Backflushing is a Waste of Time

[Endo]

La Spaziale doesn't recommend backflushing, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am it's a total waste of time. In fact, I even wonder if it does more harm than good (loading up the motor for a long time, sending trapped coffee bits back from grouphead into the valve).

I may do a chemical backflush once every 6 months.....but that's it.

Anybody else an anti-backflusher?

[oton]

You mean chemical backflushing or water backflushing?

[Endo]

You mean chemical backflushing or water backflushing?

Water is a waste of time.

Try it yourself if you want to be sure:

1. Remove your tray
2. Carefully place a white espresso cup under the backflow outlet.
3. Pull 2 water backflushs

Here is what I get after 3 months with no water and no chemical backflush:

Backflush Water

DSC01940 (480x360) (300x225).jpg (16.64 KiB) Viewed 45187 times

[slo]

Respectfully Endo and I am not trying to convince you but I will expose a differing opinion on this.

Clear water backflush is of unclear benefit. People that do it regularly may, by doing so, expel some ground that may have been sucked through the dispersion screen. The creation of a pressure and fast release does dislodge stuff that may otherwise stay in place for a while. These stuck coffee ground may not be that bad, but I do not like the idea of degrading pieces of food somewhere inside my machine... I do not clear water backflush every day anymore.

Considering that the pump is constantly running in by-pass (water being pushed by the pump that goes back at the inlet because the machine flow is lower than the pump output flow), there really is no damage that would come out of a backflush procedure that is not left going for hours...

Chemical backflushes are different. They are done to clean the machine, group head, filter, conduits and the 3-way valve of coffee oil solids and oil that have stuck to the walls of just about everything in contact with it. I personally TASTE a benefit in regular chemical backflush (weekly for my part). As well, there has been instances (at least on on this site) of "leaky" 3-way valve that were cured by a chemical backflush (presumably by dissolving sticky stuff). Not backflushing will not necessarily result in any malfunction of the valve but it will remove a lot of coffee grime from the backflush pathways.

I really never want to see brown stuff at the output of a chemical backflush. If I did, it would mean that I have waited too long and that the taste of the latest espresso that I made were not as good as they could have been.

Like anything else, your methods and operating procedures are yours and must satisfy your own needs and taste.

[Endo]

Thanks for your opinion. It's good to hear both sides of the debate.

What I find interesting is that even though the designers at La Spaziale have said rather clearly that the machine does not require backflush (they don't even provide a blind basket or instructions), there are people who insist that backflushing is required....and even do it daily... in the limited home use environment.

La Spaziale designed the machine around the idea of using a two screen grouphead instead of backflushing, so as to trap the odd piece of grounds between the screens. They even provided an extra free set of screens specifically for this purpose.

Funny thing is, if you try a water backflush with an old set of screens (used for a week), you DO get a few grounds in the white cup (like the one I photographed below). But if you swap the screens, you get nothing coming through. This just tells me screen swapping works to remove trapped grounds, whereas backflushing does the opposite and simply sends all that trapped junk towards the 3-way valve. So in other words, if you are the type that obsesses with machine cleanliness, you'd be better off swapping screens daily than doing a water backflush.

If you ARE tasting something funny (stale grounds), it must come from not swapping the screens and disc often enough since everything on the other side of the grouphead (like the 3-way valve), automatically gets a hot water backflush after each shot as the pressure is released. (You never taste this water, just whatever is on the disperison disc and screens). In fact, it's been my experience that the large majority of stale grounds are trapped on the SIDES of the dispersion disc (unaffected by backflush). Remove it and have a look at the sides and you'll see what I mean. The best advice I can give to avoid stale coffee flavors is to buy a second disc and swap it out every couple of days when you change the screens. if you do this, I'm sure you'll see that the backflush is only required every few months.

I do a chemical backflush once every few months or so. (I soak my portafilters at the same time). I'm sure this is as much cleaning as I need to keep my 3 way valve happy. If it fails.....I'll be sure to let everyone know .

Coffee is just wood (with a bit of oils). It's not decaying organic waste. So if you enjoy the exercise from backflushing, that's fine. But for the sake of worried new owners, lets not exaggerate TOO much.

[slo]

Instead of backflushing, La Spaziale designed the machine around the idea of using a two screen grouphead instead of backflushing, so as to trap the odd piece of grounds between the screens. They even provided an extra free set of screens specifically for this purpose

Agreed, but I hate taking out the screens. A clear water backflush is easier and quicker to do. Again, I do not do it every day, but I did for a while to try and neither saw nor tasted any benefit. So I am not advocating it for the new owners that might read these lines.

In fact, if you ARE tasting a difference, it must come from not swapping the screens often enough since everything on the other side of the grouphead (like the 3-way valve), automatically gets a hot water backflush after each shot as the pressure is released. (You never taste this water, just whatever is in under the disperison disc).

Everything beyond the group head in the backflush path is indeed not part of the taste experience. There are (at least) two purpose for the chemical backflush; clean the group head water path to your cup. This is the part that I can taste a difference for, and clean the backflush path through the 3-way.

Do you think that swapping screens will do anything that a chemical backflush would not do? Or clean accumulated coffee oil on the group head conduits?

The backflush that indeed occurs after each shot is full of oil and grounds! This is the stuff that may (or not) accumulate and that US regular "backflushers" want to get rid of.

Coffee is just wood (with a bit of oils). It's not decaying organic waste.

Oh! It is very rapidly, decaying stuff! Put a weeks worth of wet spent ground in a closed garbage bin and go back and smell it after a couple of weeks!!! This is why I put it directly in the garden. It composts so fast!

[oton]

La Spaziale doesn't recommend backflushing

I have a maintenance sheet where La Spaz recommend water backflush and how to do it. On the other hand, as I said one year ago, a La Spaz technician told me to do not chemical backflush often as it would may damage the 3 way valve. (not sure why)

[JohnB]

I may do a chemical backflush once every 6 months.....but that's it.

Anybody else an anti-backflusher?

Classic Endo! I assume you are exaggerating as usual but it still leaves a bad coffee taste in my mouth just thinking about it.

[MDL]

I am fond of dark roast and fairly oily coffees. My machine is primarily used at breakfast for 1 person. When I purchased it in April of 2007 I presumed that my light use would preclude the need to do chemical backflushing very often. My actual experience has been that although I change the screens every week to 10 days it is necessary to do a good chemical backflush every two weeks to keep the 3-way valve operating without hesitation. A couple of times I have either neglected to do the chemical backflush or for some reason been unable to do it on schedule. This has resulted in s sticky sounding and in one case a dripping 3-way valve. These symptoms were resolved by chemical backflushing.

Each user needs to make their own decision on this issue. The vast majority of machine manufacturers suggest regular chemical backflushing. Chris's Coffee suggests chemical backflushing of the Vivaldi. My experience has been that it is important to do a chemical backflush regularly. What qualifies as "regularly" will vary for each individual user based upon the pattern of use and the coffee that is being used.

[oton]

Could anyone tell me why all of you talks about "change the screens"? Clean and put them again is not enough?

[slo]

Of course it is!

The premise is that La Spaziale is providing 2 sets such that busy cafes would just change the screens on the go and cleaned and soak the dirty ones without creating any interruption.

[Endo]

I may do a chemical backflush once every 6 months.....but that's it.

Anybody else an anti-backflusher?

Classic Endo! I assume you are exaggerating as usual but it still leaves a bad coffee taste in my mouth just thinking about it.

Yes indeed. You know me too well! A bit of an exaggeration. I think 3 months is the longest I've gone without a chemical backflush. I'll proably keep it around 2 to 3 months. Of course as others have suggested, this depends on usage.

But I'm still sticking to my "no water backflush" plan. I still haven't heard a convincing reason to do it.

Could anyone tell me why all of you talks about "change the screens"? Clean and put them again is not enough?

"change" means swap (or clean and replace). Here I often keep a spare set of screens and disc. I replace it with a clean set and let the dirty set soak overnight in Cafiza to remove the baked on coffee grinds and oil.

[oton]

and let the dirty set soak overnight in Cafiza to remove the baked on coffee grinds and oil.

That's what I'm talking about. I can't find a reason to do that. When I hand wash my dishes and glasses I only use a dish sponge with a little dish soap ... I do not let them soak in soapwater overnight! Why should it be different with the screens?

[Endo]

and let the dirty set soak overnight in Cafiza to remove the baked on coffee grinds and oil.

That's what I'm talking about. I can't find a reason to do that. When I hand wash my dishes and glasses I only use a dish sponge with a little dish soap ... I do not let them soak in soapwater overnight! Why should it be different with the screens?

Basically, what your looking for is something that will remove the coffee oils as well as the grounds. Hot water alone won't do this. You'll see a film still remains if you use only water.

Dish soap will work. But if you are picky about your coffee (as you should be if you are using a very good machine, grinder and coffee), then you don't want the "lemon fresh scent" or any other dish soap taste to cover your screens since it may end up in your cup. (Similar to the rules of washing wine glasses).

If you have a spare set of screens and disc, then you can simply drop the whole dirty set in a bowl of tasteless Cafiza, and continue to run your machine on the spare set. The next morning, simply rinse and dry the soaked set and put it back in your drawer for the next swap. The extra overnight soaking keeps the brass disc a bit more shiny. (It's similar to soaking stubborn dish pans overnight).

You can also soak your portafilter and spare baskets at the same time if you like. Just use a bigger bowl. The inside of the PF gets rather brown, and buyers (like me) often look in this area to get an idea of how much the machine was used.

[JohnB]

I do a plain water backflush routine every night & a chemical backflush once a week with the Speedster. Screen comes out on day seven & a fresh clean one goes in. I don't buy the "plain water b/f is useless" b/s. Even though I flush the screen after every shot & give it a scrub every couple shots I always find some grounds/oils in the first b/f water when I dump the p/f. If you don't think that brew temp water will dissolve relatively fresh coffee oils try this: Pull a shot, drink it & set the cup aside for a couple hours, pull a brew temp flush into the dirty cup & watch what happens to the dried coffee oils/remains.

As for going 3 months without a chemical cleaning in a Vivaldi I think you are crazy but its your machine. I did mine every 3-4 weeks tops & looking back would probably push that up to every 2 weeks.

[BobUSN]

Dish soap will work. But if you are picky about your coffee (as you should be if you are using a very good machine, grinder and coffee), then you don't want the "lemon fresh scent" or any other dish soap taste to cover your screens since it may end up in your cup. (Similar to the rules of washing wine glasses)

This is a great point. We use scent-free detergent for our clothes and towel washes as well. It's amazing how many washes it takes to get that scent out of the clothes if they've ever been washed in scented detergent.

[JohnB]

While we don't buy scented dish or laundry soap I think the whole dish detergent/coffee gear thing is way overblown. What do you wash your dishes, pans & glasses with? Does all your food taste like dish detergent? Do you taste dish detergent when you drink milk out of a glass you washed? I rinse everything I wash with hot water & I've never had a problem tasting dish detergent on our plates/silverware/ect.

[MichaelN]

La Spaziale doesn't recommend backflushing

I just bought my Vivaldi II last week and it did not come with the rubber disk for backflushing. Since it was still listed in the manual as an "included" item, I called the retailer to notify them that it was missing. Their response was that it is no longer a recommended practice and that their wholesaler (CC) no longer ships that rubber disk.

If I purge water through the group head after every couple of shots to rinse out the shower head; am I still at risk of having coffee grounds building up inside the machine?

Thanks;
Michael

[slo]

Well... according to me; Yes you are. According to others who shall remain nameless until they speak up, apparently not.

I do backflush very regularly (as you may have read before) and see stuff coming out of the backflush path. I never bought a backflush disk. I use a brass plug with a gasket, that I screw on instead of the spout on the P/F. I had the parts in the garage and it works fine.

I really do not understand why La Spaziale would not recommend to backflush when every (that I know of) other manufacturer do?

[Endo]

I really do not understand why La Spaziale would not recommend to backflush when every (that I know of) other manufacturer do?

Can you be more specific? Which home machine has backflushing as a recommended practice in the owners manual?

[JohnB]

According to this page CC still sends out the rubber disk with each machine:
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... kflushdisk They also sell a metal b/f basket which seems to work better.

[Endo]

I assume Michael bought his machine at EspressoPlanet in Mississauga, Ontario.

Often when you buy in Canada (with the exception of CaffeTech in Edmonton), you get a machine that comes from LaSpaziale. In which case they don't supply anything for backflushing (since they don't believe in it).

A least, that's what happened with my machine.

[slo]

Can you be more specific? Which home machine has backflushing as a recommended practice in the owners manual?

No I cannot. Having not seen these manuals. It is what I have understood from my reading the forums. I have never read of any other manufacturer that explicitly not recommend to backflush. I might be completely out to lunch on that one. But I honestly have never read anything along this line from anyone.

As for Espresso planet, they get there Vivaldi II from Chris Coffee like anybody else in North America. It is possible to get a Vivaldi I from many other direct importer but La Spaziale only sells the Vivaldi II in North America to Chris Coffee. I sorta understood from La Spaziale that there is a time limitation to this exclusive deal but they would not (in the few E-mail that they responded to) give more. The reason I know is that I wanted to get it from a direct importer in Montreal (Cafe Union).

But. Chris coffee does NOT put the backflush disk in the box when he sells it to a reseller. So I did not get a disk wen I got the Vivaldi II from Espresso planet although the box was shipped from Chris Coffee.

[MichaelN]

I assume Michael bought his machine at EspressoPlanet in Mississauga, Ontario.
Often when you buy in Canada (with the exception of CaffeTech in Edmonton), you get a machine that comes from LaSpaziale. In which case they don't supply anything for backflushing (since they don't believe in it).

Yes Endo, I bought it from Espresso Planet in Mississauga. This makes a lot of sense that the machine came directly from Italy as it pieces together some other discrepancies that I noticed. Thats why I didn't get the backflush disk as you mentioned and also why I didn't get the Chris' Coffee enhanced owner's manual; I had to download it from the Internet. I also noticed that the default state of the settings were not the default settings stated in the PDF version of the manual from CC. This of course would also mean that I did not get the CC bench testing, system check, nor the pre-tuned Programmable Off-Set Differential. I'm also not getting the extra year of warranty from CC.

Does this mean that my machine is not ready for use out of the box and that I need to perform some maintenance prior to using it?

Also, with the Canadian dollar on par with the US, why are we paying more for less?

Thanks for this info.

Michael

[JohnB]

First of all according to Sylvain Endo is incorrect about the source of your machine so don't jump to any false conclusions. Secondly that enhanced manual is only available by download. AFAIK CC has never shipped anything but the factory manual with new machines.

[oton]

It basically says:

MAINTENANCE FOR USERS

EVERYDAY
- Make 4 backflushes with the blind basket
- Clean showers with the brush (no dismount)
- Clean baskets and PF inside.
- Clean steam wand after every use.
- Regenerate the steam boiler water.

ONCE PER WEEK
- Dismount and clean PF spouts with a sponge scourer (No detergents)
- Dismount and clean showers screens and diffuser with a sponge scourer (No detergents)
- Reattach diffuser and showers as seen in the pic.

[Endo]

Yes Endo, I bought it from Espresso Planet in Mississauga. This makes a lot of sense that the machine came directly from Italy as it pieces together some other discrepancies that I noticed. Thats why I didn't get the backflush disk as you mentioned and also why I didn't get the Chris' Coffee enhanced owner's manual; I had to download it from the Internet. I also noticed that the default state of the settings were not the default settings stated in the PDF version of the manual from CC. This of course would also mean that I did not get the CC bench testing, system check, nor the pre-tuned Programmable Off-Set Differential. I'm also not getting the extra year of warranty from CC.

Does this mean that my machine is not ready for use out of the box and that I need to perform some maintenance prior to using it?

Also, with the Canadian dollar on par with the US, why are we paying more for less?

Thanks for this info.

Michael

All good questions that you should ask EspressoPlanet.

I can see that if they are importing from Chris (assuming the North American agreement still on), he would not include the manual (since he owns it). He also wouldn't include the backflush disc since this is not a LaSpaziale item (so why would Chris include it at his cost)? You would not get the 2 year warranty either since that is with Chris Coffee.

The BIG question of course is "is it calibrated". My guess would be it is not. Again, why would Chris do this out of his own pocket? A simple way to find out is to check the offset yourself. With the machine off, hold down the boiler button for 10 seconds and see if any offset lights come on. If was calibrated, typically you would see 2 to 4 lights.

As to why you are paying the same price if you are not getting all the Chris goodies? Another good question you should ask EspresoPlanet. But I'm sure the answer will be "we bought these machines when the dollar was sub par". This likely true but I'm also sure there is some good "middleman" cost in there too.

[Endo]

It basically says:

MAINTENANCE FOR USERS

EVERYDAY
- Make 4 backflushes with the blind basket
- Clean showers with the brush (no dismount)
- Clean baskets and PF inside.
- Clean steam wand after every use.
- Regenerate the steam boiler water.

ONCE PER WEEK
- Dismount and clean PF spouts with a sponge scourer (No detergents)
- Dismount and clean showers screens and diffuser with a sponge scourer (No detergents)
- Reattach diffuser and showers as seen in the pic.

Great! Thanks for the translation.

It doesn't say S1 though. I assume this is for the S5 (under 1000 shot a day commercial cafe conditions).

4 backlflushes a day on a Mini .....HAHAHA. Don't think so. That's more shots than I drink in a day.

I assume when they say "backflush" they mean with detergent if it doesn't explicitly say "no detergent"?

Wonder what "regenerate steam boiler water" means?

[JohnB]

La Spaziale doesn't like detergent so I'm betting they are plain water back flushes. My advice: Ignore Endo & clean your grouphead daily with plain water backflushes (3-4).

[Endo]

La Spaziale doesn't like detergent so I'm betting they are plain water back flushes. My advice: Ignore Endo & clean your grouphead daily with plain water backflushes (3-4).

I don't mind being the "no water back flush" tester. I'll let you know as soon as my 3-way needs to be changed. Of course to be fair, we'll need to compare lives on all other moving components as well.

I'm curious, which do you think will be more costly? 3 -way valve replacement after 10 years or using up pump, valve, PRV seat, etc, at 5 times the rate?

[oton]

It doesn't say S1 though. I assume this is for the S5 (under 1000 shot a day commercial cafe conditions).

Yes, It's a sticker that usually the technicians gives to the bar owners to attach it to the machine.

4 backlflushes a day on a Mini .....HAHAHA. Don't think so. That's more shots than I drink in a day.

Haha. But beware the 4 backflushes are not through the day. It's only at the end of the day. Furthermore the technician told me that actually the first "backflush" should be the "wiggle wiggle" thing, the 3 left, backflush.

I assume when they say "backflush" they mean with detergent if it doesn't explicitly say "no detergent"?

No. No detergent. Just plain water. I was advised by the tech.

Wonder what "regenerate steam boiler water" means?

I'm not sure too. But for the S1 it will make sense to refill the steam boiler frecuently if it's not used much to avoid stale water as you know.

[BobUSN]

I'm joining Endo on the testing committee...

[Endo]

Interesting. Well at least I do the "wiggle" after every shot, so at least I got that covered.

I won't argue with the technicians, but I would bet this isn't what he'd recommend if you mentioned you are doing 2 to 4 shots per day in a home environment and not the 500 shots per day of a cafe. If you get a chance, can you ask him?

Also, I wonder if this routine also applies to the vibe Mini? Typically manufactureres won't recommend backflushing for a vibe pump home machine. The reason is rather silly. I've heard it's because they're afraid some dummy will leave the machine running for 10 minutes and burn the pump prior to the 1 year warranty.

I was actually thinking of disassembling my 3-way to clean it once a year. Seems like a better method than backflushing to me. Has anyone tried this yet?

And one last thing, if you get hold of a tech again, can you ask about the descaling method for the Mini (steam boiler AND brew boiler). I wonder if he'll recommend running a descaling solution from the resevoir as others have hinted? (One of the unanswered questions that never goes away).

The best part is the bit about changing the steam boiler water every day. Nobody tell JohnB or Sylvain!

[JohnB]

The best part is the bit about changing the steam boiler water every day. Nobody tell JohnB or Sylvain!

I drain both boilers once a week on the Speedster. Only takes a couple minutes to do.

[Endo]

On an $8000+ machine.....I won't judge.

[MichaelN]

I have a plumbed in version of the Vivaldi II. How the heck am I supposed descale?

I'm sure it is possible to disconnect the water line, tap it into the bottom of an elevated bucket and then gravity feed… but there must be an easier way.

I have a decent filtration system that I plan on enhancing with one of the Everpure systems in the near future. But that still isn't enough to eliminate the need to descale and flush the system from time to time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks;
Michael

[JohnB]

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=872

[MichaelN]

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=872

Wow, that was exactly what I needed to know; thank you. That was quite the undertaking; both doing it and then writing it up so thoroughly.

My machine is only a few weeks old, so I have about 6 months to build up the courage to attempt that myself. Unless... you'd consider coming up here for a personally guided winery tour through the Niagara wine region including meals & accommodations in exchange for cleaning my machine

http://winesofontario.org/region_niagesc.php

Michael

[JohnB]

My machine is only a few weeks old, so I have about 6 months to build up the courage to attempt that myself. Unless... you'd consider coming up here for a personally guided winery tour through the Niagara wine region including meals & accommodations in exchange for cleaning my machine

http://winesofontario.org/region_niagesc.php

Michael

A tempting offer but unfortunately you are a long drive from here. Keep your water reasonably soft, drain the steam boiler regularly (monthly?) & you should be able to put off the inevitable descale for awhile.

[gene]

Got our S1 new in Sept 2010. Did the first backflush with Cafiza this weekend, March 11. Didn't think it needed it. My wife swears her espresso tastes worlds better past few days. Sylvain has help me so much in dialing in the S1. Wish I had read his "flush" ideas before, darn it. The strength of this forum is what prompted me to choose the S1 in the first place. it is the cumulative knowledge of everyone on this site. Endo has some good reading as well as John and countless others.

I carefully did the above referencing P21 of S1 manual downloaded from CC. To begin with, after last coffee every morning, I place a wet dishcloth under the grouphead with portafilter removed and turn on machine for 10 seconds. This cleans off and cleans out two screens presumably. Machine stays ultra-clean. But guess I was wrong about ultra-clean because it sure needed soapy backflushing according to our subjective findings. We plan on flushing with soap every six weeks in the future. SORRY ENDO!
The last post I read above recommends draining boiler monthly to stave off the INEVITABLE de-scaling procedure. That concerns me.

Not able to understand about procedure to drain boiler. Don't want to screw something up.

Would appreciate someone explaining your step-by-step boiler flush procedure. Its not in Chris's manual???
Thanks
gene

[Endo]

Just curious. Was your Cafiza backflush clean also accompanied with a screen and dispersion disc cleaning?

Personally, I never tasted any difference after backflush. On the other hand, a lot of coffee bits and oils can get caked on the sides of the dispersion disc, which may influence taste.

Never the less, this remids me....time for my monthly Cafiza backflush. I'll let you know if it makes any difference this time.

[JohnB]

Different machine but I do plain water backflushes every night & the first one always brings brown water into the tray drain. More then 2 seems to be a waste of time as the water is always clear after that. If I go more then 5 days without a detergent backflush I can definitely taste it. With the S1V2 I did do plain water backflushes daily, swapped the dual screens every 3-4 days but only did a detergent cleaning every 3-4 weeks. I settled on 3-4 week intervals as I'd always get some brown smooge in the drip tray at the 3-4 week cleaning but never say anything after only 1-2 weeks.

[Endo]

With the S1V2 I did do plain water backflushes daily, swapped the dual screens every 3-4 days but only did a detergent cleaning every 3-4 weeks.

That's pretty much my routine, except I skip the daily plain water backflushes (It's my opinion this does nothing).

To get a better idea, here's a few pictures I took today after swapping the screens/disc and doing a water backflush, followed by a detergent backflush. The machine was not backflushed at all for 4 weeks (just screen and disc swap).

The plain water doesn't do much. Maybe 15 tiny coffee bits (no oil). On the other hand, the detergent turns a beer colour, showing it released some stuck oils.

Keep in mind, even with the brown water colour, there's no reason this would travel upstream to the cup to change the taste. Still, I think it's a good idea to clean it out every 3-4 weeks, if not only to clean the 3 way valve.

Water Backflush

IMG_2896 (480x320).jpg (66.66 KiB) Viewed 44229 times

Detergent Backflush

IMG_2899 (480x320).jpg (102.39 KiB) Viewed 44229 times

[jbb]

Keep in mind, even with the brown water colour, there's no reason this would travel upstream to the cup to change the taste.

Maybe so, but gotta say that last photo seems a powerful argument for backflushing.

[Endo]

... gotta say that last photo seems a powerful argument for backflushing.

Chemical backflushing....yes. Every few weeks. The detergent seems to do a decent job of releasing the built up oils. (Although who really knows how much remains). I still don't think the water backflush alone does much on the Vivaldi. Most particles seemed trapped by the screens (as it was designed).

[jbb]

I haven't had the S1 long enough to say I have a routine, but what I've done in the past is to detergent backflush about every two weeks, making sure to drop and scrub the dispersion block. I think if we're willing to entertain the idea that small changes in temperature, dose and grind can produce quantitative changes in extraction chemistry that are perceptible in the cup, it also stands to reason that, even if a detergent backflush runs clear, it may be removing small amounts of residue that would also be perceptible in a negative way. I can think of at least two things in my experience that might support this. First, when I got the S1 it sat for awhile while I decided (obsessedI) about what sort of water treatment to use. When i first plugged it it the first shots were There was no detectable grunge, but after extensive backflushing the taste cleared up. Second, my wife will comment that "youve cleaned the machine" even when she wouldn't know and i can't tell.

[JonF]

Fun and interesting thread! Just cleaned my screen assembly for the first time. On the plus side, I am really glad the bolt has a metric head rather than a slotted head like my old Livia. Much easier to remove!

On the other hand, I was kind of surprised at the design of the assembly. It really has a lot of spaces for residue to collect. Anyway, it's an easy removal and cleaning, so why worry!

As to the water backflush. I have been doing this on my machines for years, but have to admit I never thought about it that much. When I do think about it, I have to wonder if it is really doing any good. I also wonder if it does not just make the mess on the screen assembly just a little worse, as any loose grounds are forced back into it.

Regading the rubber disc--I never liked that thing. Since I don't make single shots, I have just replaced the basket on that portafilter with a blind one. [Hint from experience: Warn your wife/significant other that the portafilter is a blind one, meaning there are no holes in it . . . ]

By the way,Chris's replazed Cafiza with "Full Circle" cleaner. Anyone try it yet?

[Endo]

As to the water backflush. I have been doing this on my machines for years, but have to admit I never thought about it that much. When I do think about it, I have to wonder if it is really doing any good. I also wonder if it does not just make the mess on the screen assembly just a little worse, as any loose grounds are forced back into it.

My thoughts exactly. In place of water backflush, I prefer swapping out the mess rather then forcing it back in. I'm sure that's what the designers had in mind as well (which is why they don't recommend it).

As far as chemical backflush, I think this has some value in keeping the 3-way valve area clean and working since it seems to remove some built-up oils which can eventually turn "gummy".

I agree keeping the grouphead area clean will definitely improve taste (i.e. swap screens and disc). On the other hand, I've never experienced ANY difference in taste after a backflush (water or chemical) IF the screens and disc were kept clean before hand.

If you do experience a difference in taste, I suggest you may be tasting the detergent itself due to insufficent detergent flushing.

[GDK]

Thanks guys, as usual a very useful discussion for new owners. I am yet to order the rubber disk for back-flushing from Espresso Planet. In the meantime, I am cleaning the screens from time to time. After coffee shots, I also turn on the pump for 2 seconds to flush down any coffee grind sticking at the bottom of the screen as wiping them off with cloth/paper towel or a brush could force some of that back up and behind the screen. After that, I wipe the screen with paper towel piece to sponge off the remaining water over/between the screens and leave them dry (sort of).

[Endo]

Flushing after the shot and wiping the screen and basket afterwards with a microfibre cloth is the best daily practice. I do the same.

I wouldn't bother ordering the rubber disc. A blind basket is much better. You can temporaily make you own rubber disc (using a innder tube....see my old post), or even use plastic wrap inside (keep it low in the PF, not melt it on the screen).

[gene]

Great info-much appreciated. Particularly liked the pics-------worth a thousand words in most cases.
Did get extra dispersion screens and Cafiza with machine from CC. Also the correct T-handle for the dispersion/screen screw which is great. Had to grit my teeth when using the brush that came with machine. Very disturbing
feeling thinking it is scouring soft brass away.
Forgot about Cafiza and ordedred the new "Full Circle" brand recently. Put it in deep storage for years down the road. $19.95. Ouch!

Should I order a blind basket????? Hmmm, rubber disc does leak but only slightly. Prob stick with rubber for now.

Use strictly double. Gotta soak it for hour or so this afternoon-forgot over weekend. So hard to get basket out of portafilter, been drinking blind past six months. Curious if that helps taste.
Thanks,
gene

[GDK]

Gene, there is an easy way to fix that resistance you get when removing the basket:

1. Remove the basket first
2. With a small screwdriver, pry out the metal wire holding the basket in place by starting from one of the ends - it is like a spring.
3. Slightly bend the three straight sections (middle of the section should go outwards) such that they will become arches, but barely visible arches. It requires a firm push - I used pliers. In other words, do not over do it as the basket may become too loose and will fall as you knock the puck out.
4. Install the wire back in the grooves on the portafilter and test. You can adjust as required.

This solved the problem for me

[coffeeowl]

Well.
I always water-backflush after each coffee session.
I do the chemical too when I have the time, and I clean the screens too. I don't use the brush, you know which one, at all.
I'm happy with that.

[jbb]

On the other hand, I've never experienced ANY difference in taste after a backflush (water or chemical) IF the screens and disc were kept clean before hand.

Yeah, that's fair enough. When I reach for the detergent I guess I'm usually thinking about the screens and the block.

In the wonderful grab bag of stuff that I got with my S1V1 I got two types of dispersion blocks, the old thick one and what I think is the "newer" thinner one designed to give more headroom. Right now I'm using the thinner one. Do the V2 and Mini people get both as well? If so, which do people tend to use? Seems like the designers might have wanted that bigger chunk of brass up there for a reason..... Sorry, to inject a bit of a thread drift.....

[Endo]

I have both thin and thick.

I prefer the thinner (very slightly) since it gives me a little more headroom so I can dose perhaps 1g higher. Although, I understand the thicker one might hold heat a bit more.

Either way, I use them both 50/50 since the taste difference is minimal and the most critical factor taste-wise is to have a "clean" one.