Another pump/motor failure

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DaveS

Another pump/motor failure

Post by DaveS » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:51 pm

My S1 is exactly 2 years old this month and decided to give me a Christmas present. A few days ago it started to have a low freqency grinding noise when the group was operational. I called Chris' and repair suggested I take off the pump and take a look, as well as see if the motor spinning alone was giving the noise. The noise was still present, so like the other thread on this topic, I guess I'll have to pull/replace the motor. The inside of the motor near the shaft was just filled with a black gritty mess. The other thing I noticed is that something is also leaking down from the motor/pump onto the mounting brackets. You can barely see it in the bottom of the picture below.

I really don't know much about motors, but I can still turn the shaft, although it is not very smooth. I assume the water is leaking through the seal in the pump, so both either need fixed or replaced? From what I've seen, the pump and motor will cost $300 to replace and it doesn't look like an easy job to replace the motor.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by MDL » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:57 pm

I am wondering if we should pull our pumps off every year to check for leaks? It would be better than having this kind of problem...My VII was purchased from Chris the first week of April 2007 so I'm thinking that I should take a look.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by Niko » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:05 pm

It's very easy to pull off the pump for a quick look but I wouldn't do it unless you hear something or it's acting funny. I did pull mine off the VII several months ago but that was a chattering valve which got replaced.
Dave's is one of those extremely rare cases. I think the motor is over $300 to replace and the pump is in the 100-something dollar range. I haven't priced these things lately but they're not cheap and it adds up. I certainly hope you don't have top change that motor because it is a pain in the glutes to dismantle most of the machine to get to it.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:12 pm

It looks like you could possibly remove the front motor cover with the motor still in place. If so changing the bearing would be fairly straight forward & a cheap fix compared to a new $300 motor. Seems like the pump seal could be replaced also. I may pop my pump off tomorrow & have a look.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:57 pm

Since I want to make coffee in the morning I went ahead & pulled the pump tonight. As you can see from my pics mine has already started to weep/corrode after a little less then one year. My machine goes out of warranty 1/02/09 so I'll be on the phone Monday to see about getting the pump replaced. All you can see from the outside is the bushing the pump shaft rides in. If there is a seal its internal & you would have to remove the threaded cover under the label to access it.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by Niko » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:07 am

John,
What are these spots?
Does the pump turn by hand easily?
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La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

La Spaz S1 S5 Steam Arm w/ progressive preinfusion, Compak K3 Touch Doserless, Espro flat tamp
Hottop P, Behmor, iRoast2 and Gene Cafe

DaveS

Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by DaveS » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:57 am

Thanks for the replies. I'll see if I can pull the front of the motor off..

Do we think this can be casued by hard water scaling buildup?

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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by Niko » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:34 am

yeah, that's what I was wondering (hard water) - looked like that in John's pic after the color was corrected.
La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

La Spaz S1 S5 Steam Arm w/ progressive preinfusion, Compak K3 Touch Doserless, Espro flat tamp
Hottop P, Behmor, iRoast2 and Gene Cafe

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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:16 pm

Niko wrote:John,
What are these spots?
Does the pump turn by hand easily?
The pump turns fine by hand. The spots are corrosion from leaking water just as you have corrosion in the front motor cover (water on aluminium). The problem is that the pumps are leaking prematurely causing corrosion & I seriously doubt my 80ppm water is the cause.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:18 pm

Niko wrote:yeah, that's what I was wondering (hard water) - looked like that in John's pic after the color was corrected.
Pull off your pumps & have a look if you think my water is the issue.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by Niko » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:22 pm

After a good night's sleep, I've decided that it's not your water :lol:
...all kidding aside, there's no way hard water alone can damage a pump unless there's a leak. If there's a leak, even soft water can corrode and cause damage.
I did pull my pump off just a couple of months ago and it was clean as a whistle. I will open again next year 8)
La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

La Spaz S1 S5 Steam Arm w/ progressive preinfusion, Compak K3 Touch Doserless, Espro flat tamp
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:42 pm

Before putting the machine back together this morning I cleaned up all the corrosion with a scuff pad, opened up the "drain hole" in the motor cover & liberally coated the bearing surface with waterproof hi temp grease. I also lightly coated the pump face & the interior of the motor cover. This should prevent any further corrosion, keep moisture away from the bearing & allow any water that leaks into the area to drain out.

In order to drill out the hole I tipped the machine back against the wall, removed the screw from the lower motor mount & came in at a slight angle with a 1/4" drill bit while propping up the motor slightly. I used an acid brush to coat the area with grease after vacuuming out the metal chips.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by chas » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:54 pm

I am about to complete repairs and reassemble my V2. Here's what I found. First the good news. The motor and pump are still pristine after 25months. A number of your have pulled off your rotary pumps for inspection and I don't remember any of you mentioning that you had to pull the motor to get at the pump. In my case the collar that holds the pump and motor together is held on by a Phillips screw which was pointing up. Between all the wires in the way and not having a screwdriver with a shaft long enough, I could not get to it. Therefore, I had to disconnect both water lines from the pump, remove the bolts holding in the pump from the bottom side of the chassis, and then slide the pump and motor out the back. Sounds like a pain but it probably only took 5-10 minutes. When I put it back in I plan to rotate that collar 180 degrees. Then I should be able to remove the screw holding the collar on easily through one of the holes in the bottom of the chassis for future inspections.

Before pulling the pump I had checked the capacitor on top of the pump and thought it tightly connected. However, when I pulled the pump out, the bolt was very loose and the cap was flopping around. I suppose it had just been wedged between wires and other components making me think it was tight. So I am guessing that this was responsible for the slight rattling noise that had developed in the last few months.
PristineMotor-Pump.jpg
Pristine Pump and Motor - 25month old V2
PristineMotor-Pump.jpg (78.95 KiB) Viewed 14245 times
I did find two parts I need to replace. The dripping steam wand was due to a smashed "O" ring. IN the photo below you can see that the "O" ring is still round on one side but smashed flat on the other.

About 6 months back, I smelled a burnt insulation smell coming out of my V2 and traced it to the large black power wire connecting to one side of the steam boiler heater element. Not only was the insulation melted but the wire looked very brittle just adjacent to the spade terminal. The black plastic cover that snaps over this fitting was also a little "melty" looking. I cut off the bad part of this short wire and put a new crimp connector on.

This time that wire had burnt again in the exact same spot as you can see in the photo below. Since installing the new crimp connector last summer I purchased a bag of better grade crimp connectors, so I am about to make a new jumper wire with a new piece of wire and new crimp connectors on each end. We'll see if this creates a more reliable and long-term fix.
Bad-Parts.jpg
Burnt wire and smashed "O" ring
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Other than those things all looked fine. I just used compressed air and a sponge to do some minor cleanup.
Chas
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:11 pm

I seriously doubt your crimps are the issue with that wire melting, especially now that it has happened twice. I just checked the same wire on my machine & it looks like new after 1year. If the crimp wasn't up to the job we'd all be having problems. Possibly there is a problem with your element? Solder the crimps on your new wire & see if the wire still melts.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:22 am

CC is sending out a replacement pump today, gotta love em! Since I waterproofed the bearing area I'm not going to change out the pump right away but when I do I will remove the threaded cover & post some pics of the internals. It will be interesting to see what is in there for a seal & also I'd like to see how much scale, if any, builds up in there.

Dave - Post some pics when you get the motor cover off & post the bearing info if you are able to salvage the cover.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by chas » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:37 pm

JohnB wrote:I seriously doubt your crimps are the issue with that wire melting, especially now that it has happened twice. I just checked the same wire on my machine & it looks like new after 1year. If the crimp wasn't up to the job we'd all be having problems. Possibly there is a problem with your element? Solder the crimps on your new wire & see if the wire still melts.
I tinned the ends this time before crimping. We'll see if that helps.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by BobG » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:09 am

My S1 is 4.5 years old and the pump and motor just failed for the first time. After reading all of your posts, I decided I didn't want to spend the time to do the repair. I took my machine to Pierre Espresso Repair as he used to be co-located with the LaSpaziale office in Seattle. I tried calling the local office in Seattle, but the phone was picked up by their East Coast office (the only US office now)...but they gave me Pierre's number as he specializes in LaSpaziale repair. Pierre now rents an office inside a coffee roasting facility in Seattle (Caffee Umbria).

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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:07 am

JohnB wrote:CC is sending out a replacement pump today, gotta love em! Since I waterproofed the bearing area I'm not going to change out the pump right away but when I do I will remove the threaded cover & post some pics of the internals. It will be interesting to see what is in there for a seal & also I'd like to see how much scale, if any, builds up in there.

As I mention above I didn't install the new pump last December as I wanted to see how the larger drain hole & grease coating would deal with the minor pump leakage. I had planned to pull the pump & check it after a few months but since I never saw anything coming out of the drain hole I didn't bother. Finally pulled the pump yesterday after 9 months of use & there was absolutely no sign of further leakage. Everything looked just like the day I put it back together 9 months ago so the old pump stays in use. No idea why the pump stopped leaking but at least I have a new spare when it finally does quit.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by mgannon » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:19 pm

I replaced my pump and motor about a year ago. Since I've got my machine completely torn down right now, I suppose I might as well pull the new pump off and make sure everything still looks good.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by mgannon » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Whew. All clean & dry.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by simonfell » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:14 pm

chas wrote:...
About 6 months back, I smelled a burnt insulation smell coming out of my V2 and traced it to the large black power wire connecting to one side of the steam boiler heater element. Not only was the insulation melted but the wire looked very brittle just adjacent to the spade terminal. The black plastic cover that snaps over this fitting was also a little "melty" looking. I cut off the bad part of this short wire and put a new crimp connector on.
I had the exact same piece of wire fail in the same way on my S1 about 6 months ago. On mine the wire to crimp connection was tight but the crimp was fairly loose on the spade it was connected too.

seand

Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by seand » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:47 pm

I've also experienced the failure in this thread... in case it is useful to anyone...

I got my S1 in late 2006. I had increasing motor noise until it turned into a grinding type of noise. By April, 2008 my motor looked exactly like the picture above when I took it apart. $400 later it was good as new. Recently it started increasing in noise, so I took it apart this weekend. Caught early, the material looked almost like salt... transparent to white crystaline, not at all the grimey sludge from my first experience. It hadn't made its way to the bearings on the motor, so it looks like just a new rotary pump is necessary. I reassembled the machine while waiting for the new part, and curiously... with only the gunk cleaned out the noise is back to normal.

I'm operating on softened water on a system dedicated to the machine, no hard mixed back in, less than 20ppm. The first pump lasted maybe a year to the point where the new one lasted two years, but we're talking about a pump that pumped maybe 100 gallons over its life.

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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 10:42 am

Is it necessary to use "food grade" waterproof high temp grease ???

If so any suggestions / sources? If not needed any suggestions for regular high temp waterproof grease?

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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Fri May 04, 2012 10:55 am

No, any good high temp grease will do the job if you are just coating the inside of the motor housing where the pump attaches.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 11:54 am

If the (apparent) motor/pump noise diminishes when I squeeze the plastic sides of the S1; what might this mean?

Thanx
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 11:55 am

JohnB wrote:No, any good high temp grease will do the job if you are just coating the inside of the motor housing where the pump attaches.

Thanks
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by JohnB » Fri May 04, 2012 12:17 pm

Something is loose or touching the frame rails. What kind of noise are you getting?
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 1:15 pm

I will try to upload video with the precise sound.

Am working on it now.
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Re: Another pump/motor failure

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 1:30 pm

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=800776


877 kb movie


Need to sleep a few hours. Late here in Bangkok.

Thanks again.
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