Can't find the buzz

[sakurama]

And no I'm not talking about a caffine buzz - that I can find no problem.

My machine is thoretically a VI but is practically a VII since I've upgraded every last part on it over the last couple of years. It's been working great for me and has poured many a perfect shot. In fact it's still working but it's developed a very loud buzz that sounds like two pieces of sheet metal rattling when the pump kicks on - but it's not. I've torn the machine down several times and it's been sitting with no covers for two days. I can't find the buzz. My neighbor who's a machinist and addicted to my coffee has also spent a good long time with me looking for it. No dice.

The sound only seems to start after the pump has been on for a few seconds. A shot and the refilling of the brew tank won't make it happen but hot water for a cup of tea will. I spoke to Chris Coffee and he suggested I remove the pump since I was convinced it was inside the motor. I took off the pump and the noise stopped. Okay, it's the pump I thought - no blown seals but it was stiff to turn, so I we concluded it was a bad pump. I ordered a new one and put it in and... it's worse.

I made this movie so you can hear it - it starts right after the water pours (to get the pump to kick on).

http://vimeo.com/22782851

In looking through threads I seem to remember Niko having a problem with a noisy valve but didn't figure out which one.

Any ideas?

Gregor

[chas]

Gregor:

That's a strange one. It seems like a electrical arcing sound almost like the brushes in the motor are getting worn.

While I have your attention, my wife and I will be in NYC soon. Do you have any new must try espresso shop recommendations? My usual rotation includes:
RBC, Cafe 1886, Bluebird, and/or Joe the Art of Coffee. I tried Grumpy's once and the coffee was awful.

[JohnB]

It definitely sounds like an electrical buzzing. I'd be looking at the solenoid that is engaged at that time.

[chas]

It definitely sounds like an electrical buzzing. I'd be looking at the solenoid that is engaged at that time.

That might explain why it only does it when pulling hot water and only after a few seconds. The pump may come on right away to start pushing the water out, but there would be a delay before the water got low enough for the water level sensor to signal the controller board to kick in the solenoid to start refilling the boiler.

[Endo]

Scary arcing sound. Probably the steam boiler fill solenoid, but I'd check around the top of the steam boiler as well. It might be one of the those heater lead caps or wires that has melted off and is arcing. If so, be VERY careful.

[sakurama]

Wow, I got the A team on this one!

The sound is not near the boiler but rather near the motor. In fact it sounds like it's coming from just above and to the right of the pump (from the front) or from the motor. The motor is new (last year) and without the pump hooked up sounds fine. To me it almost sounds like cavitation in the pump so I poured some water and then turned the machine on it's side when it kicked on but it was the same.

Since it sounds like a physical buzz (not so much like arcing Endo) I pressed on everything I could to try to effect it but got no change. Machine works great but it's just super loud which is sad since it was loud when I got it until I replaced the motor last year and finally had a quiet machine. I liked the quiet machine!

I'll call Chris tomorrow again I guess.

G

[sakurama]

Hi Chas!

My favorite is still 9th Street. Maybe because they turned me on to how good coffee could be but I still think they're great. Liked it better when Stumptown was doing their roast but it's still great.

Another is Abraço on 7th Street which despite the buzz and being in my old hood I've never been to.

Everyman Espresso is an offshoot of 9th Street so I like them.

Gimme is better than Grumpy but it depends on who's pulling the shots.

Blue Bottle and Oslo are both in Williamsburg and I really liked Blue Bottle. I especially liked that they had a vintage La Marzocco just for pulling single origin espressos - how much more fancy pants can you get? They're in my friends old glass blowing studio so I like that too. Cute hipsters pulling serious shots.

Lastly is a new one right near me, just blocks away actually, called WTF Coffee Labs which boasts about a half dozen different preparations. If you go here let me know and I'll meet you as I'm curious to try it as well.

It's a testament to my machine and dedication but I feel like my coffee is as good or better so I don't go out much any more. I should though just to keep up. I have a roast, a blend, a temp etc that I like and I'm just enjoying it. Took a long time to get there but it was worth it. Thanks to you and John and the rest of this board.

Anyway I hope there's some new ones for you!

G

Gregor

[Endo]

Well, as we've seen before, sounds recorded on videos can be misleading sometimes. I still think the best approach is to use a piece of tubing (or auto stethescope) and pinpoint exactly where the sound is coming from.

You've already replaced the pump, so we can eliminate that.

If it sounds like it's originating from the pump, the next guess would be the motor itself (as Chas said).

If it's vibration near the pump, pressing on certain components to dampen it out would be the smart thing to do but if it is internal (like in the motor housing), that might be impossible.

Lastly, if it's fluid generated, look around sharp tubing bends or gicleurs as the source (athough it doesn't sound much like a fluid noise).

[chas]

Wow, I got the A team on this one!

The sound is not near the boiler but rather near the motor. In fact it sounds like it's coming from just above and to the right of the pump (from the front) or from the motor. The motor is new (last year) and without the pump hooked up sounds fine. To me it almost sounds like cavitation in the pump so I poured some water and then turned the machine on it's side when it kicked on but it was the same.

Since it sounds like a physical buzz (not so much like arcing Endo) I pressed on everything I could to try to effect it but got no change. Machine works great but it's just super loud which is sad since it was loud when I got it until I replaced the motor last year and finally had a quiet machine. I liked the quiet machine!

I'll call Chris tomorrow again I guess.

G

Where you described the noise coming from is the exact location where the steam boiler refill solenoid is located.

[JohnB]

I had a buzzing noise on my S1V2 which was caused by the motor capacitor mounting bracket contacting the frame cross rail above the motor/capacitor.

[chas]

Hi Chas!

My favorite is still 9th Street. Maybe because they turned me on to how good coffee could be but I still think they're great. Liked it better when Stumptown was doing their roast but it's still great.

Another is Abraço on 7th Street which despite the buzz and being in my old hood I've never been to.

Everyman Espresso is an offshoot of 9th Street so I like them.

Gimme is better than Grumpy but it depends on who's pulling the shots.

Blue Bottle and Oslo are both in Williamsburg and I really liked Blue Bottle. I especially liked that they had a vintage La Marzocco just for pulling single origin espressos - how much more fancy pants can you get? They're in my friends old glass blowing studio so I like that too. Cute hipsters pulling serious shots.

Lastly is a new one right near me, just blocks away actually, called WTF Coffee Labs which boasts about a half dozen different preparations. If you go here let me know and I'll meet you as I'm curious to try it as well.

It's a testament to my machine and dedication but I feel like my coffee is as good or better so I don't go out much any more. I should though just to keep up. I have a roast, a blend, a temp etc that I like and I'm just enjoying it. Took a long time to get there but it was worth it. Thanks to you and John and the rest of this board.

Anyway I hope there's some new ones for you!

G

Gregor

Thanks, there are definitely some new ones in here. I'll have to scope them out and see where they are in relation to our planned excursion. I had left 9th st off my list but we did try them last year and I concur with your assessment. Plus they are within spitting distance of a nice Gelato place so I got to have espresso gelato with my espresso!

[Endo]

Capacitor or solenoid. Time to place your bets.

Capacitor bracket should be easiest to check first.

[GDK]

Solenoid would be my first suspect. I cannot recall how this one is mounted inside the machine but I would check if bolts are all tight, see if it is touching a metal plate or something else that may cause a rattle. It could also be internal solenoid noise due to parts becoming loose or seal break. While it is working, wiggle the solenoid to see if sound changes - BE VERY CAREFUL not to touch active wires!!!

Looking at the electrical circuit (in the manual posted at Cris coffee), it is quite simple - 120V active goes through a relay on the main board and into the solenoid. Then the solenoid is connected to the neutral (and ground). No capacitors are shown on the path.

[sakurama]

Well all you solenoid fans can give yourself a nice pat on the back.

I didn't realize that there were two separate solenoids and thought that the reason it did it only for steam was because that drew more water so the pump had time to "ramp up" but that was faulty logic. I spoke to Roger at Chris Coffee and he led me through some tests and narrowed in on the solenoid which, when I removed it and drew water, made no noise. Problem located!

He also suggested I try to clean it first before replacing it so once the machine has cooled down I'll try to get it apart. If that's interesting I'll post some photos.

Thanks for your help guys. Looking forward to a quiet machine again.

Gregor

[sakurama]

Chas,

One of my favorite evenings was dinner at Shabu Tatsu on 10th Street and then dessert at Chikalicious across the street. Both very unique and cool. If you haven't had shabu shabu it's boiled beef at your table - sounds disgusting but is in fact amazing. Another in that hood is Momofuku which is great late - it's where all the best chefs go to have dinner after their shifts are done - big street cred.

Have fun.

G

[sakurama]

Okay, under the category of "no good deed goes unpunished..." the machine doesn't work at all now.

I ordered a new soleniod and valve from CC and it came this morning so I put it in. At first it kicked on and was louder than before with the new valve but maybe it was just filling the empty boiler. Well, it wasn't it. It didn't work at all. I kept dispensing water trying to get the new valve to kick in and soon the boiler just ran out of water. I put the old valve back on and it didn't work now either.

After a little while the first three lights (96°, 97° and Econ) started to flash and the machine basically shut down. I powered if off and back on but the steam boiler won't fill. I opened the control box to check the fuse in there but it's good. Are there other fuses I'm not aware of?

This reminds me of the saying on the ranch, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Gregor

[GDK]

You seem to be getting the "Damaged Boiler Heating Element Triac" alarm. Download this manual as it will tell you how to read alarms among many other useful things:

http://www.chriscoffee.com/files/46/Min ... e+2010.pdf

What might have happened is that you drained quite a bit of water from the boiler without refill working and that left the heating element exposed to air which made it overheat. Call service, they will take care of it.

[chas]

I guess I should remind Chris and resend him the latest version of the manual. The one he has linked is two revs behind. The latest version (Rev. E) is here.

s1v2/V2%20Manuals/V2Owner%27sManualRevE.pdf

That said nothing has changed for a long time relative to the alarm codes.

[Endo]

Man. That doesn't sound good.

Replacing the solenoid can't make things worse. Since things are now completely stopped, perhaps the arcing was somewhere else (control box?) and now it's just fried. Can you open up the box and look inside? Any new bad smells?

On the positive side, only thing left to replace is the motor!

You may need to throw in the towel and send it to CC so they can swap things out to troubleshoot further.

[sakurama]

Yeah Endo, I was thinking about that. I can keep chasing my tail and ordering parts that don't fix it or I could send it off and make sure they figure it out. I'm sort of tired of having it exploded all over the kitchen anyway. Besides that my wife is headed into the hospital tomorrow to deliver our next baby so I'm going to have my hands full for a little bit. Not sure if I could get it out in time though.

Well, I spoke to Tim today and he lead me through the steps testing the boiler fill lead on the top of the machine and a few other things and then I just ran out of time today. I opened the control box and the fuse wasn fine. Couldn't see anything else in there that would be making the trouble. We'll see what happens tomorrow but it might be time to just box it up and send it off.