alternative to Spaziale timer

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MonkeyK
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alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:04 am

http://www.altronix.com/products/produc ... ame=PT724A

Reading the installatiopn instructions, I see that it supports pulse events of 1-15 seconds.

google shopping says it can be had for as little as $72

<later>
I see that it is also sold as a Honeywell device
http://www.honeywellpower.com/relays-hpt724.html
Last edited by MonkeyK on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: alternative timer - would this work?

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:00 am

Now that I know to look for momentary events, other similar devices include:

EE Systems Group EE678TS
http://www.eesgi.com/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=13

Seco Larm has a couple (the 7 day timer is in a nice enclosure)
7 day, supporting "pulse" events: http://www.seco-larm.com/SA-027WQ.htm
annual: http://www.seco-larm.com/SA-027.htm


Looking through the documentation for all of the timers that I have listed, I do not see anything speaking to acceptable operating temperatures.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:48 pm

As I think about it, I am fairly convinced that these will do the job.

If anyone looking at this has electronics experience, I would appreciate any comments on quality. All of the annual timers cost about the same. The 7 day one can be had a little cheaper, but in the price range, I would rather buy the one most likely to last.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:42 pm

I like the SECO one below. I think they will all do the job but I like this one since it is the only one with a case. The rest are just on a naked circuit board. It is on sale at the link below for $53.25 which is a pretty good price.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:58 pm

As I think it through some more, I need to figure out that I am considering the right interface.
The timers that I have linked to tend to specify an input of 12-24 volts. I can test for this by checking the timer cable.
Then they intend to switch power via a relay.
Anyone have any idea if the Vivaldi already implements the Relay (my guess is yes)? Or does La Spaziale build that into their timer?
I guess that I can test that by checking the output of the control board when the power button is pressed.

It seems reasonable that the control panel is not running at 120vAC, so I am guessing that I am still on the right path.

After that I need to figure out the pins on the time connector. There must be power in, power out and a switch open, so I will have to figure out how to id those.

typical me. Leap headfirst, then start to consider consequences. At least I haven't bought the timer yet.

Outside of any other electronics considerations, I agree with you chas. I'll take the one that is already in a box.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:47 pm

The OEM La Spaziale timer actually has a serial interface which communicates with the controller board and the controller board then commands the S1 to turn on or off. With the external modules you are researching, you'll have to connect the normally open contacts from its relay across the contacts at the back of the S1's On/Stby switch. Then you program the external timer to close(short) these contacts for about 1 second in order to turn the S1 on and off. You are effectively using an "electronic finger" to press the On/Stby button,

As you noted, you also need a 12V or 24V AC or DC source to power the timer module. I am not sure this is available inside the S1. You may need to purchase an external transformer to provide you with one of these voltages. Since it doesn't matter which of these you use, I'd check Radio Shack or Amazon.com and get the cheapest and smallest option available.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by bgour » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:55 pm

FWIW, here is my Rube Goldberg timer solution:

Digital appliance timer, with a 12v power adapter plugged into it. The adapter powers a simple relay circuit made from a Radio Shack 12v relay and capacitor.

7am, appliance timer comes on, powers the adapter, which powers the relay which closes the on/off button circuit ("electronic finger" that chas mentions above). The capacitor in the circuit saturates after the requisite 4-5 seconds, re-opening the on/off circuit. A minute later the appliance timer shuts off as it's no longer needed.

It was a fun little project and I actually had the parts on hand. Very safe for the Vivaldi since it's not doing anything more than pressing the power button (effectively). Been working flawlessly for over 2 years. Nothing better than coming downstairs in the morning to a fully heated Vivaldi!
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:03 am

I just finished checking out the timer connection.

I unwrapped the vinyl and found a three wire female connector:
Black Grey Blue
Stuck parts of paper clips into each female recepticle and turned the timer switch to on

Then measured with my multimeter
AC went all wierd
Setting the multimeter to DC got me
Black-Blue 15v
Black-Grey 10V
Grey-Blue 5v
Weird, I kind of expected one pair to read 0

So then I turned the timer switch to "off" and measured again, just for fun
Black-Blue 15v
Black-Grey 10V
Grey-Blue 5v
So now I know why they keep the plug wrapped... Plus I'm really grateful for low voltage DC.

Anyway, I found a convenient source for 15v DC

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by GDK » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:52 pm

I will not be surprised if the voltages in steady state remain the same regardless of whether the machine is on or off (while controlled by the timer). I would bet that voltages change for a short period of time (providing a pulse of some length) only when machine is being turned on or off by the timer. My guess is based on the fact that the manual buttons still function fully independently.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:38 pm

it has arrived! Image

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:11 pm

I just tested it with the continuity test on my multimeter. Pulse works exactly as expected. Looks like I have my weekend project!

A am assuming that I can use the thinnest wire that I can find (18 awg?). Any tips for soldering to the control board? I am not a very experienced solderer, but I have been practicing by soldering wires to transistors on some junked circuit boards over the last week.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:54 pm

And it's installed and working! My soldering sucks but it was good enough to attach to the control cable posts.

Overall, if one can solder this is a very easy project.
Last edited by MonkeyK on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:06 am

I've read the entire thread but can you post a schematic or photos of how you made the connections between the timer unit and the machine, and where you mounted the timer? Thanks.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:57 pm

Never mind, I've figured it out and have a unit on order. Thanks for posting this thread, it was very helpful.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:33 am

Sorry, I started drawing it out, but then I got confused by the definition of N.O. (normally open) vs N.C. (normally closed).
I connected my control board switch to N.O. and for a while was thinking that I had it wrong (despite testing)

So to clear up a little, based on my understanding (any EEs should feel free to do a smack-down here),
-N.O. should let no power flow, and the event should enable the circuit
-N.C. should let power flow, and the event should break the circuit

I will draw post a drawing later.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:41 am

Oh, and I didn't do any beautiful placement of the timer, it is just wired and sitting on my table behind the V2.
A later improvement will be to:
1) turn the wires out of the V2 into a 4 connection plug (with the 5th unused wire hidden)
2) turn the wires coming from the timer into a 4 connection receptacle
3) wrap all the wires so they don't look messy
4) mount the timer on the wall

Look forward to hearing how it comes out for you LDT!

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:00 pm

OK, hopefully this is useful to someone: http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq89 ... ection.jpg
Image

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:20 pm

My unit is back ordered for a few days, but I will keep you posted. It may be a few weeks before I tackle this project. Thanks for the wiring diagram.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by txrpls » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:15 pm

MonkeyK wrote:I just finished checking out the timer connection.

I unwrapped the vinyl and found a three wire female connector:
Black Grey Blue
Stuck parts of paper clips into each female recepticle and turned the timer switch to on

Then measured with my multimeter
AC went all wierd
Setting the multimeter to DC got me
Black-Blue 15v
Black-Grey 10V
Grey-Blue 5v
Weird, I kind of expected one pair to read 0

So then I turned the timer switch to "off" and measured again, just for fun
Black-Blue 15v
Black-Grey 10V
Grey-Blue 5v
So now I know why they keep the plug wrapped... Plus I'm really grateful for low voltage DC.

Anyway, I found a convenient source for 15v DC
I found some LED strips that are rated 9-14.8v. Do you think 15v would blow them? The only reason I haven't installed light is I didn't whant to have another item hanging out the machine along with the Timer. The WAF is not very high for more stuff plugged in to here kithen wall outlets.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:05 pm

I really doubt that 15v would blow the leds if they are rated to 14.8. What you might not like is that the timer connector power is always on. So if you use it, your LEDs will be always on.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by txrpls » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:09 pm

MonkeyK wrote:I really doubt that 15v would blow the leds if they are rated to 14.8. What you might not like is that the timer connector power is always on. So if you use it, your LEDs will be always on.
I think I will give it them a try. Always on is not a problem.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by humara » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:44 am

long time lurker. first time poster.
thanks so much for this post. have had my s1v2 for about 6 months now and have had only the one complaint the entire time.
$199 timer from la spas.

now i'm really looking forward to opening her up to "install" this timer.

one small question though, why is 15v going to one terminal and 10v going to the other on the board?

also, is about $54 the best price for it?

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:55 am

I am guessing that the middle wire is supposed to cary a data signal. Not sure what that entails, but it probably involves some voltage.

$54 is the best price that I have seen.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:00 am

BTW, the timer is working great. And the box itself looks nice. My only complaint is that it has a very bright blue LED to indicate that it is on. I may put some tape over it to dim/block it.
Functionally, I would look for a way to turn the 4 wires into a single plug so that the timer unit could easily be plugged or unplugged.

My install is not the most aesthetic one; I'm not great at figuring out how to make things look nice. I'd be very interested in seeing anyone's solutions for an attractive install or timer placement.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by humara » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:51 pm

MonkeyK wrote:BTW, the timer is working great. And the box itself looks nice. My only complaint is that it has a very bright blue LED to indicate that it is on. I may put some tape over it to dim/block it.
Functionally, I would look for a way to turn the 4 wires into a single plug so that the timer unit could easily be plugged or unplugged.

My install is not the most aesthetic one; I'm not great at figuring out how to make things look nice. I'd be very interested in seeing anyone's solutions for an attractive install or timer placement.
good to hear that it's working great. have one on order. thinking that i may as well also get the firmware update from chriscoffee while the machine is opened up. going to be tough living without the v2 for a couple of weeks though. ugh.

also, thinking I may also install some barista lights off of the same electrical source, and wire in an on/off toggle from radio shack while I am at it. have some extra ikea leds from another project.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:22 pm

As an FYI, getting the firmware upgrade from CCS "while it's opened up" is like comparing lancing a boil to open heart surgery. Pulling the covers so that you can connect a 3rd party timer is pretty trivial compared to removing the controller board. At least the folks I am aware of that have added timers did not have to access the controller board as part of the process.

BTW, there is no real need to be without the machine for two weeks if you do send the board in. They will reprogram the board and turn in around to you the same day, so it really depends on whether you are willing to use/pay for expedited shipping in both directions.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by Cu$hman » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:20 pm

Hello all,

New to the S1 forum and considering building your timer. While investigating I downloaded the following .pdf files that I thought might be useful to others.
Enforcer SA-027WQ-7day Timer.pdf
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 498 times
and
Enforcer SA-027WQ-7day Timer.pdf
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 389 times

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by humara » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:34 pm

chas wrote:As an FYI, getting the firmware upgrade from CCS "while it's opened up" is like comparing lancing a boil to open heart surgery. Pulling the covers so that you can connect a 3rd party timer is pretty trivial compared to removing the controller board. At least the folks I am aware of that have added timers did not have to access the controller board as part of the process.

BTW, there is no real need to be without the machine for two weeks if you do send the board in. They will reprogram the board and turn in around to you the same day, so it really depends on whether you are willing to use/pay for expedited shipping in both directions.
ha! good point. i remember getting the controller board out being easier than getting the side panels back on in perfect alignment. anyway, the timer arrived, so of course I had to rush in and start the install process. will update when I've made some progress

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by humara » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:07 am

It's alive. test fired an event with a 5 sec pulse. turned off with a 2 sec pulse. very exciting. fingers crossed that i'll wake up to a warm V2. Also wired in an ikea dioder on the same wires that are powering the timer. awesome! barista lights and a timer all in one open heart surgery. thinking i should post a pic when I get the wires wrapped up and cable tied, also need to wire in a hard switch for the barista lights.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:45 pm

If you have photos showing exactly where you connected all the wires, that would be very useful.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:27 pm

Cushman,

The two PDF files you uploaded appear to be the same. Did you goof and upload the same file twice or was there only supposed to be one copy of that file?
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:16 am

I have my timer; just haven't installed it yet. I'm curious about the connectors and type of wire you used. I was thinking of using four conductor wire with appropriate fittings to make a neat installation. Hopefully if you post photos you will show where you made the connections, type of wire and the connectors. Thanks.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:48 pm

Sorry to take so long to respond.
It is unlikely that I will get a chance to open my machine back to take any pictures in the near future. I find that this kind of work requires that I have the house to myself for a while. My mother-in-law has moved in indefinitely and her state of mind puts any project involving "parts" at risk.

Regarding the wire, you are dealing with a minimal amount of power. You can use just about the narrowest gauge wire you can find. I used 22awg. To plug into the Vivalidi timer connector, you will need something stiffer. Solid wire would probably work. I happened to have an old circuit board (that I was keeping for no good reason) which had a three pin post where the outside pins also happened to match the timer connector.
A nice improvement would be to find a 4 pin connector (something like this http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-st ... .10/1.html) and attach the four wires for the espresso machine to one side and the four wires for the timer to the other side. This would make it easy to unplug the timer.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:31 am

Today I discovered one drawback to the Seco Larm 7 day timer. Despite all it's fancy timer capabilities, it does not track DST!

Oh well, I still love having it.
Last edited by MonkeyK on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:05 am

Join the crowd. I don't believe the code in the optional timer for the V2 was ever updated for the new DST dates and the DST switch-over in the integrated version of the Dream is currently all hosed up.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:05 am

MonkeyK:

I still have not installed my timer, but I have a question. When I install the timer like you have should I flip the switch inside the machine indicating a timer is installed or do you only do that with the Vivaldi timer?

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by chas » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:53 am

No, don't flip the switch to "ON" unless you are installing the LaSpaziale timer.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by LDT » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:52 pm

Thanks Chas for the response! BTW You deserve some praise for the great job you have been doing de-bugging the Dream machine. :grin:
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by KatKat » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:14 pm

I am considering adding the timer alternative... Can somebody clarify the location of the "control board cable" and how to get to it? If I end up doing it, I will be happy to take pictures and help others do it.
Last edited by KatKat on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by KatKat » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:31 pm

[edit] finally, I found this post:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=261&p=13863&hilit=timer#p1863

Not sure how I missed it before. I have all the info I need to install the timer. Now I need some time...
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by KatKat » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:39 am

Ordered the SACO-LARM timer from Amazon. Great price - $39, free shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00997 ... UTF8&psc=1
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:48 pm

Nice find!

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by slovan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:12 pm

I wish I wasn't so inept when it comes to electrical and soldering. Unfortunately I had to buy the La Spaz timer instead. I envy you guys who can DIY your own timers!
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Wed May 01, 2013 1:39 am

KatKat and others, I just ordered some 4 pin connectors on eBay. I'll be getting 5 pairs, but only need one. So if anyone wants one, message me and I'll mail one to you after I get them.

These are what I ordered:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5Set-4-PIN-RGB- ... ef&vxp=mtr

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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by KatKat » Fri May 10, 2013 10:43 pm

Project done, everything seems to be working. This SECO-LARM timer is an amazing find. Simple, elegant solution.
I will report back soon with confirmed results and some details.
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Re: alternative to Spaziale timer (HOW TO SUMMARY)

Post by KatKat » Sun May 12, 2013 11:13 am

Project summary:

(1) I bought the SECO-LARM SA-027WQ 7-Day Timer Module timer - $40 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00997 ... UTF8&psc=1
(2) I used these instructions (credit: JonW) - viewtopic.php?f=57&t=261&p=13863&hilit=timer#p1863 to take the machine apart
(3) I used the diagram from MonkeyK's post - http://www.s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... mer#p20760 - color code was different for my V2 timer connector and also check the polarity with a multimeter
(4) I used a thermostat (5-wire) cable and routed it into the machine right next to the power cable. I took 2 wires and plugged them directly into the V2 timer connector. The thermostat cable has the right gauge to make a very good contact. I used a plastic strip and an electric tape to secure everything. Yes, it would have been a little nicer if I had a male 4 pin plug that fits the V2 timer connector...
(5) For the V2 board soldering, I used a pair of thin wires (solid core phone cable), soldered them to the V2 board on one side and then soldered them to 2 wires from the thermostat cables.
All the wires are packed nicely inside the protective wrap I removed from the V2 timer connector and tucked in the same place the V2 timer connector was originally located.


Comments:
The SECO-LARM timer is a little bigger than I expected. It is about 4.5"x3.5". Not a show-stopper though.
The timer blue LED is WAY too bright. It is hard to look at this thing and set the time. I used an electric tape to cover it.
The timer box has a wide opening on the bottom to connect the cable to it. It is way too wide and just bad cable management. I drilled a hole on the right side and put a grommet I had at home (from Radio Shack). See pictures.

Todo: cut the cable I used for the SECO-LARM timer and add some connector, so that the timer could be detached. Also, use a more flexible cable from the timer to the connector on the machine side. Suggestions are welcome.

MANY thanks to MonkeyK and the other contributors. This is GREAT.
Attachments
p3.jpg
p3.jpg (7.43 KiB) Viewed 18865 times
p2.jpg
p2.jpg (7.39 KiB) Viewed 18865 times
p1.jpg
p1.jpg (4.73 KiB) Viewed 18866 times
Last edited by KatKat on Tue May 14, 2013 9:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Iron Man

LaSpaziale S1 Mini Vivaldi II with SA-027WQ timer hack
B. Vario

MonkeyK
Macchiatto
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by MonkeyK » Sun May 12, 2013 10:47 pm

Nice install! I really like the look of the single cord coming out of the side.

KatKat
Macchiatto
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:32 pm

Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by KatKat » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:49 pm

The timer has worked flawlessly for the last month or so. This is a huge upgrade for me! Highly recommended!
The Iron Man

LaSpaziale S1 Mini Vivaldi II with SA-027WQ timer hack
B. Vario

YseanY
Freeze Dried
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: alternative to Spaziale timer

Post by YseanY » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:13 pm

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but are there any pre-made relays available to act as the "electronic finger"? I have my eye on the Belkin WeMo timer and would love to have it hooked up to the La Spaziale for times when I want to turn on my machine remotely to have it ready when I get home!

Thanks!

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