triple baskets

The extended drought is over. LaSpaziale triple baskets are now available from Chris Coffee!
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michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

is there any update on the triple baskets 8)
Niko

Post by Niko »

Not that I know of....
Maybe Tom and/or Fred will see this post and drop Lino a line.
Niko

Post by Niko »

No problem!
Christmas sounds good to me :reindeer:

Thanks for the update, Tom.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

I was getting close to sending my baskets in to Reg Barger, and just get a piston made.

Might still do that, since this project seems it has a long time left.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Yeah, but Reg Barber can't make triple baskets... :?
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Yeah, the triple basket thing would be nice.

In fact that is all I used pretty much with the Livia 90.

Now that I have had a double (that holds a little more than a standard double), I am just used to it.

The problem is, a perfect amount of espresso for me is a triple in the morning. So now I make 1 double and feel a bit cheated, or make 2 doubles and get a little too wired. For some reason it doesn't feel right dumping any of the second shot.
Niko

Post by Niko »

It sounds like you need my freak double basket which easily holds 20 grams but you'll need a different sized tamper - 54+mm is my guess since most of my tampers swim in it. Not only is it wide, it's deeper by quite a bit and with a little work you can cram 21 grams in it.
The best part about this basket is for those people who like to under-dose, the basket can take 16 grams and leave an XXXL space between the puck and the grouphead screens. I've done this a few times and noticed the machine had more of a pre-infusion type of effect...the shot was delayed by several seconds before it started to mousetail into the cups.

A triple is a great size for a one shot, one kill kind of morning 8)
italyhound

Post by italyhound »

This is good news - a triple would be great in my house - sha-WEET.

Evan
Niko

Post by Niko »

...and I didn't say Xmas 2007 either!

Christmas 2008 sounds great!
Weska

Post by Weska »

I second the patiently grateful attitude. I've been well trained.
EricC

Post by EricC »

Many thanks for the info Tom, at least the project is still alive.

Regards
Eric
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Although I would love a triple basket, I would say that just having the 53mm makes things tough enough, and then on top of that the inconsistency between 53mm baskets, and trying to find a tamper....

Sheesh, one day I may end up like someone else around here, with a drawer full of tampers...

With 58mm you just have so many more choices on baskets and tampers, for me this is the biggest sticking point. Not that the 53mm is inferior or superior technically, just the rarity of items available in that size.
Niko

Post by Niko »

bbqnut wrote: Sheesh, one day I may end up like someone else around here, with a drawer full of tampers...
...and who might you be referring to?? :roll:
4vDesmo

Post by 4vDesmo »

Maybe the real problem is that there's no financial incentive to make these things. It isn't like they'll fit a machine other than the S1, right? The poll here on the forum indicates an interest of about 50 units, and probably some number of folks who didn't vote in the poll would go for it.

But at what price? What's a triple basket worth? Not what is it worth in general, but what is it worth to YOU? Chris gets $10 for a LM triple basket, $15 for a new steam tip, $35-45 for additional S1 steam arms, $75-80 for various fancy tampers, etc.

At the end of the day it's a business decision. How do you make it financially attractive (read "business", not "hobby") for someone to manufacture and offer a triple basket for the S1?
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

4vDesmo wrote:Maybe the real problem is that there's no financial incentive to make these things. It isn't like they'll fit a machine other than the S1, right? The poll here on the forum indicates an interest of about 50 units, and probably some number of folks who didn't vote in the poll would go for it.

But at what price? What's a triple basket worth? Not what is it worth in general, but what is it worth to YOU? Chris gets $10 for a LM triple basket, $15 for a new steam tip, $35-45 for additional S1 steam arms, $75-80 for various fancy tampers, etc.

At the end of the day it's a business decision. How do you make it financially attractive (read "business", not "hobby") for someone to manufacture and offer a triple basket for the S1?
You make the volume low, and the price high. I think most around here have already dropped $2000 on a machine, so the perfect icing to the cake (Triple basket + Matched tamper), could be worth $150-$200 to some. Maybe more.
4vDesmo

Post by 4vDesmo »

Ok, no dispute that we've paid a premium for the machine, so we're likely to step up for a triple. I may have missed the basket/tamper combo comment, which would be cool, but I was thinking just the basket. Everyone has their own preference on tampers, I'd guess.

So how much for just a S1 triple basket when a LM triple is $10? Is it worth $20? $30? Those who would use it every day would likely be willing to step up, others might not at a high price.

I'm not looking for a commitment here, I'm hoping someone will decide its worthwhile to manufacture them.
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

TomP10 wrote:
4vDesmo wrote:So how much for just a S1 triple basket when a LM triple is $10? Is it worth $20? $30? Those who would use it every day would likely be willing to step up, others might not at a high price.
I agree -- I think the issue really is price. My guess is that we are taking $45-$50 per basket when it is all said and done. The high cost is because each triple basket requires 2 doubles ($20+), labor of a craftsman, plus shipping charges. I'll buy one --- but it reflects my insanity rather than a sensible buy.

I just can't understand why somebody over at LaSpaz does not get one of its OEM suppliers to produce, say, 500-1000 triple baskets. The cost to LaSpaz would be trivial. LaSpaz could then market them around the world. At $20 a triple basket, Chris would sell hundreds.

- Tom
I suspect if you could get Chris on board it would happen.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

I wonder if a precision machined aluminum part would work?

I think I may have access to get them made, and aluminum would be the easiest and cheapest.

They can mill just about any other material, but with steel, I would worry about rust.

Another thing - They could be milled to very tight tolerances, which could help with tamper issues. The walls could also be made straight.

Put cost aside right now.
Niko

Post by Niko »

The only thing that worries me about aluminum is the fatigue, it's softer so there will be more wear and tear on it....but hey, I'm in if you guys wanna' try it :P
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Niko wrote:The only thing that worries me about aluminum is the fatigue, it's softer so there will be more wear and tear on it....but hey, I'm in if you guys wanna' try it :P
I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.

And no, I am not joking.
4vDesmo

Post by 4vDesmo »

bbqnut wrote: I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.
You mean triples for other brands, any other brand?

Since we're talking 53mm portafilter, could available depth be the reason they aren't offered for the S1?
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

4vDesmo wrote:
bbqnut wrote: I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.
You mean triples for other brands, any other brand?

Since we're talking 53mm portafilter, could available depth be the reason they aren't offered for the S1?
Triples were made, and Niko has one or more I think.

They were just custom made - and that guy decided they were too much trouble.
Niko

Post by Niko »

I don't have a Lino triple.
I got some freak basket bought from EPNW last year that seems to fit about 21 kilos of coffee. I think it's probably a 54mm basket, never measured it but now that you mention all this - I'll grab the digital calipers in the morning and measure.
I posted some pictures of it some time ago...
Image
Image
I was able to cram 21 grams of coffee in it, tamp right up to the ridge and pull a triple ristretto with no problems.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

OK well, I might be able to get away with using a double to start with.

My real concern will be material type, and then secondly cost. I am going to start with aluminum, and see how much that will run me.

What are the thoughts on an inner wall that is the same from top to bottom?
Niko

Post by Niko »

bbqnut wrote: What are the thoughts on an inner wall that is the same from top to bottom?
That would actually be ideal.
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

so are we getting the triple baskets?

for me, having purchased the machine, the grinder etc. i would be willing to pay a reasonable amount to get the triple baskets made

do we know whether the triple baskets we have discussed are still in the works?

will the triple baskets require a new tamper; if so, where will we get the tampers? 8)
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

I am just throwing out the possibility of another way to get triple baskets (machining them).

No disrespect to others, but the original triple basket idea (possibly with matched tamper), is taking too long.

With the machining idea, I could make the inside diameter very precise, and even make a couple of variations in size. Also, the inner walls could be straight from top to bottom, further reducing the worry of tamper fit.
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

so who would machine the new triples? 8)
bbqnut

Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut »

michael wrote:so who would machine the new triples? 8)
That would be my job.

My cousin has run a precision machine shop for years, so that is the only reason I thought about doing something myself. I know the procedure for getting some dimensions, and some prototypes made.

He can give me a good idea of cost up front, so that is why I asked about materials.
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

what are the existing double baskets made from 8)
bbqnut

Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut »

michael wrote:what are the existing double baskets made from 8)
Stamped Stainless Steel
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

that's what i thought; isnt that what should be used if one were to go through the trouble of making them

what would the cost differential be 8)
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Another brilliant idea!

Quadruple baskets!!!
bbqnut

Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut »

michael wrote:that's what i thought; isnt that what should be used if one were to go through the trouble of making them

what would the cost differential be 8)
Here is the problem with stamping:

Sizes change over time. You can't pick a precise size. Also, small batches are much easier and quicker to get into production, and variations are easy to program in. Stamping requires a more involved setup that is unique to your product, machining is much more agnostic, and small runs over time are relatively easy (and less expensive).

And the past triple baskets were not stamped as such. I think the guy took 2 double baskets, cut them apart, and welded them back together.

All that being said, I still don't know the feasibility of machining these things.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Sounds like we need to have a basket stamping party :D

How much $ do think some set-up would cost to have a small run of triples made from scratch? I'm willing to throw down for several if needed, others will probably chime in...who knows, we can get into the triple basket business and go public :P
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Niko wrote:Sounds like we need to have a basket stamping party :D

How much $ do think some set-up would cost to have a small run of triples made from scratch? I'm willing to throw down for several if needed, others will probably chime in...who knows, we can get into the triple basket business and go public :P
If you don't like bottomless, how are you going to use the triples?
Niko

Post by Niko »

Oh, you mean we're not getting matching PF's that weigh 3/4lb with extra depth? :lol:
No problem, in order to drink a triple I can live with a bottomless.
I have two anyways and always keep the Scace on one and I'll save the other for a triple :D
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Niko wrote:Oh, you mean we're not getting matching PF's that weigh 3/4lb with extra depth? :lol:
No problem, in order to drink a triple I can live with a bottomless.
I have two anyways and always keep the Scace on one and I'll save the other for a triple :D
Well the other crazy alternative I have been thinking of was making the whole PF head and basket as once piece (it would screw onto your current handle). My guess is the cost wouldn't be much higher, and then you don't have to worry about depth, or worry about if the machined basket will fit into a current PF head. Of course the ears worry me a bit, but I am really exploring this as a personal project, and then sell them to whoever wants them at a reasonable price (most of the money would probably go to pay back my cousin anyway).

As with all the machined parts, it would be easy to find a good range of widths of the tampers out there, and maybe make 2 or 3 sizes of inside diameter (like 52.7, 53.0, 53.3) or something like that.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Funny thing is that the ears are different on several of my PF's.
So I wouldn't put too much worry into that.
If they're too big, they'll be a tight fit....too small and they'll need more crankin' to the right to get a tight fit.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

The other worry is aluminum. I know there was a bunch of concern over the years about cooking with aluminum.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Yeah, there's nothing like brass or stainless...
4vDesmo

Post by 4vDesmo »

bbqnut wrote:The other worry is aluminum. I know there was a bunch of concern over the years about cooking with aluminum.
I don't think aluminum would be an issue, other than maybe deforming more easily than stainless.

I'm no expert on cooking or the dangers of doing so with aluminum, but we aren't applying heat to the aluminum to get a heat transfer to food in order to cook the food. We're using it to hold ground coffee for 30 seconds as 200 degree, pressurized water makes it's way thru.

I'm willing to be told I'm wrong, but our use seems a bit more tame.
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

if nothing else, the project seems to be more complicated than i thought. i would opt for stainless and would also agree to purchase a few baskets if that was necessary to get the project going

is there any status update on the other triple effort, the cut apart and put together? 8)
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

I'd rather the triples were not made from aluminium.

Oh this triple ristretto... hmmm :angel7:
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

coffeeowl wrote:I'd rather the triples were not made from aluminium.

Oh this triple ristretto... hmmm :angel7:
I am going to try for SS.
Niko

Post by Niko »

YeAh!!
Count me in.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

My concern with any material is the whole "Food Grade" thing.

But prototypes is my second task, after getting an estimate.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Food Grade, Shmood Grade!
I'll take a triple basket made from LEAD at this point! :lol:
EricC

Post by EricC »

Niko wrote:YeAh!!
Count me in.
Me too. :D
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

is this a real project; if so, do we need a count of how many baskets we are making?

will we need new tampers for these baskets?

i would definitely like a basket 8)
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

Everybody needs to just calm down until I have some more info. :twisted:
Niko

Post by Niko »

Cool, no problem... 8)
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

cool here too 8)
EricC

Post by EricC »

cool here three 8)
EricC

Post by EricC »

Thanks for all of your hard work on chasing this with Lino, Tom.

Regards
Eric
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

EricC wrote:Thanks for all of your hard work on chasing this with Lino, Tom.

Regards
Eric
while we are all cooling down 8) , would someone please explain the advantages of a triple basket. I know the obvious triple shot - but I was thinking more of over-dosing a double shot...
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

TomP10 wrote:A quick note -- I am trying to get in touch with Lino to determine the status of the project. (If he doesn't respond to email I just have to keep waiting.)

He has always indicated that he is very busy and that the 53mm triple basket project was a low priority on his list --- but nevertheless it would be nice to get some firm date that we can focus on.

When I get some updated news I will immediately post it to the group.

- Tom
Yes, please do.

I am pretty patient, but it has been a year without a triple basket, and as Popeye would say, "Thats all I can stands, and I cant stands no more".

Actually, I hope we can get some triple baskets, somehow, someway.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Yeah, the vote does count.
I'd send him a PM as well to confirm.
Niko

Post by Niko »

"TomP10" the guy a few posts above us here...
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

any update on any of the triple basket projects 8)
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

Niko,

I like your avatar, but did you know that you're displaying SINGLE shots to each of those cups? Unless you've gotton your hands on a quadruple basket! :D
Niko

Post by Niko »

That's how I drink 'em...
Doubles, but split off into two single cups and then down my throat. I like the crema better and they taste a little sweeter to me.
bbqnut

Post by bbqnut »

TomP10 wrote:(I also found pulling a good triple difficult so I also needed to set aside prep time.)

- Tom
If you don't have the extra minute or two to prep a triple basket, you might want to loosen your schedule up a bit. :P

I got some word back about machining the baskets. It looks like Stainless Steel will make it prohibitively expensive. So at this moment, we are back to plan A....or B or whatever the other plans were.
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

has anyone tried to coax the manufacturer to have the triple baskets made; the baskets could be offered as an option like the other steam wands, four hole tip and the timer

how expensive would the ss baskets be 8)
bbqnut

Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut »

how expensive would the ss baskets be 8)
Materials alone are about $60. So all told $110 each. Even I won't pay that much.
Niko

Re: triple baskets

Post by Niko »

bbqnut wrote:So all told $110 each.
Cool! Put me down for 2.
We're talking about roasters, right? :lol:
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

There is a reason why every manufacturer stamps baskets out of stainless steel; this is the only economically viable way to make them out of an appropriate material.

The approach that has been taken in the past (building triples out of two doubles) is a reasonable one given the current situation. Clearly the "best" solution would be for a manufacturer to produce these. The problem is that there are not enough machines using 53 mm baskets to make this attractive.

Seems to me that the person with the most leverage in this situation is actually Chris. If someone could convince him to try to encourage someone to produce triple baskets for the Vivaldi that would be great.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
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Post by chas »

I was told that when lino made his first batch of triples he approached Chris about reselling them. (Lino had just started selling his bottomless PFs through Chris.) Chris wasn't interested.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

I'd rather someone convince someone else then Chris... he doesn't ship internationally.
I ended ordering my bottomless from espressoparts.
I was told I'm the second owner of Vivaldi II in Europe, yet the distributor in Poland has installed at least another La Spaziale machine while on the way to my place, AND there's some kind of coffee boom in Eastern Europe starting out, So I think it's stupid to waste a good money opportunity and not to want to sell there.
Mmm... I've just made a delicious single :)
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Post by MDL »

Does anyone know how many machines use 53 mm baskets that interchange with the Vivaldi? (i.e. is the market for triples larger than just Vivaldi owners, and if so how much)

I have friends who outsource fabrication to China and I will talk with them about the idea of having baskets produced in China.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

Here
is claimed that there are a few
Niko

Post by Niko »

La Spaziale Vivaldi II
Mazzer Mini Manual
No Hottop yet :)

Love that little detail, "No Hottop yet"!


As for more machines that use 53mm PF's....not many, that's probably the reason why Illy switched their FrancisFrancis machines to 57mm in the recent years. The Vivaldi is a left-hander in right-handed world...
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

so how do we get the triple baskets; is the original project in progress 8)
Niko

Post by Niko »

Lino is working on them.
The original plan started as double baskets with matched tampers by CoffeeLabs, I don't think this plan is going to happen since Lino was given all the matched doubles.
So yeah, No tampers but Yes triples.
I'll take a triple over a tamper any day.

I'm going to work on being tamper-free...
bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 »

Niko wrote:Lino is working on them.
The original plan started as double baskets with matched tampers by CoffeeLabs, I don't think this plan is going to happen since Lino was given all the matched doubles.
So yeah, No tampers but Yes triples.
I'll take a triple over a tamper any day.

I'm going to work on being tamper-free...
Niko,
better get working on that triple spout, three cup avatar! :lol: :lol:
Niko

Post by Niko »

EXXXXXCELLENT!!
Image
EricC

Post by EricC »

Excellent news Tom, once again thank you for all of your hard work and perseverance on this quest.

Regards
Eric
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

great news

so if we are on the list already, there is nothing more to do, correct, just wait?

will these baskets require a new tamper? 8)
Niko

Re: triple baskets

Post by Niko »

michael wrote:will these baskets require a new tamper? 8)
No.
coffeeowl

Post by coffeeowl »

great news! :)
Where's the list??? please put me on!!!
michael

triple baskets

Post by michael »

fantastic 8) 8) 8)
Weska

Post by Weska »

Thank you very much, TomP10.

Brings on a smile.

You and Fred--and Lino--have put a lot of effort into this, and you deserve a lot of credit.
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