Terroir Daterra Calabria

[DaveM]

Hi All,

I just opened my first bag of Terroir Daterra Calabria and am wondering if anyone has brewing tips for this coffee they'd care to share.

Thanks Much

[JohnB]

91*c seems to work well with Terrior's Calabria dosing 17-19g. Richard found that 5 sec of p/i worked well & I've had good luck with that setting.

[DaveM]

Thanks John! I'll lower the temp tomorrow morning and give it a whirl.

[Niko]

Tomorrow?!

...we want answers tonight!
You have all night to test that coffee and let us know what you think.
So hurry up and make a few doubles or triples.

[DaveM]

It was a very late night for me so I didn't have the opportunity to try this until about an hour ago. I made my wife two cappas and a straight double while I had an americano, a cappa, and a straight double. I/we like this coffee a lot . The straight shot had lots of chocolate flavor, was balanced, and had a wonderful aftertaste that lasted for almost 30 minutes. The beans were roasted on 11/10, received 11/11, then immediately put in the freezer until 2 days ago. Hard to imagine this could get any better but then I'm still learning so maybe I'll get lucky before it runs out. I've still got two more bags in the freezer to practice with .

[JohnB]

If you are freezing in the valved bags be sure to tape over the valves. Since you enjoy the Calabria I think you might also like this Daterra: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=922

[DaveM]

If you are freezing in the valved bags be sure to tape over the valves. Since you enjoy the Calabria I think you might also like this Daterra: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=922

I thought about taping over the valves but decided not to after reading Terrior's coffee storage suggestions:

"What we Recommend for Storage

Coffee packaged in one-way valve bags as we have described can be stored in a cool dry place, or stored in a fridge or freezer.

Once the bag has been opened, the remaining whole bean coffee can be stored until used up in any of the following ways:

1. Re-seal in the Aluminized Mylar bag by tightly folding the bag several turns, then folding over the wire-tie. Finally, gently squeeze out the air that was allowed to enter the bag when it was opened, taking care not to crush the one-way valve or to force out the air too quickly and damaging the valve. If your coffee was fresh, you will notice the bag will seem to re-fill with air over time. This is actually not air, but CO2 being emitted from the freshly roasted beans. The valve operates only when adequate back pressure needed to open the valve has been reached, i.e., until it is inflated to a pressure that will operate the valve and vent excess CO2 gas. This CO2 buildup SHOULD NOT be expelled, as CO2 is somewhat inert, and will keep the beans fresher longer, when compared to Air containing more oxygen.

1. For longer term storage beyond four or five days after opening, place the coffee in the freezer either packaged as described above, or, better, repackaged into zip-locked one-day portions. This way no condensation will occur as you pull out only what you need.

We do not recommend storing beans in an air-tight container under any circumstances, as it virtually guarantees that air from the room is not removed nor displaced from the storage medium, allowing plenty of oxygen to accelerate the staling process. Further, it does not provide for venting the CO2, so pressure will build up inside the jar.

It is also recommended not to re-freeze, or cycle the beans back and forth from the freezer to room temperature. This temperature cycling will also break down the beans, and accelerate aging."

From my research it doesn't sound like there is universal agreement on the best storage techniques FWIW, I do not switch coffees until I've finished the pound bag I've already opened. So far, a pound lasts us about 4-5 days, goes further during the week and quicker on weekends, when I'm around more and can make and drink more espresso.

Thanks for the lead on Atomic Cafe's datera. I love trying all the great coffees that are available but sometimes wonder if I'd learn more about espresso preparation if I stuck with one roast for awhile.

[JohnB]

I don't see anything there about NOT taping over the valve?? When frozen you will get little or no Co2 gassing out of the beans but it is thought that moisture might get in through the valve. I've been freezing roasted beans for the last 15 months & so far have tried vacuum bagging, small canning/jam jars & valve bags. Hands down vacuum bagging is the way to go! Both the jars & the valve bags should be used for short term storage only (2 weeks?) as they do not retain the freshness anywhere near as well as the v/b(Foodsaver) method.

[DaveM]

I don't see anything there about NOT taping over the valve?? When frozen you will get little or no Co2 gassing out of the beans but it is thought that moisture might get in through the valve. I've been freezing roasted beans for the last 15 months & so far have tried vacuum bagging, small canning/jam jars & valve bags. Hands down vacuum bagging is the way to go! Both the jars & the valve bags should be used for short term storage only (2 weeks?) as they do not retain the freshness anywhere near as well as the v/b(Foodsaver) method.

Hmmm? I read this section and thought it applied because a taped over valve on an unopened bag sounds like an air-tight container to me.

"We do not recommend storing beans in an air-tight container under any circumstances, as it virtually guarantees that air from the room is not removed nor displaced from the storage medium, allowing plenty of oxygen to accelerate the staling process. Further, it does not provide for venting the CO2, so pressure will build up inside the jar"

That said, I've read all your posts re: storage and it sounds as though you have a great system that works. Especially appealing for someone such as yourself who changes beans often. I'm loading up the hopper on the grinder and using a whole bag before before I open another. So far, we're going through a bag in 4-5 days.

[JohnB]

George is talking about not storing beans in an airtight jar on the counter as opposed to freezing them. If the beans were actively degassing in the freezer all my vacuum bags would be blown up like a balloon after a week or two. Also your unopened valve bags have no oxygen inside to get trapped by the taped over valve. The oxygen is sucked out by the bagging/sealing process & replaced by Nitrogen/Co2.

From the Terrior website:

"With in a few hours of roasting, the roaster will evacuate the bag of all air (containing oxygen), and flush it with inert gas such as nitrogen (to fill the voids that used to be taken up by air), and then thermally seal the bag. This is all done on a single, specialized food processing machine. An important detail is the addition of a one-way valve to let CO2, a natural by-product of fresh roasted coffee, to continue to escape, but not let air back into the bag. Without this valve, the bags will inflate hard as CO2 builds up considerable pressure, but cannot escape. CO2 emission is a sign of relative freshness, and can also be seen as it creates a brown froth during brewing. Why nitrogen? Have you ever gone to the farm stand for apples late in the fall, long after your apples at home are starting to get soft and mealy to find fresh, crisp tasting apples from the farm stand? Those apples were harvested at the same time as the ones in your fridge - nitrogen environment cold storage.

These sealed bags can be stored at normal room temperatures, or in a refrigerator or freezer. One interesting issue here is that with time, the CO2 will displace some of the nitrogen. Without getting too deep into the chemistry, it is the initial oxygen we are interested in removing, to preserve freshness. The CO2 also serves to displace the oxygen in this application. Nitrogen is widely used because it both displaces oxygen as well as inhibits the growth of fungus or bacteria, neither of which are a problem for roasted coffee. Displacing oxygen, however, seems to be a universally recognized benefit [for longer term coffee storage]. We have taste-tested our coffees packaged this way at 1-week increments stored at room temperature and found them to remain fresh tasting for many weeks, with little discernable difference from the same coffee roasted fresh to the same profile."

I hope they are right about the sealed bags retaining the beans freshness for "many weeks" as I have seen bags of their beans on the shelf at the Whole Foods Market in R.I. that were roasted MONTHS prior to my visit!

[JohnB]

One thing I forgot to mention is that the one way valve may not function properly in a freezer thereby allowing moisture laden air inside the bag.

[DaveM]

[quote="JohnB"]George is talking about not storing beans in an airtight jar on the counter as opposed to freezing them. If the beans were actively degassing in the freezer all my vacuum bags would be blown up like a balloon after a week or two. Also your unopened valve bags have no oxygen inside to get trapped by the taped over valve. The oxygen is sucked out by the bagging/sealing process & replaced by Nitrogen/Co2.

OK. Thanks for the clarification! I think I've been operating on the edge of espresso information overload for about two months now

If I decide to remove an unopened, valve-taped bag from the freezer a day or two before I expect to open it, when if ever, would you suggest I remove the tape?

[Niko]

I'd remove the tape once it hits the mainland again. Coffee will continue to degass at a normal pace as soon as it's out. I agree with John on the vacuum bagging - he's "Mr. Freezer"

[Endo]

Just got a couple of bags of Terroir.

I bought the Daterra (Brazilian) and the Ademe Bedane (Ethiopian Bonko Sidamo) at Caffe in Gamba in Montreal. It costs $20 a bag (pricey), but then again, I'm not going to complain since I really like that the owner (JF Leduc), brings in all the best 3rd wave roasts to try. Besides, $20 Canadian is only $15 US so I guess it's not too bad.

I'll try the Etiopian at 91C and the Daterra at 94C and see how it goes(as soon as I finish up my Klatch Belle Espresso....a tough act to follow!)

[JohnB]

Just got a couple of bags of Terroir.

I bought the Daterra (Brazilian) and the Ademe Bedane (Ethiopian Bonko Sidamo) at Caffe in Gamba in Montreal. It costs $20 a bag (pricey), but then again, I'm not going to complain since I really like that the owner (JF Leduc), brings in all the best 3rd wave roasts to try. Besides, $20 Canadian is only $15 US so I guess it's not too bad.

I'll try the Etiopian at 91C and the Daterra at 94C and see how it goes(as soon as I finish up my Klatch Belle Espresso....a tough act to follow!)

What was the roast date/sell by date on the bags? I just finished off the last of my Ademe & found that 14g @ 90-91*C worked best for me. Which Daterra did you get? So. Italian or Calabria? 94*C is too hot for either one but its your coffee.

[Endo]

What was the roast date/sell by date on the bags? I just finished off the last of my Ademe & found that 14g @ 90-91*C worked best for me. Which Daterra did you get? So. Italian or Calabria?

Daterra Calabria Style Espresso Roast from Cerrado region of Brazil. Roast Date 02/26/09. Best Before 05/27/09

Ademe Bedane North Italian Espresso Roast from Ethiopia in the Bonko Sidamo region: Roast and Best before dates the same as the Daterra.

Unfortunately, I still have 1lb of Belle Espresso open so I had to tape over the vent hole and freeze the Terroir for a week or so. Funny thing is the Ethiopian froze solid like a brick, but the Brazilian stayed loose and you can still feel the individual beans in the bag. Weird. Guess it has to do with the water content. Hope the freezing won't affect the taste.

[fiddlefly]

Hmmm ill have o go by In Gamba!!!!

[JohnB]

Daterra Calabria Style Espresso Roast from Cerrado region of Brazil. Roast Date 02/26/09. Best Before 05/27/09

Ademe Bedane North Italian Espresso Roast from Ethiopia in the Bonko Sidamo region: Roast and Best before dates the same as the Daterra.

Unfortunately, I still have 1lb of Belle Espresso open so I had to tape over the vent hole and freeze the Terroir for a week or so. Funny thing is the Ethiopian froze solid like a brick, but the Brazilian stayed loose and you can still feel the individual beans in the bag. Weird. Guess it has to do with the water content. Hope the freezing won't affect the taste.

Forget that Best By date as that is only there to keep retail suppliers happy. You froze it on the outside edge of its prime so don't expect it to be at it's best if you pull the whole bag out of the freezer & let it sit for days while you use it up. I'd suggest breaking it up into one or two day portions & only taking out what you need from the freezer. The Daterra Calabria works well in larger 16-17g doses but still prefers a lower temp (91*C-92*C).

[Endo]

I'll probably unfreeze only half at a time.

Do you know if Terroir uses Nitrogen when packing? I've heard some say that if the bag is Nitrogen packed and it's a good vent bag, it will stay good for 2 months if unopened. Their best before date seems to suggest that too.

Of course, I understand this topic has never really been settled.

[Richard]

Do you know if Terroir uses Nitrogen when packing?

Having personally observed their operation, no, they do not.

Nor would it make any difference. Freshly roasted coffee exudes carbon dioxide gas for X days after roasting, and that CO2 quickly displaces and forces the air from the bag. So long as the one-way valve is functioning correctly and the seal on the bag is intact, the beans are effectively under a CO2 blanket.

[JohnB]

Do you know if Terroir uses Nitrogen when packing? I've heard some say that if the bag is Nitrogen packed and it's a good vent bag, it will stay good for 2 months if unopened. Their best before date seems to suggest that too.

Of course, I understand this topic has never really been settled.

The Best By date is there for the retailer to ignore. I've seen Terroir on the shelf at Whole Foods markets that is well past that date. The beans continue to give off CO2 until they are completely stale & the vent lets it out. There is nothing about any vent bag that is magically going to keep beans fresh for months. By the 3rd week the party is pretty much over for most beans although there are a few exceptions.

[Endo]

Opened the Ethiopian today. Excellent shot. Very smooth. Caramel, lemon, peach. Tried 91C and 16g. Tasted a tiny bit sour (seems to be the the nature of the bean since it repeats at longer times and higher temps). Lots of contrast in the naked pour (hard to see it blond).

I prefer shots with a little more body. Looking forward to the Brazilian Daterra which I think will be a little more to my taste.

(Told you the Klatch was a hard act to follow).

[JohnB]

Opened the Ethiopian today. Excellent shot. Very smooth. Caramel, lemon, peach. Tried 91C and 16g. Tasted a tiny bit sour (seems to be the the nature of the bean since it repeats at longer times and higher temps). Lots of contrast in the naked pour (hard to see it blond).

I prefer shots with a little more body. Looking forward to the Brazilian Daterra which I think will be a little more to my taste.

(Told you the Klatch was a hard act to follow).

Who knows what temp you are really using since your machine has never been checked & set?? 16g is too much for that coffee. Try 14g & see what you think. This is a good coffee to play with the expanded temp setting range. Try 89-90*C, if your temp is close to accurate you should get a nice sweet shot.

[Endo]

I had a friend over this weekend with some HM Digital labratory equipment. We tested my machine for fun (temperature, hardness, etc). I'm convinced it is now within 1C.

(Also, if you are interested, a new Brita filter will lower your TDS by 50ppm....but that's another subject).

I played with doses from 15g to 18g. I'll try 14g but I'm not a big fan of all that headspace. I'll switch over to my 13mm dispersion plate and try it at 14g tomorrow.

[JohnB]

I played with doses from 15g to 18g. I'll try 14g but I'm not a big fan of all that headspace. I'll switch over to my 13mm dispersion plate and try it at 14g tomorrow.

I'll probably kick myself for asking but tell me your headspace theory. Note that the guys on H-B that really enjoy S/O espresso swear by 13-14g doses, headspace be damned. I've played around with different doses & always prefer 13-14g especially with Terroir's coffees, except the Calabria which isn't one of my favorites anyways.

[Endo]

I'll probably kick myself for asking but tell me your headspace theory. Note that the guys on H-B that really enjoy S/O espresso swear by 13-14g doses, headspace be damned. I've played around with different doses & always prefer 13-14g especially with Terroir's coffees, except the Calabria which isn't one of my favorites anyways.

The theory is that if you keep the headspace and weight to hole area ratio the same, then the shot will taste the same regardless of the dose.

I beieve this is the formula the designers try to follow when scaling to different baskets (single, double, etc). In a sense, it defines the basket geometry and to certain extent the dispersion (since you are also including headspace).

Since the headspace and weight are related, we are essentially saying the same thing. You are probably right in saying 14g is optimal (and would give the intended headspace), since most Italian designers (inlcuding LaSpaziale) design the machine around the single 7g and so the 14g is the logical double (scaled up).

I started off at 18g and had problems (as you mentioned). I am heading down towards your 14g with better results. I currently use 15.5g for most shots with excellent results with the thinner diffuser disk. I can go to 14g if I use the thick diffuser, but it changes the diffusion pattern slightly in my opinion (another variable).

I must say, one of the things I like lease about the Vivaldi is the diffusion. This was also the biggest problem with my Rancilio Silvia. (I think the E-61s are better and the GS3 is just awesome in this regard). I'd really like to see a nice "shower style" water pattern and no bolt head.

OK....now start kicking!

[JohnB]

As has been mentioned in past threads you can play with the water dispersion by changing the position of the lower screen in relation to the upper large screen. How much difference this will make I can't say & I'm sure it will never be as sweet as the GS3 set up.

I don't doubt that there are many things to love about the GS3 but I do think that it is unfair to compare a $2000-$2200 machine to one that sells for $6000-$7000. Personally I'm happy that the S1V2 has better(dryer) steam, a splash free drip tray cover, no vibration issues & a more effective pre infusion system when compared to the current stock GS3 and costs a hell of a lot less money.

As for your head space theory I'll just say that I find a 14g dose with the stock(S1V2) thin diffuser block & no pre infusion gives me the best tasting shots I get from this machine. Of course I am primarily drinking S/O espressos & I have never had the thicker block to experiment with. One problem I see with your set up is the fixed p/i which I definitely would not want on with the smaller doses. I've read that it gives approx 5-6 seconds of p/i to each shot?? I only set the p/i that high when I updose to 17-20g. Even with a short p/i I find the flavor of a 14g dose is negatively affected by the p/i.

[JohnB]

I had a friend over this weekend with some HM Digital labratory equipment. We tested my machine for fun (temperature, hardness, etc). I'm convinced it is now within 1C.
(Also, if you are interested, a new Brita filter will lower your TDS by 50ppm....but that's another subject).

So how did you measure the group water temp with the Lab equipment? Styro cup or some kind of adaptor? I can drop the hardness of my water to almost zero with the CC softener but I don't like the taste of soft water. I live with more frequent descaling (80ppm)as a trade off for better taste(imo).

[chas]

. I'd really like to see a nice "shower style" water pattern and no bolt head.

The bolt head issue is easy enough to resolve.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=61&p=595&hilit=bolt#p595

[JohnB]

. I'd really like to see a nice "shower style" water pattern and no bolt head.

The bolt head issue is easy enough to resolve.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=61&p=595&hilit=bolt#p595

Seems like a non issue with the thinner dispersion block although I think I may have a couple of those screws in my coffee stuff drawer.