before the machine (after the charcoal and soften) and it tasted great - just like clean water should. So this little experiment leads me to believe that something in the machine is imparting a taste on the water...? Although I can't be sure of that since I didn't taste the water out of the group head previously. Another possibility is that this is all in my head! Is anyone else experiencing this?

Thanks
Jason

[Endo]

Have you cleaned your grinder lately?

Did you remove your screens and dispersion plate and clean those as well?

Have you descaled recently?

I also did the taste test using a blank shot which was cooled down in the fridge...and compared it to the water straight from the tap. I can easily tell the one that went through the machine. It has a slightly less fresh taste to it. I get almost the same taste when I boil water in a pot. Not sure what it is exactly, but I doubt it is the source of your problem

[boldstep]

Thanks for your reply Endo!

I cleaned the grinder once, several months ago. JohnB helped me to disassemble it and clean the burrs.

I do clean the screens and dispersion plates once per week.

I haven't descaled the machine. Mine is plumbed in. How do you do that?

Also, I never used that Cafiza when I backflush. But I do backflush after every use. Do you think that is an issue?

Thanks
Jason

[JohnB]

Also, I never used that Cafiza when I backflush. But I do backflush after every use. Do you think that is an issue?

Thanks
Jason

Bingo! We have a winner. You should be doing a detergent backflush cleanse once a month. If you have never done it I would highly recommend starting now. I let the detergent mixture sit in the machine for a minute between backflushes so it has time to dissolve the crud. Take the drip tray cover off so you can see how much brown smooge comes out after the detergent has a chance to work. Considering how long its been you might consider doing 2 complete cleanings to make sure you get it all out.

You might also want to open the brew boiler & see if it needs a good cleaning. Easy to do, take a look at my descaling thread in the maintenance section.

[boldstep]

Cool, I will try it tonight. When you say you let it "sit in the machine", do you mean: do a backflush with the detergent, the three lights blink, press stop, wait for 1 minute and repeat?

I saw the thread you mentioned JohnB... as Shepard said: the thought of tearing it apart does terrify me but I may well do it if the detergent back flush doesn't do the trick.

Jason

[Endo]

Cool, I will try it tonight. When you say you let it "sit in the machine", do you mean: do a backflush with the detergent, the three lights blink, press stop, wait for 1 minute and repeat?

Jason

Actually, do 2 fast backflushes first with a 10 second wait in between until you get a good amount of white bubbles coming out. Then let the cleaner sit for a minute in the machine between the 10 second flushes. This way, you'll be sure you have the cleaner all the way through before you let it sit. Take the screen out of the drip tray so you can watch everything closely.

I usually do about five more flushes until the brown stuff disapprears. Empty the PF, and then do 3 or so water flsuhes to get out the cleaner.

The brown stuff coming out of the Vivaldi is VERY small compared to my other machines. A good sign the double screen is doing its job. For this reason, I didn't think it would have a huge effect on taste. Still, it's worth doing and definitely overdue.

[JohnB]

Cool, I will try it tonight. When you say you let it "sit in the machine", do you mean: do a backflush with the detergent, the three lights blink, press stop, wait for 1 minute and repeat?

I saw the thread you mentioned JohnB... as Shepard said: the thought of tearing it apart does terrify me but I may well do it if the detergent back flush doesn't do the trick.

Jason

Yes, do a backflush to get the detergent solution up in there & let it sit for a minute then do another & another letting it sit between each one. Let the 3 lights blink 3-4 times before cutting each backflush. After 3 cleansing b/fs dump the p/f & do another 3 or 4 to flush out the detergent dumping the p/f between each one. If you see a lot of brown oils coming out with the suds I'd consider doing the entire procedure again. Drop the diffuser block, clean & install clean screens. After a few flushes do another taste test & see if that solved your problem. After this a once a month detergent cleaning along with daily plain water backflushes & regular screen cleanings should be required maintenance. I swap out the screens & clean the block twice a week.

[JohnB]

The brown stuff coming out of the Vivaldi is VERY small compared to my other machines. A good sign the double screen is doing its job. For this reason, I didn't think it would have a huge effect on taste. Still, it's worth doing and definitely overdue.

This is normally true but he hasn't cleaned out the oils in a year so I would expect a pretty good build up.

[boldstep]

OMG, I feel so stupid that I ignored cleaning the unit properly over the past year! After using detergent and back flushing many times, all sorts of gunk started pouring out. Long (4 inches) strands of coffee nastiness came out!!! I continued this until the water came out clear. I will sample the coffee over the next week to see if it makes a difference. Thanks SO much for all of your expert guidance!
Btw, does the water that gets delivered to the group head during normal espresso operation have to pass through all of the gunk that I discovered?? I am not sure of the connections inside the unit...

[Endo]

OMG, I feel so stupid that I ignored cleaning the unit properly over the past year! ops

Not your fault at all. I had the same question when I first got my machine.

There is no mention of backflushing (detergent or even water) in my manual from LaSpaziale. They assume the double screen will take care of everything.

[JohnB]

Did you get it all out with one series of detergent flushes or did you have to do a second round? The build up starts at the group head so your water was flowing through some of it although the worst of it was probably in the 3 way valve.

[boldstep]

Hi JohnB,

I did four detergent flushes in all and each detergent flush was accompanied by five flushes. Then I did at least ten clear water flushes until I didn't see suds or grime. Now it is clear.

Thanks Endo for your latest reply too.

Jason

[oton]

So your shots tastes good now?

[boldstep]

I pulled some black cat this morning and it *was* much better. I know this because my girlfriend, who usually doesn't say much about my espressos unless they are standout, said WOW!That's something she hadn't said in several months!

[bugbus]

I backflushed my Spaz with cafiza today as well since the coffee started tasting iffy.

Of course I immediately noticed a remarkable improvement in taste!

I usually clean my Mazzer on cafiza days.

[michael]

how do you clean the mazzer; which mazzer do you have

[JohnB]

I don't know how Bugbus does it but I clean mine with a coffee brush & vacuum daily with the burrs in place & no hopper. After vacuuming out the throat I put the vac nozzle over the chute outlet & run the grinder briefly. Once every 3-4 weeks I remove the upper burr carrier & give it a thorough cleaning inside the burr chamber. If I'm feeling real ambitious I take both burrs off the mount & clean that area. If there is a build up of coffee oils on the housing I wipe it clean using rubbing alcohol as a solvent.

[mortenk]

Hi there.
You guys made me buy a VII, because of all your praise. Best thing I´ve bought for years. Thanks for that. But some day day I´ll have to backflush the machine like you guys describe. But the manual does´nt mention this (like you said earlier). Do I need a blind basket or what ? All solutions are welcome.

Best regards

Morten

[boldstep]

Backflushing is done with a black rubber puck that should come with your machine. You place that in your portafilter (either single or double) which will stop the water from flowing out. Just press the group head water button until three yellow lights flash...
BTW, you should be backflushing after you shut down/clean up the machine for the day. And then using the detergent stuff when backflushing on a weekly or biweekly basis.

[Endo]

Since you are in Europe, I think your machine does not include the rubber backflush disk (mine didn't). You'll probably need to find a blind basket. They can be hard to find in the 53mm size but you can order it from Chris Coffee (if you don't mind the shipping). Does someone else know of a European source?

[boldstep]

Why not just order the backflush puck itself from Chris' coffee? Shipping on that would be real cheap!

[caf4brains]

Years ago I made a backflush disk out of a rubber sink drain stopper that was about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and 1/16 th inch thick. It worked ok in my other espresso machine.

[mortenk]

Quick folks. thank you all.
It is right my machine did not come with a black rubber disc to act as a block for backflushing. Funny thing btw that US byers do...I guess I can fix one myself. I'll give it a shot, and post about it later this week.
Thanks again.

Best regards
Morten

[oton]

Does someone else know of a European source?

Yep. For example, hasbean.co.uk, sells the backflushing plate. In this site I bought my green coffee.

My Spaz did not come with backflushing plate. However the La Spaz technician who installed my machine gaves me a blind basket. Oh, and he gaves me the La Spaz backflushing instructions that they usually given to the bar's owners to stick it to the machine (it's adhesive).

[mortenk]

Hi Oton.
I´ve checked hasbeans site out. They sell some sort of a bumper puck to put under your pf when tamping. I dont think it fits the 53 mm. pt.
I guess i´ll have to keep on looking.

Morten

[oton]

Backflush plate it's here: https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/La-S ... Plate.html

Happydonkey have the blind basket: http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/spaziale-f ... skets.html

and coffeehit too: http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/CAT_ListCate ... le-Spares-

[mortenk]

Wow. Thanks a lot. I order right away.

Morten

[Endo]

Having tried both, I definitely prefer the blind basket over the rubber disk. The disk leaks.

[mortenk]

My thoughts exactly. It worked good on my recent E 61 machine, som I guess it will too on the VII.

Morten