Air out of group?

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clumeng
Latte
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Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:03 am

Air out of group?

Post by clumeng »

Recently I'm getting air (?steam) mixed in with the water coming out of the group of my Vivaldi SII. This was certainly not happening previously. I don't think that the temperature is substantially off (by taste at least) but don't have a great way to check. I've back flushed and it didn't fix the problem. Steam is fine and pump pressure hasn't changed from what I can tell.

Thoughts or ways to further troubleshoot? Is this something with the group boiler not filling completely? I've been pondering a descale (3yo machine and never done one but have been using soft water) - is it time?
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Red Vivaldi II (c2009)
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MDL
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Re: Air out of group?

Post by MDL »

My S1 Version 2 has been in use since April 2007 and I have never descaled the group boiler (the steam boiler has been descaled multiple times). Since water is constantly flowing through the group and the group boiler does not boil the water to make steam scaling should be limited (or so I reason).

To me it sounds like you must have a temperature issue if you are generating steam in the group boiler.
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chas
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Re: Air out of group?

Post by chas »

Just to rule out the obvious - what are your current group boiler temp and offset settings? Before we look into possible HW failures you should definitely check into whether the offset value got inadvertently changed somehow. Also, check on whether your machine is in V1 or V2 mode. I know I somehow got my V1/V2 modes switched more than once when I had a V2.

How to check or change these items is covered in the latest version of the manual which you can download here, if you don't already have a copy:

V2 Rev G Owner's Manual
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
swimmer

Re: Air out of group?

Post by swimmer »

I'm newly returned to this forum after a long absence....

My 8 yr old S1 is having the same issue of steam mixed with water coming from the group head.
'We'' have talked with Chris's Coffee and they said there could be a blockage in one of the lines and
the boiler is not filling properly. My hubby has gone over all the lines twice and found nothing.
He's replaced the water filter and now he's even put in a new pump. Problem persists.

Were you able to fix this problem and if so, what was it?
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chas
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Re: Air out of group?

Post by chas »

FIrst things first. You mentioned that your S1 is 8 years old. It's been just about that long since the V2 was released to replace the S1. So do you really have the original S1 with the round pressure gauge or the V2 with the square pressure gauge? Alternately, are your temperature lamps in increments of 5C or 1C?
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
swimmer

Re: Air out of group?

Post by swimmer »

It's the orig S1 w/ round gauge and 5 deg increments. The V11 came out a few months after I bought it.
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chas
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Re: Air out of group?

Post by chas »

I am not sure you have air in the group or boiler. It seems like the temp/pressure in the boiler is too high. You'll note when pulling hot water the same thing happens normally there. That's because the hot water boiler is hotter than boiling but under pressure so that it doesn't boil...until the water is released. Then it flash boils as the pressure is released when it exists the boiler. It seems the same this is happening in your machine with the group boiler.

There are two areas to check first.
1) The actual temperature setting of your boiler. You probably are seeing the correct lamp lit for what you believe to be your actual set temperature but you have to factor in the offset. It is always possible that you inadvertent made the button presses to get into the fine temp offset mode and changed your offset without realizing it. The offset can be +-3C. SO if you want to have a group temperature of 92C you can either set the coarse temp as displayed on the front panel to 95 then do an offset of -3C or you can do 90C with an offset of +2C. Doing this is covered in the latest version of the manual available here: S1 Owner's Manual
2) Expansion valve setting. The expansion valve prevents the boiler pressure from exceeding 12 bar by opening briefly and releasing a small amount of water into the drip tray. It's possible that mineral deposits have built up so that it isn't opening at all any more. If it is opening you should see a few drops at least come out every time the group boiler comes on. How to adjust this is also in the manual.

If both of the above are set up correctly, the most obvious part to swap out next is the group temperature probe. It is getting pretty old and has been 100% submerged in water for almost 8 years. It might be started to degrade by reading low which would have the net effect of making the boiler water too hot.

BTW: Since your original pump turned out to be OK, you might want to try to sell it in the Swap Meet section of the S1Cafe and see if you can recoup some of the money. Now that you have a new one in the machine, it will likely last the remaining life of your machine.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
swimmer

Re: Air out of group?

Post by swimmer »

UPDATE: Apparently our pump was bad or going bad. There was lots of 'dark dust-like stuff' in it. Unfortunately, replacing the pump and adjusting the expansion valve did not solve the problem.
Talked to Tim at Chris's Coffee and he thought it was either the Tri-AC (part # 7388) or the Temp Sensor for the Coffee Boiler (#7540). I was not in the mood to continue to trouble shoot one part at a time so ordered both parts. Parts arrived yesterday, hubby was a dear to come home early to do the install and...
VOILA ! NO MORE STEAM coming from the group head. Immediately the machine sounded 'right' - no more hissing. Since both parts were replaced we have no idea which one was the culprit (I suspect Chas was right and it's the Temp Sensor...), but the extra part put us at the free shipping level :)

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but I never had any error lights.
And....7 years ago during an expansion valve R&R, we purchased the part that looks like a portafilter with a gauge attached. We've now used it a total of two times. If anyone lives in the Nor Cal East Bay area and would like to borrow this, it's avail. We're in Lafayette...
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chas
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Re: Air out of group?

Post by chas »

I'm glad to hear that you are back up and running normally. I am sticking with my theory that the actual problem was the temperature sensor. The only failure mode of the triac anywhere in the right direction would be for it to fail on all the time. Your problems in that case would have been more severe plus that probably would have triggered an alarm.

Definitely keep the old triac board. Sooner or later the triac board on the steam boiler will probably fail if you keep the machine long enough. Then you'll have a spare ready to go since both boards are identical.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
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