Steam Boiler Overheating

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Zzyzx
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Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:46 am

Hi All,

I have the La Spaziale Vivaldi II that was purchased in 2006. Up until now it has been problem free.

I cleaned the steam boiler a few weeks ago and put it all back together. When I turned it back on, it just heating up and blew steam out of the release valve at the top of the boiler. So I called Chris Coffee and they told me, it was the temp sensor. I replaced the temp sensor and still the machine was overheating a blowing steam eventually out of the release valve of of the top. I called Chris Coffee back and this time they told me the pressure relief valve was defective and needed to be replaced. I just replaced the pressure relief valve and still the machine appears to be overheating. The boiler gauge is maxing out in the red. I turned off the machine when I saw it was redlining.

This is starting to get expensive and was wondering if anyone had any ideas on where I should turn next?

Thanks!

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by richardcoffee » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:20 pm

How badly did it need cleaning? It seems to me too. I know this doesn't help you, but it seems to me, when folks clean their boilers, it leads to unexpected problems for no apparent reason. Mine is 2 years old now and I'm wondering if I should clean the boilers.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:27 pm

It wasn't too bad actually. I do have a softwater conditioner and also run a 10 micron filter on my cold water line into the machine

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:15 pm

Can you post a good close up photo of the top of your boiler so we can see how all the wiring is currently connected?

Typically the problem you are having is due to the temp sensor failing. Of course if it fails open or shorted it should have triggered a shut down alarm and turned off the machine. Similarly there is a thermal breaker on top of the boiler that should also have triggered if the boiler got that hot. On the other hand that could be a final fail safe that would only kick in if the pressure relief valve failed.

Then there is the possibility that the Triac fails in an always on state, but this should also trigger a shut down alarm. So we need to see what could cause this and not trigger one of the pre-defined alarms that is supposed prevent this from happening. Checking your wiring is step one.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:23 pm

Hi Chas,

Pleas see attached photos. Just a note: the temp sensor and the pressure relief valve were just installed.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:53 pm

I would like to add a little more information:

My boiler light stops blinking just before the needle hits red, so It looks like the temp sensor might be working correctly. About 10 seconds later it continues into the red and doesn't stop. Hope this helps.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:23 pm

That is a potentially important piece of information. The controller board sends a signal to the triac to turn off and also turns off. This would indicate that the temp. sensor and the controller board are working correctly. It points to the triac being stuck on, probably internally shorted which is possible that you static zapped the triac while handling the heater element wires.

Before you plunk down more money and find out that it is really something else, there are a couple of tests you can make.

1) Press the button to turn off the Steam Boiler. If the triac is shorted on the boiler will heat and even overheat regardless.
2) The other test would be to temporarily swap the output wires from each triac board. This would make the group boiler overheat and the steam boiler work correctly if the steam boiler triac is really shorted on.

However, test one is much easier and should tell the tale without resorting to test 2.

As I mentioned in a previous post there is an alarm that should occur and turn off the machine and flash a code if the steam boiler exceeds 140C. However, it is possible that the pressure release valve opens before this temperature is reached. Otherwise, you should be getting that alarm.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:38 pm

As soon as I plug in the machine and leaving it in the off position, I can feel the boiler heating up. Does that mean it's a bad triac?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:18 pm

Yes, the triac is shot. I assume you will have to purchase a whole new triac board if they still sell them. Otherwise, you may have to upgrade to the new fanless Solid State Relay option they use on the current machines. If you are really electronically savvy you may be able to read the part number off the existing triac, order a replacement from some place like Mouser.com, then solder in the new one.

CCS didn't adequately troubleshoot the problem with you unfortunately, They just went with the sensor since it is the most likely option to fail. They really fell down on the job by having you buy a new pressure release valve. It could have only been faulty if it was popping open when the steam pressure was normal. The fact that is was popping open when the machine was red-lined certainly isn't an indication that it was bad, just the opposite.

If you want to be absolutely positive that the triac is bad, you can try the 2nd option that I posted previously. In that case, if you turn the Steam Boiler off it will no longer come on and instead the group boiler will heat up to its set point and keep on going since the "bad triac" is now connected to the group boiler. Of course, if you try that, stay right with it and kill the power as soon as you see the group boiler go past the set temperature.

While you wait for a replacement part, your best bet is to unplug the steam boiler at the triac and just use the machine for espressos, Americanos, etc.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:30 pm

I'm not sure what to look for in regards to the triac board. Replacing the other parts have been fairly easy up to this point, but am lost when it comes to the triac board. I'll have to give Chis Coffee a call on Monday to inquire about that part. Any idea on what that part will cost Chas?

I appreciate all the help on this Chas and hopefully will be able resolve soon.

Thanks!

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:39 pm

Here's a post from Endo with the price. This includes a dual module which replaces both triac boards and a new wiring harness to connect it to the controller board. Of course, the fan comes out with this new design, no additional cooling is required.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1593&p=18655&hilit ... lay#p18655
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:11 pm

Great, thanks again!

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:49 am

A new Triac board is on the way. Hopefully 3rd time will be a charm ;-)

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:03 am

So they so still sell replacement triac boards and not require you to upgrade to the new dual SSR! That's a good deal. Even though the SSR solution is nicer, it would be harder to install and probably more pricey than a single triac board. How much does a triac board go for?
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:38 pm

It will be $35.00 for the replacement Triac board. I'm pretty relieved I don't have to install SSR board.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by peter » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:03 pm

Zzyzx wrote:It will be $35.00 for the replacement Triac board. I'm pretty relieved I don't have to install SSR board.
A perfect time to install the spacers under the fan, if you haven't already.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:29 am

Spacers? I was not aware of an issue with that. What does this do?

Thanks!

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:50 am

Well, I replaced the triac board. The boiler no longer heats up when the machine is off, but as it heats up it now stops and the 3 lights come on. 96, 97, Econ. Any ideas?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:19 pm

That means the steam boiler temp probe is bad. Wasn't that your original problem? You might want to double check that the connectors are seated properly.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by Zzyzx » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:29 pm

That's exactly what is was Chas, the connection to the heating element came loose when I put it all back together. It's now all working good again :grin: Thanks for the help.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by slo » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:15 pm

I have been following this saga with interest but with nothing helpful to add so I did not interrupt with annoying useless comments.
But now that everything is resolved I am glad that everything is back in working order for Zzyzx.
And thank you to Chas for educating all of us on trouble shooting the Vivaldi!
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by bgour » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:55 pm

I woke up this morning to discover my V1 steam pressure gauge pegged on the high side, about 3.25 bar. (!) I shut the machine off and found that the gauge went down only slightly, so it's likely been damaged at this point.

Gauge aside, I continued trying to figure out what caused this. From cold, the machine heats up as expected, everything normal: once the brew boiler has heated the steam side kicks in, with flashing light and fan, heating sounds, etc. When the brew side kicks in the steam side stops heating (audibly) so this doesn't seem to be a fused triac issue. After a little while heating I eventually hear the vacuum breaker do it's sputtery seal thing and the heating continues and at about the right time, the heating stops. All normal.

So I'm left wondering what could have caused this. There must have been a high-pressure event for the gauge to get pegged there. I'm not sure what safeguards there are to prevent this, but reading this thread it sounds like there's a temp sensor and a over-pressure valve. It seems like both would have to go to get the results I have..? Perhaps the over-pressure went long ago, unnoticed, followed recently by the temp sensor? But my temp sensor does appear to be working if I'm interpreting things correctly. Perhaps it's intermittent?

Should I replace both the temp sensor and the over-pressure valve?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:18 pm

Typically the gauges don't fail unless jarred or perhaps some event occurs that causes them to peg, but I suppose they can rarely go for no apparent reason. The fact that your OPV didn't open and it didn't sound like you had any actual evidence that an over pressure event occurred other than from the gauge makes me think you should rule that out first. Be sure the the boiler is completely cold so that the pin on the vacuum breaker is down. If need be, push it down with a screw driver after the boiler is completely cold.

If the needle isn't exactly on zero you should replace the gauge. If not, based on the normal failure mode of the gauge, wherever the needle rests when the boiler is cold is the "new" zero point. When the boiler is heated you can subtract that value from the actual reading to get the real steam boiler pressure. This can get you by temporarily until you obtain and install a replacement gauge.

If you are still getting a high reading you are back to the likelihood of it being the temperature sensor, especially since it sounds like you have ruled out the triac. The OPV valve can't be the cause of the problem but if it is bad it could prevent you from being protected from a problem.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by bgour » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:44 pm

The needle sits far from zero when cold, in fact only about a half bar from the very end. When it reaches what I think is normal pressure, it's already pegged. So, definitely time for a new gauge.

New info is that my wife reports there was a puddle under the machine a couple of days ago. So a possible explanation could be that the temp sensor failed intermittently, the boiler overheated and the OPV did what it could (causing the puddle) until it failed, clogged, etc.

It's a theory. I'll keep an eye on it while a new meter heads my way.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by bgour » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:17 am

I think this is a different issue than what I originally thought. Despite being fully up to temp/pressure, the steam wand releases mostly liquid. I can fill a 20 oz. pitcher with it. Almost as if the boiler is way overfilled. And it might be my imagination but it seems to cycle refills more frequently as well.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:12 am

In that case there must be an issue with the water level sensor. There are two easy-to -fix issues which are the likely culprit before actual replacement.

1) Sometimes the water level sensor probe, which is just a thin metal rod, rides up and literally needs to be pushed back down.
2) The sensor rod is covered with minerals. In this case you need to remove it and soak it in either citric acid solution if you have it or even vinegar for a couple of hours until you can scrub all the deposits off.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by bgour » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:25 pm

Thanks. So I took a look at the water level sensor probe and it didn't look as though it had ridden up. I removed it and it was fairly clean but for perhaps a thin film of minerals. I cleaned it off, re-installed, fired it up and got the same results: heating followed by sputtering from the vacuum breaker, followed by a brief fill, another attempt from the vacuum breaker, another brief fill and this time, a small burst from the pressure-relief valve at which point I shut down. Note that that pressure gauge had barely budged by this time and I think the pressure relief valve went because the boiler was filled to the brim with water.

All of which says to me that the water level sensor is not doing it's job (or it is and the logic board is not responding). Anyone know how much continuity needed for a positive signal? I'm getting about 1700KOhms through there which doesn't sound like much. Very soft water here so not much continuity I guess.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by bgour » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:15 pm

Resolved.

After a bit more reading here about water level sensor problems I realized that mine was indeed too high. It was fairly loose so no surprise. Amazing what a difference 5-10 mm makes.

I now realize this has been a slowly developing problem because my steam is dryer than it has been in months.

Thanks for the help and the great site!
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:37 pm

Glad to hear it. Those are the best kind of fixes - easy and free!
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steve96822 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:41 am

Let me join this one.

S1 Vivaldi first generation 220volt


Boiler lights keeps flashing and pressure gauge continues well into red and OPV opens around #2 with on/off louder bursts.


Is this the temperature sensor failing ??

If so can it be revitalized/fixed/cleaned, etc etc or is a new one the only solution?

Is a better designed replacement part available? or must it be the same part?


Any link to a picture of the top of steam boiler with components identified?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:10 am

The temp sensor is the most likely cause. I would get the new style if you have an option these days. On your model, the part that bolts down to the top of the boiler is actually a hollow tube. The temperature sensor is small silver cylinder with two leads that get pushed to the bottom of the tube. The leads that stick out the top of the tube are connected the wire that goes to the controller board. The new style is just a sensor that screws directly into the hole in the top of the boiler - so no longer a tube + a separate sensor. Usually there is a glob of silicone rubber at the top of the tube to keep water out. You need to grab it with needle nose pliers or some similar tool and yank that silicone plug out, then pull on the wires to remove the sensor from the tube. You then cut the single nylon cable tie around the orange sleeves in the photo below. Slide the orange sleeves out of the way and unplug the sensor leads. With that done, you can use the proper size metric socket wrench to unscrew and pull out the tube. With that out all you do is screw the new sensor in the hole (a turn or two of teflon tape on the threads is a good idea), then reconnect the leads, slide the orange sleeves over the connectors and cinch in place with a new nylon cable tie.
boiler.jpg
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steve96822 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:51 pm

Thank you Professor Chas for the excellent information.

I attached a pic of my steam boiler to confirm the part referred to. Red arrow.

Maybe #8919 ? is new sensor

Is this new part limited to some 110 volt USA machines?

Today fired up steam boiler and initially worked fine, pressure needle at green red border. Then same problem began again.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 am

Yes, 8919 is the correct new part.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steve96822 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:27 pm

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Follow up with happy ending

# used an allen key to remove temp probe receptacle. did not need to take apart chassis. just remove top grill.

# with probe and wire out filled cavity with vinegar for 15 minutes. rinsed with water. used pipe cleaner and isopropyl alcohol to clean internal chamber.

# sanded outside of receptacle to expose shiny new metal.

# wiped actual temp probe with isopropyl alcohol


# cleaned threads with toothpick

# applied silicone gasket material (pic)


# reattached all

# works fine now.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:41 pm

Did you also replace the sensor or only cleanup the old one?
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steve96822 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:53 pm

Just cleaned the old one. It looked pristine but I wiped it with alcohol anyway and avoided touching it with my hands.

I wonder if possible external and internal corrosion of the threaded receptacle could have interfered with the temperature sensing ability?
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:17 am

Steve, I don't see how anything you did could have fixed your issue but I guess you can't argue with success. Did you unplug the sensor and replug it back it? If the connectors were oxidized, doing that might have cleaned them off.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:48 am

Okay here's one to scratch your head to...

Having the same problem whereby in standby mode, the steam boiler is still heating up. I have tried replacing with a new triac, then with a new SSR. Neither solved the problem. Then, probably out of pure frustration, I completely unplugged all wires going to the SSR/Triac, put it on standby and STILL the boiler heats up. So the SSR/Triac seems to be completely bypassed?
Really stuck now, any ideas?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:26 am

IMG_4064.JPG
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I've narrowed it down, I'm not getting any voltage across M8, where as M7 has around 14v. Both of these feed into the SSR as the input voltage for either boiler. I'm now stuck though as I don't know where M8 comes connects to/from?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:07 am

The M8 control signal with 0V would keep it's SSR Off whereas a 14V control signal turns it's SSR on. You didn't say if you measured these with the S1 plugged in but in standby or whether it was in some other mode. However, if plugged in and in Standby they both should read 0V.

If M7 is reading 14V while in Standby then the SSR it connects to must be the one going to your steam boiler. For now if you leave that cable unplugged the steam boiler should stay off and you can still use the machine for making espresso. However, you may need to replace the controller board to actually fix the problem since I am not aware of anyone that will attempt to troubleshoot these boards and replace individual component parts.

I believe there is a control relay on the board that is controlled by the processor. When the processor sends a low voltage control signal to that relay, it turns on and sends the 14V to the SSR control pin. It sounds like this relay is stuck ON.

It think the replacement boards go for about $350 which may be the most expensive replacement part on the board. If yours has failed and needs to be replaced, is it any consolation that you may have the first one with a failed controller board?

** If you measure the voltage on M7 and M8 with the machine turned on rather than in standby, then either M7 or M8 SHOULD be at 14V with the other one at 0V since the group boiler immediately turns on. The steam boiler shouldn't turn on until the group boiler is up to ( or almost up to) temp.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:09 am

Hi Chas, thanks for replying. I'll add a bit more meat to my question:

While in standby mode, both boilers remain OFF. When I turn the machine on, the steam boiler turns on and its corresponding SSR light illuminates. At the same time, the group boiler is not heating up and it's SSR light is not illuminated. That would make sense if like you say the controller board will only heat one boiler at a time. In which case, I will re-arrange the connectors so that the grouphead gets the current from the SSR first, then maybe it will switch over to the steam boiler when up to temp.

One other thing which I believe is probably the main underlying issue, if you refer back to my ugly boiler pic :) http://s1cafe.com/download/file.php?id=1474 you'll notice there is no temperature sensor in the steam boiler. The wires for it are present but have been isolated in insulation tape by the previous owner. As if this wasn't baffling enough, instead of there being a temp sensor, instead there is a copper tube leading to a pressure cut out switch, to which the positive terminal for the steam boiler routes through on it's way to the steam boiler.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:25 am

It almost sounds to me like you may just have the two control cables reversed where they plug into the SSR module.

If that does the trick you may want to use the front panel control to disable the steam boiler until you get it correctly rewired. The previous owner has bypassed the thermal breaker which is a bad idea (thing with red button on top) and I don't see any connection at all to the water level sensor.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:32 am

I've now switched the terminals on the SSR and indeed the group is heating up and then switches power to the steam boiler. However, the brew pressure dial on the front of the machine which would normally show 9 bar when pulling a shot, is for some reason creeping up to around 5 bar while I'm sitting here waiting for the boilers to heat. Also the steam boiler pressure dial is still shooting way up into the red.
Last edited by steamydream on Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:34 am

note: I have re-connected the thermal cut out ontop of the steam boiler and also the water level sensor,

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:54 am

steamydream wrote:I've now switched the terminals on the SSR and indeed the group is heating up and then switches power to the steam boiler. However, the brew pressure dial on the front of the machine which would normally show 9 bar when pulling a shot, is for some reason creeping up to around 5 bar while I'm sitting here waiting for the boilers to heat. Also the steam boiler pressure dial is still shooting way up into the red.
The group pressure reading is meaningless except when pulling a shot.

If the steam pressure is in the red, then either the steam temp sensor is not connected or else it has failed.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:10 pm

chas wrote:If the steam pressure is in the red, then either the steam temp sensor is not connected or else it has failed.
Okay, and that is the temp sensor, not the thermostat, right?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:12 pm

chas wrote:
steamydream wrote:I've now switched the terminals on the SSR and indeed the group is heating up and then switches power to the steam boiler. However, the brew pressure dial on the front of the machine which would normally show 9 bar when pulling a shot, is for some reason creeping up to around 5 bar while I'm sitting here waiting for the boilers to heat. Also the steam boiler pressure dial is still shooting way up into the red.
The group pressure reading is meaningless except when pulling a shot.

If the steam pressure is in the red, then either the steam temp sensor is not connected or else it has failed.
Oh that's right. You mentioned that the previous owner removed the temp sensor and jury rigged some kind of pressure sensor cut-off. Until you purchase a new temp sensor and put this back the way it should be, you'll never get the proper pressure reading from the steam boiler. Hopefully that owner didn't rethread the hole on top of the boiler to a different size.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:23 pm

chas wrote: Hopefully that owner didn't rethread the hole on top of the boiler to a different size.
It'll cost me $50 for a new one to find out... :(

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:25 pm

Does the steam pressure go up to a specific point in the red and then stop? If so what pressure does it go to?

I am surprised with that current pressure kludge that the controller board doesn't throw an alarm. It is supposed to be able to tell when the temp sensor is open or shorted. It sounds like the way it is now, the kludge assumes that power to the boiler is always on and then the pressure switch is supposed to shut off the power to the boiler rather than the triac.

You should be getting one of the alarms shown below. However, there have been others with boiler issues that also did not get this alarm.
s2MiniAlarm.png
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:45 pm

Yes I do indeed get the 19-20-21 alarm.
So, I managed to get hold of a new temp sensor, it was for a different machine, but it fits and only cost £13. So I fitted it, and all seemed to be going well. Until the steam boiler got to about half temp, then it stopped heating. The SSR had been illuminating both sides on and off nicely, now just the group boiler was heating.
I messed about a bit, trying swapping a the terminals about and stuff, now the SSR doesn't seem to be functioning at all. The SSR never got hot, warm maybe, but not hot.
One step forward, two steps back :(

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:01 pm

At this point I am not sure if you still have a functioning SSR or not. However, I am still concerned about the temp sensor. Just fitting isn't enough. It has to be the type highlighted in the graphic below and have this exact response curve or it's not going to work.

Also, you've probably figured this out by now but when you get an alarm, you have to unplug the machine, then plug it back in to clear the alarm.
PT1000 RTD Temp Sensor Chart.jpg
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by steamydream » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:21 pm

Bugger, do you think the incorrect resistance could fry the SSR?

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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:27 pm

I wouldn't think that could cause the SSR to blow since the temp sensor signal goes to the controller board and not directly to the SSR. However, your description sure sounds like something fried the SSR.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by slo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:46 pm

Ok, it is my turn to have a problem with the steam boiler temperature.
The steam boiler overheat and the pressure reaches 1.5 bar. It is stable there

Based on this, and other threads I have assumed a Temperature sensor problem.
I took out the Temp sensor to look at it and it was covered by a fine layer of scale/corrosion (will have to descale the entire machine soon, but that is another issue). I cleaned it back down to the base brass and re-installed it.... Problem persist! It still goes to 1.5 bar.

I have ordered the temp sensor from CC. I received it but there is no gasket or seal on it!? Is it supposed to come with a seal?
The part diagram does not indicate a separate seal for the sensor (P/N 8919).
I have sent a mail to CC to inquire about this but if someone that replaced this sensor can confirm I would appreciate.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by slo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:14 pm

OK. Follow up on CC, they tell me to put Teflon tape on the threads...

The threads on the sensor are straight, not tapered. So theoretically the Teflon on threads is not the right way to do it.
While there is a chance that it may work (for how long?) I am still thinking that the sensor should either come with the seal or we should be able to buy it separately.
Tomorrow I will try the Teflon tape makeshift seal and see what that gives me.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:03 pm

Are you replacing the old "well" style sensor with the new standalone sensor. The "well" style consists of a metal tube and a sensor with a long pair of wires that you pushed down to the bottom of the tube. The newer sensor is just a stubby thing about 1.5" long. It replaced both the old sensor and the tube.

The oldest machines had the well type on both boilers. At some point LaSpaz switched to using the well type on the steam boiler and the stubby type on the group boiler. However, the newest machines use the stubby type on both boilers.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by slo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:44 pm

My machine as a mix of sensors installed; Stubby on the steam boiler and Well type on the brew boiler.
Are they interchangeable one to one?

I installed the new sensor on today and could not make a perfect seal even with enough teflon on the thread that I could not tighten it anymore. I am sure that I could jury rig something for the seal but it turns out that the it is not the sensor. I get the same reading with the new and the old. So I reinstalled the old sensor (which does make perfect seal without effort).
So I bought the temperature sensor (without the proper sealing gasket) for nothing. I"ll probably keep it as a spare... Since CC's position is that it is the way it should be and my cost to return it to the US is prohibitive.

After seeing this I looked a bit more closely at the needle and it does not return all the way to the zero peg! The distance is very minute, about 1/16 inch off, but it is there. I never noticed since my machine is ON 24/7.

So the problem could be the pressure gauge. But the offset is not the same at the zero and at the stable pressure? Would the offset not stay the same as the pressure increases?
I guess I will have to order a gauge to know for sure. Or I could keep it as is. If it is the gauge then there is no safety hazard.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:43 pm

Normally the gauges fail by not returning to zero which causes a linear offset. So if your gauge rests at .22bar when there is no pressure, then you just subtract this amount from the actual pressure reading to get the real pressure. If this results in a good pressure and you can live with it, there is no real need to buy a new gauge.

Did the machine get jarred recently? A sudden jar or drop is what normally causes this type of failure.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:53 pm

BTW: About two years ago someone on the forum reported an undocumented feature that allows some fine tuning of the steam boiler pressure. It is documented in the latest version of the User's Manual available here: http://s1cafe.com/s1v2/V2%20Manuals/V2O ... alRevH.pdf
Check page 15.

Even if this is not the root cause, it may be a reasonable fix unless things get worse at some future time. Of course if you discover that the problem is solely due to your pressure gauge there is no reason to change this setting unless you just want to tinker.
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by slo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:13 pm

Oh well! For some reason the steam boiler was set to an additional degree!
I just reset it to 1 degree below the normal and the pressure is now stable around 1.25 (oscillate between 1.2 and 1.3) bar. I'll experiment with the setting to see where I like the steam power the best. I know that I still have the offset from the zero position
This capability was not in the manual when I last read it. How this setting got changed on my machine I do not know! I moved the machine to a coffee bar downstairs a while back and this is probably when "something" happenned.

I"ll will certainly live with the pressure gauge as it is now.

Thank you Chas!
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Re: Steam Boiler Overheating

Post by chas » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:28 pm

I already had an S1 Dream before I learned about this undocumented feature on the Vivaldi's. The Dream has a pretty wide programmable steam boiler range and I explored the quality and quantity of steam across the entire range. When I found the spot that gave me the best results it was right at 1.3bar which is pretty much where my Vivaldi's were set.
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