Why the latest S1's are quieter than the first ~50-60 sold

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chas
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Why the latest S1's are quieter than the first ~50-60 sold

Post by chas » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:40 pm

In various threads on this forum, owners of the new, quieter S1s have compared their machines to the photos of mine on the S1 Web Site and we have also verbally compared notes. We could find no differences. I was about to ask new users to check out how their motors were mounted as this seemed to be the only thing left that might make a difference, yet wasn't going to be obvious in a casual comparison.

Before I could do this, I got a call from Chris Nachtreib fresh back from an overseas trip to the La Spaziale factory. He posed this question to the engineers. Turns out it IS the motor mounts that have changed. Chris told me that the new ones use softer rubber than the old. I received a new set earlier this week. I was about to put the first new one on and decided to punt and keep it the same for now after I noticed that there is more difference that just a softer rubber part.

1) I didn't observe much difference in the rubber softness between old and new. I was expecting an obvious, noticeable difference.
2) The threaded bolt part that goes through the bottom of the chassis is much skinnier that the old one which means the hole in the chassis which was sized right for the old bolt is much too big for the new one.
3) The brass nut which replaces the old standard nut has a cylindrical shoulder. I assumed that this corrects for the larger hole by fitting around the bolt and going through the hole. However, it is too large for the hole. So I'm guessing that this means that the mounting holes may need to be drilled to a slightly larger size to accomodate this feature.

It seems like the chassis holes in the current unit must either be smaller or larger than in the older units. Upgrading an older unit seems to mean some drilling to the larger size is in order. To me that means a complete disassembly of the unit down to the chassis so that the drilling doesn't get metal chips lodged into the electronics and blow something up in the unit.

So my current thought is to forget it. My unit pretty quiet anyway. I was OK with trying new bolts with softer rubber washers but surgery is another thing.
Chas
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Is this thing on?

Post by chas » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:31 pm

Wow! I finally called and talked to Chris' tech Chris Kramer and found out the proper way to install the new S1 motor mounts today. It took a little trial and error to figure out how to get the new mounts installed given the tight spaces involved and my aging, fat fingers. After I got it all back together and let it heat up, I flipped on the switch. My first thought was that I hadn't gotten something back together right, but then I noticed that the shot was coming out just fine.

I was stunned by the difference. I didn't think my S1 was THAT noisy before but now it's not just quiet, it's "Is this thing on?" quiet. The sound of the hot water running through the group is louder than the motor!

I am going to document my R&R procedure for the motor mounts on my S1 Web Site before the end of the week. Once I let Chris review it for accuracy, I'll let you know and provide a link here. For anyone that feels competent to handle it after reading my instructions, you'll be able to call Chris Coffee and order a set at no charge.
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Post by chas » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:36 pm

OK, it's documented here. If you use IE you'll even hear a recording of what my S1 sounds like after installation of the new motor mounts.

http://www.s1cafe.com/s1v1/S1MotorMounts.php

Late breaking update from Chris. Unless your serial number is lower than 252263 you don't need to do this since you already have thew new mounts.
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Post by rhinoevans » Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:54 am

I have got the new motor mounts in the mail from Chris, although I just purchased some dynomat to insulate for noise. Do I need to do this now?

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Post by chas » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:38 am

It's hard for me to be authoritative since I already had the duramat in when I did the mount upgrade. But even with the duramat installed the difference with the new mounts was extreme. So my guess is that you will NOT need the duramat after you install the new mounts.
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Post by rhinoevans » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:52 pm

On the instructions for the motor mounts, does the picture of the NEW Motor Mount show the brass fitting with the round part in the wrong direction?

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Post by chas » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:41 pm

I assume you're talking about the photo on my S1 website with the photo of the new motor mount next to the older motor mount. If so, the answer is "No". this photo is correct. The round part goes down from the top through the motor mount hole. Then you grab the square part with the wrench and tighten it up against the rubber bushing. The std hex nut goes on the bottom side under the chassis.
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Post by rhinoevans » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:13 pm

What does this mean then??

NOTE THAT THE CYLINDRICAL PART OF BOLT (A) GOES THROUGH THE MOUNTING HOLE ON THE MOTOR BASE.

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Post by chas » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:09 pm

Sorry. Make that "NOTE THAT THE CYLINDRICAL PART OF NUT (A) GOES THROUGH THE MOUNTING HOLE ON THE MOTOR BASE."
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Post by rhinoevans » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:44 pm

Just did the motor mounts replacement...UNBELIVEABLE...no need for any other trick or insulation. Took about 30 minutes..a little bit of a pain, but well worth it. Now the S1 doesn't sound like a lathe machine starting up every morning.

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Post by rhinoevans » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:34 am

I still can not get over how quiet the S1 is Now. Seems like the machine is not even ON, it is so quiet. Taking dynamat back to Best Buy. NO need.

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Post by chas » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:50 pm

Amen. When I first fired up my S1 after the upgrade I thought I must have knocked a wire off the motor. Then I noticed that shot was coming out just fine.
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bobroseman

Post by bobroseman » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:13 am

Dan Kehn and I did mine. Definately easier with 4 hands instead of two. I, too, cannot get over the difference in the machine sound. It now sounds like the machine that I thought I bought.

Bob

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Post by admin » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:21 am

How did you hook up with Dan? I thought you lived in Atlanta and Dan lived in North Carolina?!?

BTW: From discussions before I changed out my motor mounts I was under the impression that the rubber on the old mounts was hard and the rubber on the new mounts was soft and that made the difference. However, the rubber on the old and new mounts not only were both soft but they seemed equally soft.

The most different part of the mount design is the brass nut that goes on top of the motor mount with the square head and the cylindrical sleeve that goes through the hole. I have a sneaking suspicion that the cylindrical sleeve is greatly responsible for the quieting but I can't be sure.
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bobroseman

Post by bobroseman » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:21 am

I took my machine to EspressoFest'04 in Durham on Saturday and then took it over to Dan's on Sunday morning. It took a couple of minutes to change the mounts out but evidently we had one hose in a marginal position and that resulted in the overload tripping. No problem though I took the back off and repositioned the tube and all has been well.

I don't think that you can judge the mounts by feel. The critical parameter is their resonant frequency which is a function of both material and dimension. You'd have to put the mounted motor on a vibration analyzer to see what is happening. In short, if the motor is vibrating at the resonant frequency of the metal frame there is coupling. If you change the frequency of motor vibration just a few Hz so that it no longer sets up a sympathetic vibration in the frame and ,viola!, blessed silence. The frame is pretty stiff so I'm guessing that 20 hz or so is all that is needed - not a big change in frequency.

Bob

barjohn

Post by barjohn » Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:42 am

I finally got around to installing the motor mount kit. Wow! What a difference. I really like how quiet it is now. I can't wait for the drip tray with drain. I hope it is as much fun to do as this was (yea sure :lol: ) Getting the old ones out is the easy part, getting the new ones in, especailly the fron ones(near the drip tray) is the hard part as there is no way to get a wrnech on the top of the motor and do anything. I just tightened by finger as tight as I could, then tightened the bottom nut.

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Post by chas » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:55 pm

That's the way I did it, too. When I sent my instructions to Chris-tech for review, his only comment was that the nuts on the top of the pump should be tightened more than hand tight as I had indicated that I had done. So I changed the instructions to reflect that even though I didn't and couldn't for the reason you noted.

To get those front nuts wrench tight you'd need something like a small metric socket on a flexible gooseneck thingee.
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