Early blonding

[slippyfist]

Hi all,

Got my Spaz VII a few days ago and have put about a kilo of beans through it and am starting to get frustrated at the early blonding of my shots, which starts at about 6-8 seconds. I've tried up-dosing, down-dosing, playing with the coarseness and fineness on my Mazzer and varied the temperature between 93 and 95, but nothing seems to work. It's pouring consistently around nine bars and doesn't appear to be channeling and I even re-configured the shower screens but it didn't make any discernable difference. I feel like it should be easier to get consistently good pours out of such a good machine, but I'm struggling. I should probably add that I don't have the pre-infusion upgrade. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[chas]

Welcome to the S1 Cafe!

So is this a used VII? Any VII machine shipped since June should have Preinfusion.

BTW: You put this post in the wrong forum area. I'm going to move it to General Q&A.

[JohnB]

How old are the beans?

[slippyfist]

Machine was a week old when I bought it and the beans are about 11 days old. But I have used several different types of beans so I don't think that is the problem.

[Endo]

One of 4 possibilites (or combination). In order:

1- Beans not fresh.
2- Grinds too coarse.
3- Channeling (try WDT, adjust tamping pressure, nutation, different doses, etc).
4- Pressure too high.


"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (1859-1930), English author. Sherlock Holmes, in The Sign of Four, ch. 6 (1889).

[slippyfist]

OK thanks. The only variable there I haven't had a play with is the pressure. Is it hard to adjust? I couldn't find it in the manual.

[slippyfist]

I've now tried pulling shots at every pressure from 7.5 to 10.5 bar with the same results. Getting really frustrated and running out of beans!

[RapidCoffee]

One of 4 possibilites (or combination). In order:
1- Beans not fresh.
2- Grinds too coarse.
3- Channeling (try WDT, adjust tamping pressure, nutation, different doses, etc).
4- Pressure too high.

This is a puzzler, since you've played around with most of the obvious variables. I agree with this list (although I might rank "handle side of the PF" problems even higher). Running out of beans may be a blessing in disguise.

Consider starting over from a solid baseline:
* detergent backflush the S1
* set brew pressure to 9 bar
* set brew temperature to 94C
* clean burrs on Mazzer grinder, consider replacing if they are dull (what model Mazzer?)
* get freshly roasted beans from a reputable source (in general, purchase date != roast date)
* adjust grind to produce a 50ml pour in 25-30 seconds, dosing about 15g
* make sure grinds are evenly distributed in the basket prior to tamping
* make sure your tamp is level, and eliminate any tapping of the basket
* pay extra careful attention to all phases of puck preparation (grind, dose, distribution, tamp)

This should get you in the ballpark. Keep us posted.

[JohnB]

Have you ground fine enough to choke the machine? It certainly sounds like either you aren't grinding fine enough or your tamp is way too light for your grind. You aren't using decaf beans are you?

[Endo]

If you can make a video of your technique and shot, I'm sure we could figure it out a lot faster. Just a suggestion.

[chas]

OK thanks. The only variable there I haven't had a play with is the pressure. Is it hard to adjust? I couldn't find it in the manual.

You must be talking about the official LaSpaz Manual that ships with the machine. The "real" manual is a download which you can find at "VII/VII Mini Site" link at top right of every forum page or on the VIvaldi II page on the Chris Coffee website: http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... /vivaldi_2

Whoops! I should have read your next message after the one quoted above, which stated that you had tried pressures between 7.5 and 10. SO I guess between the two messages you figured it out!

With some beans types - especially when very fresh - the pour will look very blond because the S1 is generating so much crema. If I were you I'd let the actual shot taste be the final arbiter of your technique more than what it looks like.

[slippyfist]

thanks for all your help guys, took me a couple of kilos of beans but I've got it purring like a kitten. Still not mousetailing consistently enough, but pretty close!

[oton]

Could you post the changes you've made to improve the shots, please?

[slippyfist]

Still not 100 per cent right. I think I might need to fit the pre-infusion upgrade. Does anyone know where I get it from in Australia?

[JohnB]

Still not 100 per cent right. I think I might need to fit the pre-infusion upgrade. Does anyone know where I get it from in Australia?

Have you asked the supplier that sold you your Vivaldi? How about these guys: http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/home/ You could always order it from Chris Coffee.

[slippyfist]

Talk coffee is where I bought my machine but he can't help me and I think Chris Coffee only delivers to Canada and the States.

[Endo]

Talk coffee is where I bought my machine but he can't help me and I think Chris Coffee only delivers to Canada and the States.

I'd try Chris Coffee first, but if that doesn't work, you could try Joe at Caffe Tech in Edmonton. He's the only other guy I know that sells it. Kinda far for you, bu he might be willing to ship. He sells the p/i for $108.

www.caffetech.com

[JohnB]

Talk coffee is where I bought my machine but he can't help me and I think Chris Coffee only delivers to Canada and the States.

I believe if you email & ask they will ship overseas. If you strike out PM me as I ship parts overseas regularly.

[KimH]

I can confirm that chriscoffee ships outside US if you ask them. They have send some small size accessories to me in Europe a few times

[David23]

Could you post the changes you've made to improve the shots, please?

I seem to be in a "sour" slump right now, and would also love to hear the things you tried/changed to improve your shots. I have also tried different beans from local roasters, and am brewing at an indicated 94C on the MINI II. I plan to try the styrofoam cup test to get a better idea of the actual brewing temp. I bought the machine from CC, so I assume the temp offset is correct. I have altered the dose/tamp from choke to 20 sec., but have focused on 2 oz. shot at 25 sec. My naked portafilter has been indicating a little uneveness, and my doses are usually around 16-17g depending on the bean (weighing a level dose). Not sure how to get a consistent dose below the rim of the basket (tips encouraged on this topic), so I haven't gone to a lower dose. I have the preinfusion on my MINI.

[Endo]

Not sure how to get a consistent dose below the rim of the basket (tips encouraged on this topic), so I haven't gone to a lower dose.

Hey fellow Mini user! Here's something I developed for down-dosing. (Made from a printer tray). I use the straight side to level and then flip it over and rotate it in the grounds to consistantly down-dose. The extra grounds at the edge tend to add edge compression to lessen the doughnut effect during naked extractions. If you use a convex tamper, you'll also get a little extra headspace and clear the screen screw a bit better.

Down-doser

s_DSC01019.jpg (33.43 KiB) Viewed 28558 times

[JohnB]

Could you post the changes you've made to improve the shots, please?

I seem to be in a "sour" slump right now, and would also love to hear the things you tried/changed to improve your shots. I have also tried different beans from local roasters, and am brewing at an indicated 94C on the MINI II. I plan to try the styrofoam cup test to get a better idea of the actual brewing temp. I bought the machine from CC, so I assume the temp offset is correct. I have altered the dose/tamp from choke to 20 sec., but have focused on 2 oz. shot at 25 sec. My naked portafilter has been indicating a little uneveness, and my doses are usually around 16-17g depending on the bean (weighing a level dose). Not sure how to get a consistent dose below the rim of the basket (tips encouraged on this topic), so I haven't gone to a lower dose. I have the preinfusion on my MINI.

If you are weighing your dose I don't see why a smaller dose would be a problem. You can level the dose with a few sideways taps on the basket or just rest your finger on the edge & work your way around smoothing out the pile. If you move the basket around while dosing you can end up with a fairly level dose that won't need much grooming.

Sour usually means too cool but if you are getting it with different blends at 94*C it seems odd. Are you sure its sour & not bitter? I just ordered one of these to check brew temps on my different brewers & for possible use in my roaster:
http://webtronics.stores.yahoo.net/digtherwkpro.html I might modify one of my baskets & run some checks while pulling an actual shot.

[David23]

Endo,
Your underdosing tool looks good! I had thought about something like that, but hadn't tried it. I'll make one up and give it a shot :).

John, I still seem to be having what I perceive as sour issues. I had tasted what I think was bitter a while back, and this current taste seems more sour tasting than bitter. My tasting is indeed inexperienced, but I think my perception of sour is correct. I pulled a beautiful looking shot this am with some new Counter Culture Tuscano beans, 16g dose, excellent time, nice very centered cone, great striping, little flecks, etc. Just like the photos of how they are supposed to look, but when I sipped the shot it was still quite sour tasting, just like the others I have pulled from other beans lately. I cleaned my grinder, etc. Is it my tasting? I am pretty much sipping mostly crema, due to the nice pull. I keep reading about others and how their shots are full of other flavors, and a while back I was getting some of that also. I'm brewing at an indicated 94C. and running three blank shots thru the portafilter prior to the actual shot, waiting for the light to stop blinking between each one. I'm getting a bit discouraged.

[Endo]

I still seem to be having what I perceive as sour issues. I had tasted what I think was bitter a while back, and this current taste seems more sour tasting than bitter. My tasting is indeed inexperienced, but I think my perception of sour is correct. I pulled a beautiful looking shot this am with some new Counter Culture Tuscano beans, 16g dose, excellent time, nice very centered cone, great striping, little flecks, etc. Just like the photos of how they are supposed to look, but when I sipped the shot it was still quite sour tasting, just like the others I have pulled from other beans lately. I cleaned my grinder, etc. Is it my tasting? I am pretty much sipping mostly crema, due to the nice pull. I keep reading about others and how their shots are full of other flavors, and a while back I was getting some of that also. I'm brewing at an indicated 94C. and running three blank shots thru the portafilter prior to the actual shot, waiting for the light to stop blinking between each one. I'm getting a bit discouraged.

There are few more common things that happen for beginners. Sometimes, as you pointed out, there is a confusion between what is "sour" and what is "bitter". In your case, I don't think it is that.

You say you aim for 2oz in 25 seconds. This is fast (beginners often are surprised how slow a pour is actually required....think "thin mouse tail" not "rat tail"). This is also why you are getting early blonding. I usually aim for half the volume you described (1oz in 30 seconds actually). I would try grinding considerably finer and keeping it at 95C until you have your grind dialed in. My new Mazzer Super Jolly is set exactly on the mark indicated at the factory. All grinders are different, but you might want to try this as a good starting point. The Mini VIvaldi is very sensitive to grind, so you don't need to back off much from "choke" to get a good pour. Look for signs of smaller browner flecks on the surface of the crema for indications you are grinding fine enough. Don't worry about dosing yet. Just level off with a knife edge and tamp with 30 lbs ( a little nutation wiggle helps too).

I'm confident this will fix your problem.

[David23]

Endo,
Thanks for the tips, they are really helpful, and gives me some things to try out. I couldn't get to the computer all day, and was hoping for some tips when I got home to check, and once again you guys come through. I appreciate it. I will try the suggestions this evening (actually in about an hour after the MINI heats up) and again in the morning and post the results. Again, thanks.

[oton]

Not sure how to get a consistent dose below the rim of the basket (tips encouraged on this topic), so I haven't gone to a lower dose.

Hey fellow Mini user! Here's something I developed for down-dosing. (Made from a printer tray). I use the straight side to level and then flip it over and rotate it in the grounds to consistantly down-dose. The extra grounds at the edge tend to add edge compression to lessen the doughnut effect during naked extractions. If you use a convex tamper, you'll also get a little extra headspace and clear the screen screw a bit better.

s_DSC01019.jpg

LOL. Nice! DIY Scottie Callaghan's Tools!

[Endo]

LOL. Nice! DIY Scottie Callaghan's Tools!

Darn...there goes my patent. Oh well, simple idea I guess. Someone else was bound to have thought of it before.

[David23]

You say you aim for 2oz in 25 seconds. This is fast (beginners often are surprised how slow a pour is actually required....think "thin mouse tail" not "rat tail"). This is also why you are getting early blonding. I usually aim for half the volume you described (1oz in 30 seconds actually). I would try grinding considerably finer and keeping it at 95C until you have your grind dialed in. My new Mazzer Super Jolly is set exactly on the mark indicated at the factory. All grinders are different, but you might want to try this as a good starting point. The Mini VIvaldi is very sensitive to grind, so you don't need to back off much from "choke" to get a good pour. Look for signs of smaller browner flecks on the surface of the crema for indications you are grinding fine enough. Don't worry about dosing yet. Just level off with a knife edge and tamp with 30 lbs ( a little nutation wiggle helps too).

I'm confident this will fix your problem.

Ok, I tried a little finer grind, almost to the center of the factory center sticker on the MINI, bumped the temp to 95C, and pulled 2 ozs. at 46 sec. Took a while for the oozing globs of espresso to form a stream and cone, but it did, quite thin, and barely hanging together (the mouse tail your refer to??) Taste was FAR better, no sour, and maybe the tinyist bit of bitter, but really tiny. Made my wife the second shot into a capp, and she said it was the best so far, and that one pulled a little just a tad faster. I'll do more in the morning, but at first try, I think your tips are certainly a big improvement and in the right direction. I will explore subtle changes and try to continue improvement.

[RapidCoffee]

You say you aim for 2oz in 25 seconds. This is fast ... This is also why you are getting early blonding. I usually aim for half the volume you described (1oz in 30 seconds actually).

2oz in 25 seconds is almost exactly with the INEI recommends. Their recipe for a single shot is 7g coffee, 25ml espresso in 25 seconds. At the same brew ratio, a 16g double should produce 1.93oz espresso.

A 1oz double in 30 seconds is a classic ristretto pour. Nothing wrong with that, but a normale double should be closer to 2oz in 25 seconds. Why would this cause early blonding?

[chas]

I had to chuckle last night while watching the program Black Coffee on PBS. One segment showed a Starbucks new "barista" class. The instructor asked how long a correct pour should last. One of the students blurts out 10 seconds and the teacher responds, "no, 18 seconds"!

[Endo]

You say you aim for 2oz in 25 seconds. This is fast ... This is also why you are getting early blonding. I usually aim for half the volume you described (1oz in 30 seconds actually).

2oz in 25 seconds is almost exactly with the INEI recommends. Their recipe for a single shot is 7g coffee, 25ml espresso in 25 seconds. At the same brew ratio, a 16g double should produce 1.93oz espresso.

A 1oz double in 30 seconds is a classic ristretto pour. Nothing wrong with that, but a normale double should be closer to 2oz in 25 seconds. Why would this cause early blonding?

Yes. I know INEI "recommendations". They are a good starting point, but then you have to trust your taste. I found 2oz normales in 25 sec on the Mini Vivaldi always taste sour. Perhaps a characteristic of this machine? Does the regular rotary Vivaldi do better with normales?

Funny enough, my wife also can pick this out in her lattes as well (so you know it MUST be very pronounced). I used to do her lattes with 60ml (2oz) in 30 sec but now I use use closer to 40ml in 30 sec and she prefers the flavor much more (much less sour).

Another funny thing about the Mini Vivaldi: It is VERY sensitive to grind (as I have pointed out before). This next statement will make a few people go nuts but I'll say it anyway: It's harder to get a great Mini Vivaldi shot than it is to get a great Silvia shot. The machine is much more sensitive to all the typical variables. But when you do find that sweet spot on the Mini Vivaldi, the taste is much better than the Silvia's best. I'll add that it is easier to consistantly get a "good" shot on the Vivaldi than the Silvia.

Call me crazy of you like. But I stand by this claim.

This is not a big critcism, since the people that are looking to get the "maximum" from the Mini Vivaldi (like me), will enjoy the challenge. The people who never buy a naked PF and simply want a good espresso and fast milk drinks, will also be happy making consistantly "good" shots.

I'm playing with the p/i now. I'll see if that changes anything, but my first couple of shots didn't do much to change this grind sensitivity claim.

[David23]

You say you aim for 2oz in 25 seconds. This is fast ... This is also why you are getting early blonding. I usually aim for half the volume you described (1oz in 30 seconds actually).

2oz in 25 seconds is almost exactly with the INEI recommends. Their recipe for a single shot is 7g coffee, 25ml espresso in 25 seconds. At the same brew ratio, a 16g double should produce 1.93oz espresso.

A 1oz double in 30 seconds is a classic ristretto pour. Nothing wrong with that, but a normale double should be closer to 2oz in 25 seconds. Why would this cause early blonding?

Yes. I know INEI "recommendations". They are a good starting point, but then you have to trust your taste. I found 2oz normales in 25 sec on the Mini Vivaldi always taste sour. Perhaps a characteristic of this machine? Does the regular rotary Vivaldi do better with normales?

Funny enough, my wife also can pick this out in her lattes as well (so you know it MUST be very pronounced). I used to do her lattes with 60ml (2oz) in 30 sec but now I use use closer to 40ml in 30 sec and she prefers the flavor much more (much less sour).

I will once again preface my comments by admitting my very limited experience, but intense interest. I pulled shots again this am, 45 sec. for 2 ozs. The characteristics were much the same as I mentioned earlier, and the taste once again, without the sour I have had with previous 25 sec. 2 oz. shots. The color of the longer shot is not as light, the crema also darker with more striping and faintest flecks. (wish I had taken a photo of the pour, as it was very good looking) This afternoon I will loosen up the grind a minute amount and hope for about 35-40 secs for 2 oz. and see what difference that makes. I am still wondering if the improvement is the higher temp, or the slower pull. I will try to experiment with temp also as I settle in to a good time. BTW, I am using Counter Culture Toscano for these shots.

[Endo]

I will once again preface my comments by admitting my very limited experience, but intense interest. I pulled shots again this am, 45 sec. for 2 ozs. The characteristics were much the same as I mentioned earlier, and the taste once again, without the sour I have had with previous 25 sec. 2 oz. shots. The color of the longer shot is not as light, the crema also darker with more striping and faintest flecks. (wish I had taken a photo of the pour, as it was very good looking) This afternoon I will loosen up the grind a minute amount and hope for about 35-40 secs for 2 oz. and see what difference that makes. I am still wondering if the improvement is the higher temp, or the slower pull. I will try to experiment with temp also as I settle in to a good time. BTW, I am using Counter Culture Toscano for these shots.

Sounds like you have the grind almost dialed in now. But, I think you may be letting your shots run a bit too long. You suspect you may be getting some blonding towards the end of the shot which will hurt the taste. The shot should be stopped as soon as the the tiger striping disappears. Try the same thing (no change in grind) but stop at 30 sec. You'll only get 1.5oz or so, but I suspect the taste will be even better.

[RapidCoffee]

Yes. I know INEI "recommendations". They are a good starting point, but then you have to trust your taste. I found 2oz normales in 25 sec on the Mini Vivaldi always taste sour. Perhaps a characteristic of this machine? Does the regular rotary Vivaldi do better with normales?
...
Another funny thing about the Mini Vivaldi: It is VERY sensitive to grind (as I have pointed out before). This next statement will make a few people go nuts but I'll say it anyway: It's harder to get a great Mini Vivaldi shot than it is to get a great Silvia shot.

You may simply prefer ristrettos. As I said before, nothing wrong with that.

Nope, haven't had any trouble with normales, but I'm using a world-class grinder. The Robur makes everything pretty damn easy. I haven't noticed the grind setting sensitivity either.

Seems unlikely to be a vibe vs. rotary pump issue. If anything, the Mini's vibe pump should provide a "poor man's preinfusion". Rotaries ramp up the pressure much more rapidly than vibe pumps. One suggestion: be careful with updosing. I find taller baskets (e.g. triples) to be more prone to channelling, not less. Reducing the dose so that the tamped puck is well below the ridge line may help.

FWIW, it's easier to get pretty pours on my E61 Vetrano than the S1. I plan to order the p/i unit too; we'll see if that makes any difference.

[Endo]

You may simply prefer ristrettos. As I said before, nothing wrong with that.

I think that is true.

If anything, the Mini's vibe pump should provide a "poor man's preinfusion". Rotaries ramp up the pressure much more rapidly than vibe pumps.

True. But for some reason my naked pours look like the vibe is ramping up quicker than the rotary. I can't explain this.

One suggestion: be careful with updosing. I find taller baskets (e.g. triples) to be more prone to channelling, not less. Reducing the dose so that the tamped puck is well below the ridge line may help.

I haven't explored doses smaller than 16g yet. I'll try that next and see what happens.

FWIW, it's easier to get pretty pours on my E61 Vetrano than the S1. I plan to order the p/i unit too; we'll see if that makes any difference.

So I'm not alone on this. That's good.

I understand taste is really what we're after, but "pretty" is a good indicator that everything has been done correctly. I will eventually just give up and live with it. But right now, I want to see how pretty I can get it.

By the way, Vetrano's are now $200 off at CC. Only $1795. Sweet.

[JohnB]

By the way, Vetrano's are now $200 off at CC. Only $1795. Sweet.

They were only $1650 13 months ago when I bought mine & that included the optional Sirai pressure stat.

[RapidCoffee]

I believe it's $1600 after the discount. And you still have to shell out $60 more for the Sirai, plus another $35 for the drain kit. IIRC I paid about $1300 for mine, but that was three years ago. Love the Vetrano, but it seems pricey at $1800.