triple baskets

The extended drought is over. LaSpaziale triple baskets are now available from Chris Coffee!
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michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:47 am

is there any update on the triple baskets 8)

Niko

Post by Niko » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:07 am

Not that I know of....
Maybe Tom and/or Fred will see this post and drop Lino a line.

Niko

Post by Niko » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:50 am

No problem!
Christmas sounds good to me :reindeer:

Thanks for the update, Tom.

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Post by bbqnut » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:57 am

I was getting close to sending my baskets in to Reg Barger, and just get a piston made.

Might still do that, since this project seems it has a long time left.

Niko

Post by Niko » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:20 am

Yeah, but Reg Barber can't make triple baskets... :?

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Post by bbqnut » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:26 am

Yeah, the triple basket thing would be nice.

In fact that is all I used pretty much with the Livia 90.

Now that I have had a double (that holds a little more than a standard double), I am just used to it.

The problem is, a perfect amount of espresso for me is a triple in the morning. So now I make 1 double and feel a bit cheated, or make 2 doubles and get a little too wired. For some reason it doesn't feel right dumping any of the second shot.

Niko

Post by Niko » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:58 pm

It sounds like you need my freak double basket which easily holds 20 grams but you'll need a different sized tamper - 54+mm is my guess since most of my tampers swim in it. Not only is it wide, it's deeper by quite a bit and with a little work you can cram 21 grams in it.
The best part about this basket is for those people who like to under-dose, the basket can take 16 grams and leave an XXXL space between the puck and the grouphead screens. I've done this a few times and noticed the machine had more of a pre-infusion type of effect...the shot was delayed by several seconds before it started to mousetail into the cups.

A triple is a great size for a one shot, one kill kind of morning 8)

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Post by italyhound » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:38 pm

This is good news - a triple would be great in my house - sha-WEET.

Evan

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:40 pm

...and I didn't say Xmas 2007 either!

Christmas 2008 sounds great!

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Post by Weska » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:41 pm

I second the patiently grateful attitude. I've been well trained.

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Post by EricC » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:59 am

Many thanks for the info Tom, at least the project is still alive.

Regards
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Post by bbqnut » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:29 pm

Although I would love a triple basket, I would say that just having the 53mm makes things tough enough, and then on top of that the inconsistency between 53mm baskets, and trying to find a tamper....

Sheesh, one day I may end up like someone else around here, with a drawer full of tampers...

With 58mm you just have so many more choices on baskets and tampers, for me this is the biggest sticking point. Not that the 53mm is inferior or superior technically, just the rarity of items available in that size.

Niko

Post by Niko » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:33 am

bbqnut wrote: Sheesh, one day I may end up like someone else around here, with a drawer full of tampers...
...and who might you be referring to?? :roll:

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Post by 4vDesmo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm

Maybe the real problem is that there's no financial incentive to make these things. It isn't like they'll fit a machine other than the S1, right? The poll here on the forum indicates an interest of about 50 units, and probably some number of folks who didn't vote in the poll would go for it.

But at what price? What's a triple basket worth? Not what is it worth in general, but what is it worth to YOU? Chris gets $10 for a LM triple basket, $15 for a new steam tip, $35-45 for additional S1 steam arms, $75-80 for various fancy tampers, etc.

At the end of the day it's a business decision. How do you make it financially attractive (read "business", not "hobby") for someone to manufacture and offer a triple basket for the S1?

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Post by bbqnut » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 pm

4vDesmo wrote:Maybe the real problem is that there's no financial incentive to make these things. It isn't like they'll fit a machine other than the S1, right? The poll here on the forum indicates an interest of about 50 units, and probably some number of folks who didn't vote in the poll would go for it.

But at what price? What's a triple basket worth? Not what is it worth in general, but what is it worth to YOU? Chris gets $10 for a LM triple basket, $15 for a new steam tip, $35-45 for additional S1 steam arms, $75-80 for various fancy tampers, etc.

At the end of the day it's a business decision. How do you make it financially attractive (read "business", not "hobby") for someone to manufacture and offer a triple basket for the S1?
You make the volume low, and the price high. I think most around here have already dropped $2000 on a machine, so the perfect icing to the cake (Triple basket + Matched tamper), could be worth $150-$200 to some. Maybe more.

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Post by 4vDesmo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:01 pm

Ok, no dispute that we've paid a premium for the machine, so we're likely to step up for a triple. I may have missed the basket/tamper combo comment, which would be cool, but I was thinking just the basket. Everyone has their own preference on tampers, I'd guess.

So how much for just a S1 triple basket when a LM triple is $10? Is it worth $20? $30? Those who would use it every day would likely be willing to step up, others might not at a high price.

I'm not looking for a commitment here, I'm hoping someone will decide its worthwhile to manufacture them.

bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:23 pm

TomP10 wrote:
4vDesmo wrote:So how much for just a S1 triple basket when a LM triple is $10? Is it worth $20? $30? Those who would use it every day would likely be willing to step up, others might not at a high price.
I agree -- I think the issue really is price. My guess is that we are taking $45-$50 per basket when it is all said and done. The high cost is because each triple basket requires 2 doubles ($20+), labor of a craftsman, plus shipping charges. I'll buy one --- but it reflects my insanity rather than a sensible buy.

I just can't understand why somebody over at LaSpaz does not get one of its OEM suppliers to produce, say, 500-1000 triple baskets. The cost to LaSpaz would be trivial. LaSpaz could then market them around the world. At $20 a triple basket, Chris would sell hundreds.

- Tom
I suspect if you could get Chris on board it would happen.

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Post by bbqnut » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:04 pm

I wonder if a precision machined aluminum part would work?

I think I may have access to get them made, and aluminum would be the easiest and cheapest.

They can mill just about any other material, but with steel, I would worry about rust.

Another thing - They could be milled to very tight tolerances, which could help with tamper issues. The walls could also be made straight.

Put cost aside right now.

Niko

Post by Niko » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:11 pm

The only thing that worries me about aluminum is the fatigue, it's softer so there will be more wear and tear on it....but hey, I'm in if you guys wanna' try it :P

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:19 am

Niko wrote:The only thing that worries me about aluminum is the fatigue, it's softer so there will be more wear and tear on it....but hey, I'm in if you guys wanna' try it :P
I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.

And no, I am not joking.

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Post by 4vDesmo » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:52 am

bbqnut wrote: I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.
You mean triples for other brands, any other brand?

Since we're talking 53mm portafilter, could available depth be the reason they aren't offered for the S1?

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:11 am

4vDesmo wrote:
bbqnut wrote: I am probably going to need you to send me all the triple baskets you have, so I can get an idea of what to build.
You mean triples for other brands, any other brand?

Since we're talking 53mm portafilter, could available depth be the reason they aren't offered for the S1?
Triples were made, and Niko has one or more I think.

They were just custom made - and that guy decided they were too much trouble.

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:25 am

I don't have a Lino triple.
I got some freak basket bought from EPNW last year that seems to fit about 21 kilos of coffee. I think it's probably a 54mm basket, never measured it but now that you mention all this - I'll grab the digital calipers in the morning and measure.
I posted some pictures of it some time ago...
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Image
I was able to cram 21 grams of coffee in it, tamp right up to the ridge and pull a triple ristretto with no problems.

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:45 am

OK well, I might be able to get away with using a double to start with.

My real concern will be material type, and then secondly cost. I am going to start with aluminum, and see how much that will run me.

What are the thoughts on an inner wall that is the same from top to bottom?

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:48 am

bbqnut wrote: What are the thoughts on an inner wall that is the same from top to bottom?
That would actually be ideal.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:06 pm

so are we getting the triple baskets?

for me, having purchased the machine, the grinder etc. i would be willing to pay a reasonable amount to get the triple baskets made

do we know whether the triple baskets we have discussed are still in the works?

will the triple baskets require a new tamper; if so, where will we get the tampers? 8)

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:27 pm

I am just throwing out the possibility of another way to get triple baskets (machining them).

No disrespect to others, but the original triple basket idea (possibly with matched tamper), is taking too long.

With the machining idea, I could make the inside diameter very precise, and even make a couple of variations in size. Also, the inner walls could be straight from top to bottom, further reducing the worry of tamper fit.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:30 pm

so who would machine the new triples? 8)

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Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:35 pm

michael wrote:so who would machine the new triples? 8)
That would be my job.

My cousin has run a precision machine shop for years, so that is the only reason I thought about doing something myself. I know the procedure for getting some dimensions, and some prototypes made.

He can give me a good idea of cost up front, so that is why I asked about materials.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:46 pm

what are the existing double baskets made from 8)

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Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:20 pm

michael wrote:what are the existing double baskets made from 8)
Stamped Stainless Steel

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:28 pm

that's what i thought; isnt that what should be used if one were to go through the trouble of making them

what would the cost differential be 8)

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:29 pm

Another brilliant idea!

Quadruple baskets!!!

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Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:41 pm

michael wrote:that's what i thought; isnt that what should be used if one were to go through the trouble of making them

what would the cost differential be 8)
Here is the problem with stamping:

Sizes change over time. You can't pick a precise size. Also, small batches are much easier and quicker to get into production, and variations are easy to program in. Stamping requires a more involved setup that is unique to your product, machining is much more agnostic, and small runs over time are relatively easy (and less expensive).

And the past triple baskets were not stamped as such. I think the guy took 2 double baskets, cut them apart, and welded them back together.

All that being said, I still don't know the feasibility of machining these things.

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:39 pm

Sounds like we need to have a basket stamping party :D

How much $ do think some set-up would cost to have a small run of triples made from scratch? I'm willing to throw down for several if needed, others will probably chime in...who knows, we can get into the triple basket business and go public :P

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:01 pm

Niko wrote:Sounds like we need to have a basket stamping party :D

How much $ do think some set-up would cost to have a small run of triples made from scratch? I'm willing to throw down for several if needed, others will probably chime in...who knows, we can get into the triple basket business and go public :P
If you don't like bottomless, how are you going to use the triples?

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:13 pm

Oh, you mean we're not getting matching PF's that weigh 3/4lb with extra depth? :lol:
No problem, in order to drink a triple I can live with a bottomless.
I have two anyways and always keep the Scace on one and I'll save the other for a triple :D

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:20 pm

Niko wrote:Oh, you mean we're not getting matching PF's that weigh 3/4lb with extra depth? :lol:
No problem, in order to drink a triple I can live with a bottomless.
I have two anyways and always keep the Scace on one and I'll save the other for a triple :D
Well the other crazy alternative I have been thinking of was making the whole PF head and basket as once piece (it would screw onto your current handle). My guess is the cost wouldn't be much higher, and then you don't have to worry about depth, or worry about if the machined basket will fit into a current PF head. Of course the ears worry me a bit, but I am really exploring this as a personal project, and then sell them to whoever wants them at a reasonable price (most of the money would probably go to pay back my cousin anyway).

As with all the machined parts, it would be easy to find a good range of widths of the tampers out there, and maybe make 2 or 3 sizes of inside diameter (like 52.7, 53.0, 53.3) or something like that.

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:40 pm

Funny thing is that the ears are different on several of my PF's.
So I wouldn't put too much worry into that.
If they're too big, they'll be a tight fit....too small and they'll need more crankin' to the right to get a tight fit.

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:24 pm

The other worry is aluminum. I know there was a bunch of concern over the years about cooking with aluminum.

Niko

Post by Niko » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:40 pm

Yeah, there's nothing like brass or stainless...

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Post by 4vDesmo » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:50 pm

bbqnut wrote:The other worry is aluminum. I know there was a bunch of concern over the years about cooking with aluminum.
I don't think aluminum would be an issue, other than maybe deforming more easily than stainless.

I'm no expert on cooking or the dangers of doing so with aluminum, but we aren't applying heat to the aluminum to get a heat transfer to food in order to cook the food. We're using it to hold ground coffee for 30 seconds as 200 degree, pressurized water makes it's way thru.

I'm willing to be told I'm wrong, but our use seems a bit more tame.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:16 am

if nothing else, the project seems to be more complicated than i thought. i would opt for stainless and would also agree to purchase a few baskets if that was necessary to get the project going

is there any status update on the other triple effort, the cut apart and put together? 8)

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Post by coffeeowl » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:34 pm

I'd rather the triples were not made from aluminium.

Oh this triple ristretto... hmmm :angel7:

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Post by bbqnut » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:43 pm

coffeeowl wrote:I'd rather the triples were not made from aluminium.

Oh this triple ristretto... hmmm :angel7:
I am going to try for SS.

Niko

Post by Niko » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:50 pm

YeAh!!
Count me in.

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Post by bbqnut » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 pm

My concern with any material is the whole "Food Grade" thing.

But prototypes is my second task, after getting an estimate.

Niko

Post by Niko » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:09 pm

Food Grade, Shmood Grade!
I'll take a triple basket made from LEAD at this point! :lol:

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Post by EricC » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:49 am

Niko wrote:YeAh!!
Count me in.
Me too. :D
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michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:20 am

is this a real project; if so, do we need a count of how many baskets we are making?

will we need new tampers for these baskets?

i would definitely like a basket 8)

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Post by bbqnut » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:34 am

Everybody needs to just calm down until I have some more info. :twisted:

Niko

Post by Niko » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:48 am

Cool, no problem... 8)

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:24 pm

cool here too 8)

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Post by EricC » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:48 am

cool here three 8)
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Post by EricC » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:26 am

Thanks for all of your hard work on chasing this with Lino, Tom.

Regards
Eric
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bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:16 am

EricC wrote:Thanks for all of your hard work on chasing this with Lino, Tom.

Regards
Eric
while we are all cooling down 8) , would someone please explain the advantages of a triple basket. I know the obvious triple shot - but I was thinking more of over-dosing a double shot...

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Post by bbqnut » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:48 am

TomP10 wrote:A quick note -- I am trying to get in touch with Lino to determine the status of the project. (If he doesn't respond to email I just have to keep waiting.)

He has always indicated that he is very busy and that the 53mm triple basket project was a low priority on his list --- but nevertheless it would be nice to get some firm date that we can focus on.

When I get some updated news I will immediately post it to the group.

- Tom
Yes, please do.

I am pretty patient, but it has been a year without a triple basket, and as Popeye would say, "Thats all I can stands, and I cant stands no more".

Actually, I hope we can get some triple baskets, somehow, someway.

Niko

Post by Niko » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:34 pm

Yeah, the vote does count.
I'd send him a PM as well to confirm.

Niko

Post by Niko » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:10 pm

"TomP10" the guy a few posts above us here...

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:18 am

any update on any of the triple basket projects 8)

bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:39 am

Niko,

I like your avatar, but did you know that you're displaying SINGLE shots to each of those cups? Unless you've gotton your hands on a quadruple basket! :D

Niko

Post by Niko » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:02 pm

That's how I drink 'em...
Doubles, but split off into two single cups and then down my throat. I like the crema better and they taste a little sweeter to me.

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Post by bbqnut » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:14 am

TomP10 wrote:(I also found pulling a good triple difficult so I also needed to set aside prep time.)

- Tom
If you don't have the extra minute or two to prep a triple basket, you might want to loosen your schedule up a bit. :P

I got some word back about machining the baskets. It looks like Stainless Steel will make it prohibitively expensive. So at this moment, we are back to plan A....or B or whatever the other plans were.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:52 am

has anyone tried to coax the manufacturer to have the triple baskets made; the baskets could be offered as an option like the other steam wands, four hole tip and the timer

how expensive would the ss baskets be 8)

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Re: triple baskets

Post by bbqnut » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:46 am

how expensive would the ss baskets be 8)
Materials alone are about $60. So all told $110 each. Even I won't pay that much.

Niko

Re: triple baskets

Post by Niko » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:01 pm

bbqnut wrote:So all told $110 each.
Cool! Put me down for 2.
We're talking about roasters, right? :lol:

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Post by MDL » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:01 pm

There is a reason why every manufacturer stamps baskets out of stainless steel; this is the only economically viable way to make them out of an appropriate material.

The approach that has been taken in the past (building triples out of two doubles) is a reasonable one given the current situation. Clearly the "best" solution would be for a manufacturer to produce these. The problem is that there are not enough machines using 53 mm baskets to make this attractive.

Seems to me that the person with the most leverage in this situation is actually Chris. If someone could convince him to try to encourage someone to produce triple baskets for the Vivaldi that would be great.

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Post by chas » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:54 pm

I was told that when lino made his first batch of triples he approached Chris about reselling them. (Lino had just started selling his bottomless PFs through Chris.) Chris wasn't interested.
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Post by coffeeowl » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:27 pm

I'd rather someone convince someone else then Chris... he doesn't ship internationally.
I ended ordering my bottomless from espressoparts.
I was told I'm the second owner of Vivaldi II in Europe, yet the distributor in Poland has installed at least another La Spaziale machine while on the way to my place, AND there's some kind of coffee boom in Eastern Europe starting out, So I think it's stupid to waste a good money opportunity and not to want to sell there.
Mmm... I've just made a delicious single :)

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Post by MDL » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:47 pm

Does anyone know how many machines use 53 mm baskets that interchange with the Vivaldi? (i.e. is the market for triples larger than just Vivaldi owners, and if so how much)

I have friends who outsource fabrication to China and I will talk with them about the idea of having baskets produced in China.

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Post by coffeeowl » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:43 pm

Here
is claimed that there are a few
Pawel

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Niko

Post by Niko » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:48 pm

La Spaziale Vivaldi II
Mazzer Mini Manual
No Hottop yet :)

Love that little detail, "No Hottop yet"!


As for more machines that use 53mm PF's....not many, that's probably the reason why Illy switched their FrancisFrancis machines to 57mm in the recent years. The Vivaldi is a left-hander in right-handed world...

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:50 pm

so how do we get the triple baskets; is the original project in progress 8)

Niko

Post by Niko » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Lino is working on them.
The original plan started as double baskets with matched tampers by CoffeeLabs, I don't think this plan is going to happen since Lino was given all the matched doubles.
So yeah, No tampers but Yes triples.
I'll take a triple over a tamper any day.

I'm going to work on being tamper-free...

bluesman13

Post by bluesman13 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:25 pm

Niko wrote:Lino is working on them.
The original plan started as double baskets with matched tampers by CoffeeLabs, I don't think this plan is going to happen since Lino was given all the matched doubles.
So yeah, No tampers but Yes triples.
I'll take a triple over a tamper any day.

I'm going to work on being tamper-free...
Niko,
better get working on that triple spout, three cup avatar! :lol: :lol:

Niko

Post by Niko » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:02 pm

EXXXXXCELLENT!!
Image

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Location: Liverpool UK

Post by EricC » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:28 am

Excellent news Tom, once again thank you for all of your hard work and perseverance on this quest.

Regards
Eric
La Marzocco GS/3, Versalab M3 grinder, Hottop.

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:08 am

great news

so if we are on the list already, there is nothing more to do, correct, just wait?

will these baskets require a new tamper? 8)

Niko

Re: triple baskets

Post by Niko » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:49 am

michael wrote:will these baskets require a new tamper? 8)
No.

coffeeowl
Barista
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: Lodz Poland

Post by coffeeowl » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:54 am

great news! :)
Where's the list??? please put me on!!!
Pawel

_________________
La Peppina
Arrarex Caravel
La Spaziale Vivaldi II
Mazzer Mini
KyM

___________________
'a a ha sha sa ma! Image

michael

triple baskets

Post by michael » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:51 pm

fantastic 8) 8) 8)

Weska
Barista
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:33 pm
Location: Moscow

Post by Weska » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:46 pm

Thank you very much, TomP10.

Brings on a smile.

You and Fred--and Lino--have put a lot of effort into this, and you deserve a lot of credit.

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