1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

What would you change about your LaSpaziale espresso machine?
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JmanEspresso
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1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:46 pm

Ya know, there really IS only ONE thing I would add to the Vivaldi...

1 degree FAHRENHEIT temperature adjustment.

Adding that to the Vivaldi would make it, by far, the best Dual Boiler on the market. As it is, I think it competes with the Duetto II. They both have good features which people want. But the one thing the Duetto has that the VII doesnt, is 1degree Fahrenheit temp adjustment.

If the Vivaldi had it as well, it would be unbeatable in the semi-commercial class of dual boilers.



Anyone else wish/want for this?

Chris, anything in the works?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:24 pm

JmanEspresso wrote:1 degree FAHRENHEIT temperature adjustment.
Anyone else wish/want for this?

Not me! 1*F!! :shock: My God thats huge. I'm running Scace tests on the Speedster today. Just changed the offset to -3.3*F .
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Richard » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:07 pm

JohnB wrote:1*F!! :shock: My God thats huge. I'm running Scace tests on the Speedster today. Just changed the offset to -3.3*F.
What happens to the offset from low to high end of the Jotul's feeding delta? :mrgreen:

Is that 3.3 a significant change from where it's been recently?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:55 pm

[quote="RichardWhat happens to the offset from low to high end of the Jotul's feeding delta? :mrgreen:

Is that 3.3 a significant change from where it's been recently?[/quote]

I checked a few times today several hours apart & saw no difference. Ended up with a -3.2*F setting instead of the -4*F it was set to when I received it.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:14 pm

JmanEspresso wrote:Ya know, there really IS only ONE thing I would add to the Vivaldi...

1 degree FAHRENHEIT temperature adjustment.
I hope you're talking about your preference for Emperial units over Metric, and not that you actually need better temperature resolution than 1 deg C? Cuz that would be ridiculous. :roll:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Richard » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:18 pm

Endo wrote:. . . not that you actually need better temperature resolution than 1 deg C? Cuz that would be ridiculous. :roll:
Actually, Endo, with some coffees 1 degree F adjustments in temperature are quite noticeable in the cup.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:25 pm

Richard wrote:Actually, Endo, with some coffees 1 degree F adjustments in temperature are quite noticeable in the cup.
"Princess and the pea". So low on the taste radar.....comes just before holding your breath during shots I think. :lol:

Mythbusters needs to do a show on 3rd wave coffee.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:50 am

Endo wrote:
Richard wrote:Actually, Endo, with some coffees 1 degree F adjustments in temperature are quite noticeable in the cup.
"Princess and the pea". So low on the taste radar.....comes just before holding your breath during shots I think. :lol:

Mythbusters needs to do a show on 3rd wave coffee.
+1, If anyone can tell a difference, so be it, but I cannot. Or at least I cannot say that it is that 0.1 degree that taste what I taste because of the other much more evident variables that are affecting that taste.

Anyway, I just may be happier not being able to taste the difference.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:05 pm

I'm no professional cupper but I can taste the difference when I move up or down 1*F on the Speedster when I'm trying to bring out the best in a blend or particularly a S/O. Supposedly .5*F is the limit as far as being able to taste a difference.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Perhaps a better way for me to have described it is that there are SO many more important parameters at play in each shot (like coffee blend, freshness, dose, technique, etc) that a change of 1 deg F will never be noticed.

More often, when people say they can taste a difference, it's because they change the temp by 1 deg C, pull a shot and say "ahhh...that's quite different". But even if they didn't change the temp, they would have said the same thing! :grin: Shots are just NOT that repeatable. That's the pain (and beauty) of espresso.

Before we talk about 1 deg F, try this. Pull shots back to back with no change. And also pull a third with a 1 deg C temp change. Get someone to mix up the shots and pick out the one that was pulled 1 deg C hotter.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:22 pm

Endo you might be the one that needs to work on your technique if you can't get repeatability in your shots. Once I dial in a grind & temp that works I can continue pulling that shot throughout the day. I am of course checking the dose on a scale, getting excellent distribution out of the Major's modded doser & pulling shots on a machine known for its temp stability.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:38 pm

Endo, maybe it's ridiculous to you, and maybe YOU cant taste a 1degree change in temperature, and maybe YOU aren't consistent enough shot to shot to appreciate such a difference...

But please dont presume to tell ME what I can and can not taste.


Endo, you're a big milk drinker right? You don't often weigh out your doses? And you, "just dose and tamp, no distribution", correct? Nothing wrong with that, and Im not saying there is. BUT, if you dont think you have good consistency shot to shot, then Im going to echo what John said... Maybe it's your technique that needs work. And I wouldnt expect anyone to detect a small change in temperature in a latte. And maybe you aren't able to taste a 1degree change in a straight shot. But many can, including myself.

Having 1 degree F granularity would be very useful, and Id pay for it. If it wouldn't be useful to you, just say that, dont tell me what Im after is ridiculous, because you're wrong.

The temperature on the Vivaldi is adjusted by ALMOST 2 degrees fahrenheit. There is a CLEAR as day difference between shots pulled at 92 and 93... even if the coffee does well at both temps, the shot changes dramatically. Body, Mouthfeel, Crema and Flavor all change very much. Some coffees dont respond to temp changes as well, having a much smaller sweet spot. Being able to adjust my ONE DEGREE, would be incredibly useful, and Id bet many users would want it.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:59 pm

Just putting a good word for Endo.

I just did a search on this page and I cannot see anywhere the word ridiculous in any of Endo's post.

Jeff, I am happy that you can get such clear distinction in your shots. I suffer from consistency issues and I am working on it.

I WILL taste the difference between two shots and I am sure that Endo, John, Chas, Richard, my wife and my niece WILL taste the difference as well. The point that I was trying to make earlier and I believe that it is what Endo was also going for, is that there are not that many people that will be able to say WHY they taste that difference.

Of course repeatability and consistency helps a lot in isolating variables and identifying the effect of a single one. The smaller the effect of any given change, the harder it will be to isolate its effect on the end product. I am not saying that you or anyone else is not capable of such a achievement but it would require much more work for me than I am willing to on a daily basis. More power to you if you can.

But than, I just remembered the "significant" amount of espresso you consume every day. That puts you miles ahead of me in the learning and taste experience.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:16 pm

slo wrote:Just putting a good word for Endo.

I just did a search on this page and I cannot see anywhere the word ridiculous in any of Endo's post.
Really, what about this?
Endo wrote:I hope you're talking about your preference for Emperial units over Metric, and not that you actually need better temperature resolution than 1 deg C? Cuz that would be ridiculous. :roll:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:30 pm

Ok John! I am wrong! Don't know how I missed that? Maybe because it was no big deal and I am sure that no offense was meant.

I will shut up now and step away from the keyboard!
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:02 pm

Wow Jman! In one month you've mastered your new machine and can make perfectly repeatable shots. And now one of the world's most temperature stable pro-sumer machines is not sophisticated enough for your palate and requires modification beyond what La Spaziale and Chris Coffee have already done.

You're either a world barista champion in hiding or some kind of espresso savant! :lol:

If you really need better temperature resolution, just try adding to your technique some temperature surfing between the 1 deg Cs. BA HAHA. :lol:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:21 am

Yep, thats what I said. Word for word.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:32 am

slo wrote:Ok John! I am wrong! Don't know how I missed that? Maybe because it was no big deal and I am sure that no offense was meant.
Those of us that have been here since Endo joined the forum 13 months ago are used to his "shoot from the lip" style of posts. Its always fun to watch him try to dig his way back out after the opening barrage. It didn't go over well on H-B as you might imagine but I actually missed him when he took a few months off from posting here & I'm glad to see him back.

If it seems like we are sometimes hard on him its just that you didn't have to live through the first few months of his daily "it must be the machines fault" posts while he worked on his technique & learned to buy freshly roasted beans.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:34 pm

Joining and Participating in a long standing forum is hard and full of pitfall.

There are relationship established that take a while to understand for a new comer like me. But this forum is so rich in information that relates precisely to my daily life that I am willing to take a few jabs and learn to understand everyone (that is IF I ever do!).

It is all right, we do not have to agree on everything. As long as we all share the love of the Vivaldi ...err a good machine. :lol:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:07 pm

Well it's a heck of a lot more fun than home Bore-ista. They banned me long ago. I said one of their over-priced sponsor's products (Olympia Maximatic) was not as good a deal as the cheaper unsponsored American made Salvatore (with a 10 year warranty BTW). Seems censorship is not just for China. :evil: These money making coffee forum websites have some serious conflict of interest issues (plus they have zero sense of humor).

Much better here where over-priced machines and bad vendors aren't competing for my attention! :grin:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:14 pm

JohnB wrote: If it seems like we are sometimes hard on him its just that you didn't have to live through the first few months of his daily "it must be the machines fault" posts while he worked on his technique & learned to buy freshly roasted beans.
Freshness rules !!!

:lol: :lol: You forgot "new grinder burrs". Boy....that was a bad month. :-(

John, I'm so glad you haven't moved on to start your own Speedster forum. You always crack me up.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:51 pm

Endo wrote:Well it's a heck of a lot more fun than home Bore-ista. They banned me long ago. I said one of their over-priced sponsor's products (Olympia Maximatic) was not as good a deal as the cheaper unsponsored American made Salvatore (with a 10 year warranty BTW). Seems censorship is not just for China. :evil: These money making coffee forum websites have some serious conflict of interest issues (plus they have zero sense of humor).

Much better here where over-priced machines and bad vendors aren't competing for my attention! :grin:
You had your moments last year on Coffee Geek, too, didn't you? :angel12:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:52 pm

chas wrote: You had your moments last year on Coffee Geek, too, didn't you? :angel12:
True. :lol: But you get 3 strikes on CoffeeGeek so I'm saving my last strike for something really special. ;-)
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:08 pm

Endo wrote:
chas wrote: You had your moments last year on Coffee Geek, too, didn't you? :angel12:
True. :lol: But you get 3 strikes on CoffeeGeek so I'm saving my last strike for something really special. ;-)
Does that mean you're on Super Secret probation? So far on the S1 Forum you have no strikes but you do have a pair of balls!
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by SwingT » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:49 pm

Bwahahahahahah

Back on topic.

I have little doubt that such a small difference in temp could be tasted by an aficionado.

heh - my problem is I'm not sure I am that consistent with my tamping :smile:

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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Niko » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:16 pm

chas wrote:So far on the S1 Forum you have no strikes but you do have a pair of balls!
:lol: :lol: I was wondering about that warning system. :laughing3:
SwingT wrote:Bwahahahahahah
Back on topic.
I have little doubt that such a small difference in temp could be tasted by an aficionado.
heh - my problem is I'm not sure I am that consistent with my tamping :smile:
I would take a Fahrenheit scale over Celsius any day. That would be a pretty cool upgrade that would probably require a new temp probe and a firmware update.

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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:31 am

Niko,

I agree, I assumed, at the very least, a new probe and a re-programming of the board would be needed.

Im more then positive Chris could do it, but the question is, will he do it.

Another "upgrade" that would happen simply by changing the VII to Fahrenheit 1degree adjustment, would be a further decreased delta.

Currently, it takes a half degree drop for the heater to kick in. But thats 1/2 of a degree Celsius, which is roughly 1degree Fahrenheit. Well.. IDK that this would change simple by the nature of switching to 1F adjustment... It would depend on the probe that "they" use for this upgrade.

I'd really like to see this happen to the Vivaldi. I think its the most obvious improvement to be made, because the rest of the machine is pretty gosh dilly darn solid.

Maybe Ill send Chris an Email, and see what his thoughts are on this. I have this feeling in the back of my mind, that he already has thought of this, but ran into problems trying to get it done. But, lets say that isn't the case... It could even be done on a "pre-order" basis, instead of changing over all the machines(like when the improvements were made to the original VII's, peoples boards were upgraded, and then the new shipments had the improvements), you could pay for upgrade if you want it, and if you dont, dont.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:36 am

Although the changes proposed are possible they would require more sensitive and precise temperature transducer and processing hardware. Maybe the current hardware can do it but I am assuming not for the sake of this post.

There are many other mods and improvement that could be done to the Vivaldi but these would cost more. I believe that Chris is trying to keep the Vivaldi in the current price point. He already sell a better performer in the G/S 3.

When you are done modding the Vivaldi with finer temperature control and pressure profiling the overall cost will be much higher than most of us would have paid for the Vivaldi. Get to the $3000 mark and I am no longer looking at the Vivaldi.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:37 am

With only 7 temp lamps 91-97C, what range would they cover in F?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Niko » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:16 am

chas wrote:With only 7 temp lamps 91-97C, what range would they cover in F?
Not much....I was thinking the same thing. It would require a new panel and the price would definitely increase.

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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:20 pm

You'd probably want to be able to display from 190-203F which would require 14 lamps. I guess they could program in another setup feature that could toggle the display range between 190-196 and 197-203.

If they did this it would at least require a new temp sensor, a board return to CC for reprogramming, and a new stick-on label for the front panel nomenclature change.

Or sell it and buy a GS/3 or a Speedster, right John? :twisted:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:08 pm

chas wrote: Or sell it and buy a GS/3 or a Speedster, right John? :twisted:
That certainly would solve the whole problem wouldn't it. Just put the ol' Vivaldi up for sale & do your part to get the economy moving again. Why settle for 1*F when you can have .1*F!!! Go for the gold :cheers:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:12 pm

OK rub it in that the GS/3 can only be programmed in 0.3F increments.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:30 pm

chas wrote:OK rub it in that the GS/3 can only be programmed in 0.3F increments.
I wasn't aware of that. What does LM use to control the steam boiler? PID or electronic control. Easy to change temp/pressure?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:53 pm

My 2009 Mini Vivaldi came direct from La Spaziale like this.

Not sure what the 120 deg C is good for....but I sure can taste the difference (after the pain goes away that is). :shock:

One long push of the Boiler button and it switches to 1 deg C (in case anybody was wondering).
DSC01150 (2) (480x361).jpg
5 deg C Increments
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 pm

Looks like a Mini 1 not a V2.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:09 am

Yup. Hold down a button for 10 sec and it's a V2. Gotta love that.

I have both temp range stickers on my machine. Choose range or resolution.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by oton » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:10 am

JmanEspresso wrote: Anyone else wish/want for this?
Not me. I do not find it useful.

Endo usually makes some harsh comments, but this time I agree with him. Sorry but I do not believe that anybody in this world will notice the difference between +-1F.

I find that Coffee forums are usually like Audiophile forums... lots of suggestion, myths, esotericism and placebo effects where people believe what they want to believe.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:18 am

[quote="oton
I find that Coffee forums are usually like Audiophile forums... lots of suggestion, myths, esotericism and placebo effects where people believe what they want to believe.[/quote]

Such as yourself? You'll never know until you try it. It's obvious that there are lots of espresso drinkers who can't pick out anything but chocolate but others can notice subtle differences & flavors.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by oton » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:30 am

Such as myself or perhaps as yourself, who knows, uh? ;-)

There is an article about wine tasting which I find interesting:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 53628.html
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:47 am

oton wrote:Such as myself or perhaps as yourself, who knows, uh? ;-)

There is an article about wine tasting which I find interesting:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 53628.html
Nothing too surprising there. Maybe the temperature the wine was served at varied by 1*F up or down each day accounting for the different ratings?? :twisted:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:54 pm

No sense arguing. Unless your willing to do a series of blind taste tests (certified by an independent 3rd party), you might as well be debating religion. "I BELIEVE" :lol:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by slo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:05 pm

Thank you Oton, very nice article.

The thing is, like Endo is suggesting, if you truly BELIEVE that you can taste a difference, your mind will make you taste that difference whether it is there or not.

This made me think of my own beliefs. When I was arguing on HB that I could clearly taste the soap after a wash of my cup the dishwasher liquid, I may have simply extrapolated what my mother told me to never wash her tea pot because it made it taste like soap. Still to this day I am tasting that soap.

I am happy that I cannot taste the difference (1°F) If tasting it will make me want to buy a machine that cost gazillion... I would still pay gazillion (if I had it) to buy a machine that looks as good as the speedster... :mrgreen:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:25 pm

While I'm sure there are people that CAN tell the difference of 0.5C, they would first need to have the taste buds (a super taster), the skills to isolate and repeat the shot (a pro barista) and the training to identify it (a pro cupper).

While I'm sure people like this exist, and perhaps they are all in this forum :roll: , but there are just far too any many people claiming to have the skills for me to believe it.

I think there are far more people who want to believe they are better tasters than they are. Perhaps to justify the purchase of a expensive and redundant piece of equipment they are obsessed with from reading too much H-B. :lol:
Last edited by Endo on Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:28 pm

Here's a photo of my Dual Range Mini Mk1.5. 8)

Don't use the lower scale much. Not much falls outside 91C-95C (unless I'm experimenting).
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:01 pm

How did I know this would turn into a debate about how people can taste things?


First of all.. There is a HUGE, HUGE, MASSIVE difference, between being able to taste a difference of 1F in the cup, and tasting the EFFECTS of a 1F change in the cup.

I guarantee that almost NO ONE, can taste five glasses of water, held at different, stable temperatures, and know exactly which one is at which temperature. IMPOSSIBLE, and thats NOT what Im after.

Honestly, I DONT care what temperature I use to pull shots. Whether its 197 or 203, I DONT CARE. What I DO care about, is the RESULT of using such a temperature. What FLAVORS come out of the coffee at 197. How does it change going to 198? 196?

To me, the difference between shots pulled at different temps on the Vivaldi, is NIGHT AND DAY. Whether or not the coffee responds well to those temps, regardless. Lets take for example, Counter Culture Rustico.. A blend I know very well.

After Dialing in, I found that 92C produced very nice shots. So did 91, and so did 93. DIFFERENT, but still very nice.

At 92, the coffee is what counter culture describes it as. Carmelized sugar, Figs, Dark Chocolate. For me, the Figs are complimented by a very subtle apricot note, and there is also a very sweet caramel and brown sugar taste to go along with the Dark Chocolate. There is good crema, and good, medium-heavy body. At 92C, Rustico produces some nice shots.

Change to 91. the Chocolate softens up to a more creamy chocolate, not as bittersweet. The brown sugar is almost completely gone. But, the Figs and Apricots are much more noticeable, and complimented by an added black grape note.. very subtle, but its there, and is wonderful. The caramelized sugar, is more like a poorly made Brulee', where some of the sugar isn't melted.. Its sweeter. The body is a bit lighter, but, strangely, the crema is thicker and more abundant. Stirring this cup before drinking slightly, does wonders, melding all these flavors into one incredibly delicous shot, instead of being layered(and equally delicous). I prefer my straight shots at 91C.

Change to 93. The Dark Chocolate is right up front, and reminds me of a very dark 90%+ dark Chocolate. Its slightly tannic and dry, which goes with the Grape note I was getting at 93. The Brown Sugar tasted ever so slightly burnt, and the fruit was all but gone. The body was heavy, and the crema was just as thick and heavy. body was similar to 92C shots, and crema was similar to 91C shots. Straight, it was a bit much, but in milk, it was lovely. Creamy chocolate and bruleed/caramelized sugar. The grape that I tasted early was slightly noticeable in the beggining of the drink, but was lost towards the end.

So.. what did I take from all this? Simple. 91c I much preffered as a straight shot. 92C did very well as a straight shot, but did better as a Machiatto(my fave milk drink). 93, for a straight shot, was not what i liked. But, in a 7oz-8oz cappa, it was wonderful.


So, what does this mean? does this mean Im a super taster? Or maybe someone who just makes all this stuff up and really tastes "Coffee", with a slight chocolate hint? Ill leave it to you to decide.

I wager that anyone who been drinking espresso for some time, would be able to taste just what I tasted, at different temperatures. You might even taste more flavors then I did.

THIS is what Im talking about when it comes to tasting differences of temperature. Its not being able to say, "this was pulled at 197 degree", but rather, TASTING THE DIFFERENCES THOSE TEMP CHANGES BRING ABOUT. The REASON I would like TRUE 1Degree adjustment, is for even more ability to fine tune the shot, to bring out the flavors I WANT to taste, and to be able to tailor the shot to what Im drinking, whether it be espresso or Machiatto, or even Cappas.

Now, if all you can taste is "coffee", and all the blends taste the same to you.. Well.. you should be interested in developing your palate. There are PLENTY of ways to develop your palate. You simply need to learn the difference between TASTING coffee, and DRINKING coffee(because yes, there is a HUGE difference). You need to familiarize yourself with the flavors that exist in coffee, because if you dont know what they taste like, how can you taste them?

If you're truly interested in developing your palate, and not just arguing and telling me I cant taste anything more then you can, or that my machine is not sophisticated enough for me.. Then good.. Im glad. EspressoParts sells a kit, called Nez du Cafe'. It is similar to what they use in the Wine Industry. It is filled with Vials full of different scents, that smell exactly how they would taste in a cup of coffee. Another way to develop your palate, is to eat. Eat eat eat. Try new foods. Go to good restaurants and try foods prepared by top Chefs, who love what they do. IVe worked as a cook for 6 years, and one of the most important things I learned from my Chefs, was HOW to taste food. I had a Chef who literally held my hand through the entire process, the entire time I worked for him. Yes I became a better cook, but what I value the most, is how he changed my palate.

Here's a question to ask yourself. DO you drink wine? Yes? Ok. When you drink wine, what do you taste? Is every bottle the same to you? Do you just taste "wine"? Many people taste nothing but "Wine", and are fine with that. If thats you, think about working on developing your palate. I guarantee you will not be sorry as your palate begins to grow.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:41 pm

Almost longer the the Bible (and almost as convincing) ....I BELIEVE! :lol:

I applaud your passion! :salute:

While as you know I'm not in the 0.1C camp, I still wouldn't mind seeing this on the Mk3 (as long as I can easily swap it onto my Mk1). :grin:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by BrewHaHa » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:36 pm

JmanEspresso wrote:I had a Chef who literally held my hand through the entire process, the entire time I worked for him.
Literally held your hand the entire time you worked for him?? How long did you work there? How did either of you get anything done? :lol:

(I'm sure when you say "literally" you actually mean just the opposite: "figuratively". Sorry, one of my pet peeves about the degradation of language.)

All that aside, you're totally right about training the senses. It's true of ALL the senses. For example, just because the Braille next to elevator buttons feels like nothing more than just a rough surface to me doesn't mean someone who is more "in tune" can't read those bumps and know what button to press.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:56 am

Endo wrote:Almost longer the the Bible (and almost as convincing) ....I BELIEVE! :lol:

I applaud your passion! :salute:

While as you know I'm not in the 0.1C camp, I still wouldn't mind seeing this on the Mk3 (as long as I can easily swap it onto my Mk1). :grin:
Shouldn't that display be reading "198.5F"?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:15 am

Do you weigh your beans in stones? Do you measure your machine height in hands? Water boils at 100C and freezes at 0C. Time to modernize and get with the rest of the world. :lol:
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by chas » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:39 am

Endo wrote:Do you weigh your beans in stones? Do you measure your machine height in hands? Water boils at 100C and freezes at 0C. Time to modernize and get with the rest of the world. :lol:
You've got me on the stones and hands. I measure my beans in ounces and pounds and my machine in inches and feet.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:36 pm

Endo wrote:Do you weigh your beans in stones? Do you measure your machine height in hands? Water boils at 100C and freezes at 0C. Time to modernize and get with the rest of the world. :lol:
Screw em!! :twisted: We tried that metric thing for a few months back in the 70's but the whole "miles per liter" thing just didn't work for us. Besides 212*F sounds much more impressive then 100C!! :lol: My 1 daily concession is weighing my doses in grams & all my vehicles do require metric wrenches.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Weska » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Interesting thread, guys, that throws up a lot of issues at once. I'll come down on the skeptical side about tasting fine variations from temperature or anything else. I do, however, believe that there are "qualified observers" whose opinions are better informed than the general run of folks. Opinions from others will tend to conform to theirs over time. But it's a very fallible process identifying who those qualifed ones are.

Double-blind tests of nearly anything often show surprisingly high ratings for humble offerings. The reason is not only charlatanry and self-promotion. Context, suggestion, past experience, commitment, and recent sensory exposure all keep us from making repeatable assessments. We are not laboratory instruments that can be calibrated and whose readings can be trusted throughout the day. No, what we ate, drank, our mood, our attentiveness, our knowledge of what we are tasting--all these have a large impact on our perception. Physiological and symbolic factors intervene and disrupt any simple correlation between what we sense (directy, whatever that means) and what we experience.

Add to this that espresso arguably can't have a proper double-blind test because the shots vary so much even from the best baristas and because a shot waiting even a few seconds for you to get to tasting it won't taste the same as if it had been drunk straight off the drip tray without even hitting the saucer. And the espresso is so intense and cloaking--the prized long aftertaste--that it is bound to alter the perception of the second shot tasted.

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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:29 pm

Beautifully put! :smile:

I find I can really enjoy a shot one day and feel very different about the same shot the next. So 1 deg F? Why bother?
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JmanEspresso » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:50 am

Just like every, single, thing, in, the, world...

Some people see the advantage, others don't. And thats fine.


I think whether or not you see that it would improve the machine, any machine.. depends on how you make espresso. Meaning, what kinds of coffee do you use, and what kind of drinks do you make.

Do you enjoy the "popular" blends? Blends that are forgiving to work with? To put it simply, "Comfort Food Blends". From your Chocolate Bombs and Crema Bombs, to your "classic espressos"... They all fit in the same general group. Sure, they all have their differences, of course. But they all have one thing in common. They're easy to work with, and they taste great. IDK one person who doesnt enjoy a shot of one of the "popular" blends.(Toscano, Redline, Belle, Ecco 'Spro).

Now, Im NOT saying one thing bad about these blends, I like them too. I order them, and enjoy them. They work on many different types of machines, with many different styles. AND, its easy to see how, if these are your bread&butter, you're most ordered coffee's, that tighter temperature control isn't something on the top of your list of things you want. Simply for the fact that, as the Vivaldi is, there is no problem with dialing in these coffees, and pulling shots that taste exactly as they should.

The people that I THINK would most want, and would benefit the most, from tighter temp control.. And the people who buy and enjoy coffees which are harder to work with. Blends or single origins, doesnt matter, though, there tends to be much more single origins in this group then blends. Im talking about coffees which are NOT chocolate bombs, that DO have brightness and acidity.. That contain these subtle, fleeting nuances that are hard to detect, but incredibly rewarding. Coffees that turn either completely flat, or terribly unbalanced if any number of things was out of place.. Just like temperature needs to be spot on for such coffees, so does a number of other things which are harder to dial in then brew temperature.. like Dose, Grind and Extraction Ratios to name the obvious ones. If THESE are the coffees you like to work with, then tighter temperature control would of coarse be beneficial.. . .

Why? Is it because brew temperature is the most important variable, and I will be obsessed with it until I have .1F granularity? Sorry, No. Temperature is the only thing the barista cant change. Choosing a coarser grind and a harder tamp, or a finer grind and a lighter tamp, a heavy extraction or a light extraction, pulling more or less soluble and insoluble solids into the cup.. These are all things the barista can, and should be altering to let the coffee shine. Temperature is machine dependent. And, for a lot of situations, the way the VII is set up, does a damn good job, a DAMN good job. But, tighten up the temperature control, to the level of 1F, or even .5F, and it takes the machine "out of the way". It is no longer something you need to compensate for, and becomes merely a tool for you to craft your coffee, without getting in the way.

Look at what all the top espresso bars are working with today. Coffees that, 5years ago, would never, ever have been thought to put out good espresso. Not too long ago, single origin espresso was not a popular thing.. it was thought of as unbalanced, and that for the harsh conditions espresso brewing puts the coffee through, delicate coffees could not stand up to it, and would fall apart. As far as espresso technology goes, Mark Prince says it best. It is in it's INFANCY. Aside from a FEW companies out there, 99% of the industry is based upon a 50yr old design. But, because of these few companies pushing the envelope on what is possible, in a very short period of time, espresso coffees have grown from low-grown south and central americans blended with low grown robustas, to what we know, which is phenomenal estate and coop microlots being used to craft some of the most phenomenal espresso yet. A major factor in this, is of course, Roasters who are working on Direct Trade models, starting at the dirt and trees. The other major factors, I think.. Are machine advancement, and grinder advancement. Machines allowing for uber-tight temperature profiles, and now pressure profiling, and grinders with ground-up designs based around superior, large conical burrs.

Now..For the work that a FEW roasters are doing with Direct Trade, is awesome. there are some fantastic people, putting out some fantastic coffee. But, for that fantastic coffee to shine to it fullest potential as espresso, the machine needs to be BETTER then what is being asked of it. the Grinders needs to be BETTER then just "doing the job". And right now, those machines are machines with uber-stable temperatures and gentle application of water, and those grinders are grinders with slow spinning, large conical burrs, which hold back no stale grounds.


I dont expect what I say to change anyones mind.. Who am I but just another passionate coffee lover. But Tighter temperture control is obviously beneficial, and changing the Vivaldi over from 1C to 1F, would be an obvious improvement. Whether or not the Vivaldi will see such an improvement, is a whole 'nother ball game. Whether or not YOU, the reader, would appreciate, or even want such an improvement, is a whole 'nother sport.
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by Endo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:26 pm

A note from James Hoffman's latest blog:

"On a personal note my belief is that about 1°C is the minimum that people can distinguish with temperature as the only variable. The latter part of the sentence does make things very difficult I know. Couple that with the range of accuracy of most probes, despite the fact that they may read down to .1°F – it doesn’t meant they are absolutely accurate to that degree ".
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Re: 1 Degree Fahrenheit Adjustment

Post by JohnB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:46 am

James has lots of opinions about coffee, make up your own mind. Tell me you wouldn't spring for it if L/S offered a 1*F software upgrade for your machines at a reasonable price?? As far as the probe accuracy a Scace device should answer that question & the offset will correct any issues.
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