shot volume question from S1

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gene

shot volume question from S1

Post by gene »

After all that great advice two months ago with my new S1 from Sylvain, Endo, John, etc., settled down to steady "God Shots" since. Should get aro 1 1/2 oz. in 35 seconds with Vario grind setting of 5 notches from bottom L Macro and 1 down on R Micro.....About a week ago volume started to increase. Today with all parameters the same getting avg. 4oz. shots Completely unacceptable.
And still using Sylvain's suggestion of 15 pound tamp with slight nutation.
Called wonderful folks at Chris Coffee an hour ago....advice was to backflush. Ideally should have between 9-10 bars pressure. 9.8 bars logged every time so that's not the prob.

What do you experts think?
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chas
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Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by chas »

It sounds to me like you accidentally reprogrammed the volumetric dose on the water quantity. Also, I think most folks set their pressure in the range 8.25-9bar. I've never heard of going above 9 bar (except as noted below).

That said, there are potentially valid reasons to run above 9 bar based on the built-in pressure gauge. For example, I have my GS/3 set such that the pressure gauge reads about 10bar. This is because the pressure on the built-in gauge is picked off right at the output of the pump. Due to the water flowing through the group, there is a pressure drop between the pump and the PF. I used a Scace with integrated pressure gauge to set the pressure to 9bar at the PF with typical shot flow. The Scace device is pretty pricey. If you search on this forum you will find folks that have built their own pf pressure gauges with a needle valve to simulate ~2 oz of flow in 25s or whatever flow rate you prefer.

Of course there is the other school of thought that says when those original Italian espresso makers empirically came up with 9 bar as the optimum pressure, they were probably just going by the pressure gauge. So they may have actually been getting closer to 8bar at the group. If you go with this philosophy you should still keep the pressure at 9bar based on the built in gauge.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
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Endo

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by Endo »

Sounds to me like your coffee is getting stale. How old is it?

I'm not sure if it's another "vivaldi thing", but it seems to me that the this machine REALLY likes fresh coffee (less than 3 weeks since roast). Once past that age, I really need to increase the nutation and tamp pressure to keep the pour centered and prevent channeling. I've learned to progressively increase tamping and nutation pressure a bit each day as the roast ages.
oton

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by oton »

gene wrote:After all that great advice two months ago with my new S1 from Sylvain, Endo, John, etc., settled down to steady "God Shots" since. Should get aro 1 1/2 oz. in 35 seconds with Vario grind setting of 5 notches from bottom L Macro and 1 down on R Micro.....About a week ago volume started to increase. Today with all parameters the same getting avg. 4oz. shots Completely unacceptable.
I don't understand well... 5 notches from bottom for the macro setting? So you are not at espresso setting?

With the vario, espresso shots should be grinded at Macro Espresso Setting (slider all the way up) and play with the micro settings to fine tuning the shot. Otherwise, your Vario needs re-calibration, in my opinion.
gene

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by gene »

The best advice I ever got on setting the Vario was from SLO. Received new Vario in Aug and did the calibration Kyle Anderson described on the burrs. It works as advertised. Sylvain recommended one down on Micro and 2/3 down on Macro(L). At least that is where he found his sweet spot. There are 18 notches on Vario. So yes it is five up from bottom. That turned out to be my espresso sweet spot also with 15 pound nutating tamp. Has to do with 53mm portafilter not requiring the 30 pound tamp of typical 58mm's.

I have been getting around 1.7oz. in 35 sec with 6 days post roast beans exactly same as Sylvain using all the same parameters with grind and S1.
I'm currently enjoying Eth Jimma-Nigusie Lemma and Kenya Kianimui both great coffee's. The Gene Cafe does a fantastic roasting job. I know because I have sent samples to roasting competitions and had great feedback!

Last night lowered the pressure to 8.8. Didn't help.

So easy to work on the S1----i'm enjoying this machine! Even with 4oz it is still tons better than my old machine and certainly not sink shots.

Still getting 4oz. range in 35 seconds. Perhaps Endo is right. Could I have accidentally screwed with volumetric dosing?

Thanks for your comments!
gene
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chas
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Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by chas »

Well that was me, not Endo. I can't see any reason to get 4 oz of espresso other than that you messed up the volumetric dosing. At least 1oz of water is absorbed by the coffee. If you are shooting for 1.75oz of coffee, the total volumetric dose will be around 2.75oz. If you are getting 4oz before auto-shutoff you must have your dosing set to about 5oz of water. You should measure the water w/o and coffee in the pf. That will no doubt confirm that you have messed up the dosing.

Even if you don't reset the volumetric dosing you should manually kill the shot when the espresso starts to blond.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
gene

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by gene »

Thanks Chas. And I failed to get the question on the volumetric dosing(slap on forehead!)

I always time my shots. Set dosing on single and double to 45-50 seconds.
So I called Chris Coffee. He had me go thru some tests. W/O portafilter was getting 2oz of water----perfectly normal. He finally concluded S1 was perfect.
Asked me to try grinding finer and call him tomorrow if still not resolved. But, was using same settings on Vario I had used for two months. Oh well, burrs have worn I guess. But all at once a week ago?

While ago set Vario at top on Micro, one notch above usual. Turned Vario on. Set Macro with Vario empty while easing lever up listening for change in grinder....settled on 3 down and pulled shot.....3/4 oz in 45 sec.

So something happened to my burr adjustment? Hmmmm.

Now I'll go back during Decaf hour tonite and calibrate for 1.5oz in 35 seconds by tweaking the grind. Hey, I respect SLO and his advice, as well as all of you. Prob leave Micro in top on R and Macro near bottom.

Lesson to be learned from all this? Should have known La Spaz was perfect to begin with!
Its all fun!
gene
oton

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by oton »

gene wrote:The best advice I ever got on setting the Vario was from SLO. Received new Vario in Aug and did the calibration Kyle Anderson described on the burrs. It works as advertised. Sylvain recommended one down on Micro and 2/3 down on Macro(L). At least that is where he found his sweet spot. There are 18 notches on Vario. So yes it is five up from bottom. That turned out to be my espresso sweet spot also with 15 pound nutating tamp. Has to do with 53mm portafilter not requiring the 30 pound tamp of typical 58mm's.
I *think* I have my vario factory calibrated properly... but perhaps not.

Did you read this?

Calibrating the Vario with the new calibration screw.

Baratza's first shipment of Vario's (March 2009, serial # 001 to 270) were calibrated at the factory to grind too fine. We then changed the factory setting for the Vario so it could be adjusted fine enough for espresso and coarse enough for Press Pot. Since we made this adjustment at the factory we have had much fewer calibration issues. Beginning with serial #271, Baratza added a secondary calibration screw (2mm Allen head set screw) in a round hole between the discharge chute and the calibration grommet. This calibration screw allows the user to easily adjust the calibration in the finer direction with the grinder running. To make the adjustment, empty all beans from the grinder, lower the Macro and Micro levers all the way to the bottom and run it briefly to expel any partially ground coffee. Press the Manual button and then the Start button. While the grinder is running, raise the Macro arm all the way to the top (Espresso). You should not hear any change in motor speed. Now raise the Micro arm up the midpoint. You should begin to hear the motor slow (or labor a little). If not, use a 2mm Allen wrench to slowly turn the 2mm set screw clockwise (when looking up at the screw) until you begin to hear the motor slow or labor. You are done!


In my Vario, I only hear the motor start to slowing with Macro at max. setting and Micro at midpoint... and with this adjustments, I need Macro at max and play with the Micro to pull espresso shots.
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slo
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Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by slo »

gene wrote:leave Micro in top on R and Macro near bottom.
I that that there is a nomenclature issue but nothing more. The Micro lever is on the left, this is the lever that provides the smallest adjustment per "click". The Macro lever is on the right and provides big steps in the the adjustment.

I rarely have to adjust the right (edited to correct error) lever (macro) to the very top with any coffee that I have used so far but it is very possible that it is what you need at this time.

What counts is that you are back into good shots territory.

Sylvain
Last edited by slo on Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
Endo

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by Endo »

Mine was zeroed at min Macro setting (top right) and mid micro setting (mid left), using the tool. I would then get a good espresso shot when I simply set the macro up one notch from min (and left the micro at the mid point). That was..... until I gave it away to a friend. :lol:

I never could get a stable, centered a pour from the naked PF using the Vario. Seemd to wander all over even though the shot time was right. :-(
gene

Re: shot volume question from S1

Post by gene »

I'm very thankful you guys are keeping me straight!

And Kyle Anderson also rocks. He sent this info last nite:
"Hi Gene,
Rest assured the burrs are NOT wearing. There is an oil-light bearing-spline on which the rotating lower burr carrier shaft is supported. It is possible for very small wear patterns to show up on this spline. If there is a little movement between the shaft alignment and the spline, or if the micro finish on the spline wears ever so slightly, then a coarser grind setting will be the result. Minor wear on the spline is expected and that is why we issue a secondary calibration tool (and instructions) with all new Varios. This allows for minor tweaks to keep the range of grind always where you want it, for the life of the grinder (many years). The ceramic burrs are very hard and will last about 2X what steel burrs will. Figure at least 1000lbs of coffee. Also as burrs wear out, the indication you will notice is shot times will INCREASE (and grind time will increase). Dull burrs tend to grind finer, and do not do a good job producing accurately cut particles.
I hope this sheds some light on what you have seen. Please feel free to contact me directly for any questions/comments you may have.
Regards,
Kyle"
Have to dig out the secondary calibration tool and tweak a tiny bit and then re-assess shot timing.
This morning have the Vario programmed at all way up on right and 6 down on left producing 1.5 oz in 35 seconds....back in Sylvain's target range of ideal....result is bliss.
This morning the last of my Coasta Rica El Espino "Willys" was to die for.....This is one of the very highest coffee farms in Costa Rica. Very hard, dense bean. The old man drives around the "espino" of his farm using an ancient green Willys jeep. It just adds ambience to the cup!
gene
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