Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

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Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:50 pm

My plumbed S1V1 does not open the group valve and no water comes out. The flowmeter alarm (light 14-15-16) comes on when pressing single cup, and (17-18-19) when pressing the double shot.

It warms up normally and when ready, there is no action when pressing the shot buttons. NOTHING, not even the slightest click form the electrovalve nor the relay in the controlbox, only the flowmeter alarm.

I have checked the following:

Removed and cleaned flowmeter, it was clean and spinning nicely. I replaced the small sensor on the flowmeter plug to see if that changed anything, no no luck.
I removed the three-way valve on the grouphead, and ensured that water was getting to the group, and it does.
I checked wiring and connections.
I removed the controlbox, and board. Everything looks perfect, no signs of any components having overheated, or any connectors, which was not connected.

It bothers me, that there is no sound from the activation of the grouphead electro valve, and I measured the the current coming to the Lucifer coil on the group valve, when activation the shot button, but there is no current.

The waterpump seem to work normally, and the boiler delivers steam and water perfectly. (however the pressure gauge shows 1,8 bar when the boiler thermostats stops heating, which seems too high?)

The Flowmeter alarm is not supposed to be a blocking alarm, but it certainly seems to block my V1,

I have a S1 Rossini, and some parts are interchangeable, which is helpful for diagnostics.

The machine is new to me, and I cant wait to get it up and running. I love the sound of the rotary pump, and I am looking forward to the advantages of a dual boiler machine.

However for now the machine is on the test bench, and has not brewed me a single cup yet.

Hope someone has some advice that can help me along, I really don't know what to check next?

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:00 am

Before taking this discussion any further I want to clarify a couple of things.

1) Is it true that all steam boiler functions work fine - both steam and hot water (ignoring the 1.8bar part for now)?
2) Is it also true that when you press the 1C or 2C button that the group solenoid does not close AND the pump does not run?
3) You indicate that the Flow Meter alarm is blocking. Blocking means that the machine turns itself Off. Is this what is happening? I have never seen a standard flow meter alarm result in an S1 powering off.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Hi Chas,

Thanks for following up on my post. I love this forum, and people like yourself, who take the time to respond to other peoples problems.

To clarify your questions:

1) Is it true that all steam boiler functions work fine - both steam and hot water (ignoring the 1.8bar part for now)?
YES, BOTH STEAM AND HOT WATER TAP WORKS NORMALLY, the rotary pump working fine as well.

2) Is it also true that when you press the 1C or 2C button that the group solenoid does not close AND the pump does not run?
YES, NO SOUND FROM THE SOLENOID, NOR THE SLIGHTEST CLICK FROM THE CONTROLBOARD. MOTOR DOES NOT RUN AND THERE IS NOT A DROP OF WATER FROM THE GROUP. I get the alarm lights blink once, and then nothing. IT IS AS IF THERE IS AN ELECTRONIC OVERIDE DISABELING THE SOLENOID?

3) You indicate that the Flow Meter alarm is blocking. Blocking means that the machine turns itself Off. Is this what is happening? I have never seen a standard flow meter alarm result in an S1 powering off.
THE MACHINE DOES NOT TURN ITSELF OFF. I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THE TERM BLOCKING FOR NOT DELIVERING WATER! IT STAYS ON AND KEEPS DELIVERING STEAM AND HOT WATER. IT ALARMS EVERY TIME I PRESS THE 1C and 2C buttons.

As I mentioned the machine is new to me. IT is a S1V1, but it seems to have some updates done to it. It has the newer type of controlboard box, with the extra cable for the timer. It has the plastic cover protecting the boiler valve. From what I can tell it only needs a double pressure gauge to be an S1VII !

The model number is 254773, and it is a European version 220V, bought in Spain.

Is it possible that the previous owner has done a half upgrade, and missed out on programming something on the board, or a dipswitch or something?

I feel like powering the group selenoid directly to check if it works, but have not done so yet. I know it is not being powered from the board, when i press c1/c2.

Thanks, again Chas.

Please, let me know if any further info or pictures can be helpful.

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:29 pm

Since you have an upgraded controller board, does that mean that it is in a plastic box with two switches on top - one for 15/20A mode* and one marked "On/Off" that enables/disables the timer? If so, check that the timer switch is not set in the enable mode since it sounds like you do not have the timer. If this switch is on the wrong position when you do not have the timer installed, it produces a strange set of problems, exactly as you are describing.

When Chris Coffee Service in the US first started selling the V2s they would test them with and without the timers to be sure both worked even if the customer was not purchasing the machine with the timer. Sometimes they would test the machine with the timer and then forget to flip the switch back to the Off position. We had several folks with this problem over a short period of time discuss it here and we finally figured out what was going on.

It was a tough one to figure out since the symptoms do not seem at all logically related to the lack of a timer.

* Since you have a 220V machine this 15/20A switch may not exist since it makes no sense except for 110V machines, but you should have the timer switch.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:45 pm

I rediscovered this on the FAQ link above. Sound familiar? :mrgreen:

BTW: I need to update this FAQ with another note. As I recall, the state of the timer ON/OFF switch is only read on power up. So after flipping the switch to Off, unplug the machine for 30 seconds, then plug back in and profit! Enjoy your first cup of espresso on me and thanks for mentioning the upgrade to the new controller board or this never would have occurred to me.

FAQ:
When I press the two cup button, lights 17 18 and 19 flash once and then back to the current temp light or when I press the one cup button lights 14, 15, and 16 flash once and then back to the current temp light. The pump never turns on.

These are the classic symptoms for those VII or VII Mini users that do not have the optional timer but have the timer enable switch set to ON on top of the black controller box. This switch MUST be set in the OFF position if you don't have a timer otherwise you will get the exact symptoms noted above.

To access this switch you need to remove the top cup warmer tray. This is done by removing a single recessed screw in the front center of tray. Once the tray is removed, look inside the machine for two switches on top of a black box. This is on the right side when facing the front of the machine. One switch is marked 15/20 and is set to whether you are running in 15A or 20A mode. The other is labeled On/Off. If you do NOT have a timer this switch MUST be set to OFF!
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:21 pm

One more thing to note: Some later model V1s made after the introduction of the V2 use the same controller board. You apparently either have one of these models or your machine has had its controller board replaced. This newer controller board actually supports V1 and V2 modes. Normally the V1 models are put into V1 mode at the factory which makes the temperature increments on the front panel 5C apart and disables preinfusion and the more granular temperature offset control available in V2 mode.

If your controller board is in V1 mode you can switch it into V2 mode and get all the V2 features. The first thing to do is see which mode your machine is in now. This is displayed by which lights blink when the machine is plugged in. You can kill two birds with one stone after you fix the Timer On/Off switch issue since you have to unplug the machine and plug it back in again as the final step for fixing that problem.

From the V2 User's Manual:
4.9 V1/VII Mode Switch
The VII Controller board actually has a backward compatible mode that emulates the
functionality of the original VI. None of the advanced features of the VII are available
when the controller is in VI mode. If you don’t seem to be able to access the VII
features, your machine might have inadvertently gotten switched to VI mode. If in doubt
as to which mode you are in, just unplug the VII and then plug back in to see if the three
yellow or three green lamps blink once. Yellow = VII mode and Green = VI mode.
With the VII in Standby mode (ON/STBY blinking green), press and hold the Hot Water
button for at least 10 seconds. If three yellow lights blink once your machine is now in
VII mode. If three green lights blink once the machine is now in VI mode. Each time
you hold in the Hot Water button for 10 seconds while in Standby (ON/STBY blinking
green), the mode toggles.
Note that if you change from VII mode and then back again all the V2 specific settings
are lost and must be reset.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:28 pm

Wau, that sounds like a very good tip.

It is a bit late in Spain, but I had to get out of bed to check this out.

Yes, the machine does indeed hade the infamous blackbox with the switches. mine has a different marking. switch 1 is labeled eco/full and switch 2 is labled On/off. My machine was set to full and on.

I have switches the 2.nd switch to off, which I resume relates to the none existing timer.

the boiler is heating and I cant wait to push C1,

thank you for the tip, i will be back soon with a progress report. :grin:

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:33 pm

Yes Full and Off are the two settings you need and you should be good to go. You are probably almost ready to press the 1c or 2c buttons now. Don't stay up all night drinking espressos! It will work.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:53 pm

:cheers: :bounce: :grin:

Thanks Chas,

You are my new hero.

problem is resolved, Fantastico.

I switched the switch to off, and tested without unplugging and nothing. After unplugging it for 30 seks, just as described it works. absolutely fantastic.

I searched this forum a lot without finding your quoted FAQs, thanks for digging them out, and your spot on diagnostics.

The machine needs some further TLC before im ready to go for a shot, but it looks like my faithfull S1Rossini is about to retire.

My machine is apparently set to V1 mode, so it looks like i have some programming to do.

Also I have to look into the high pressure on the boiler side.





Yo

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:10 pm

Wauu, just had my first preinfused shot. Naturally, I could not resist. So, i reset it to V2 mode and so far so good. Ahhh, the sweet sounding rotary pump and the steam boiler, I'm in Spaziale heaven :smile: Thanks for getting me there, I was pulling my hair for a few days.

Spanish support on these machines is pretty much none existing.

What a scoop, I gotan upgraded V1, when I thought I was buying a V1. Not bad for 200 euros :grin:

Only thing missing is the double presure gauge. That will be a project for the near future.

Thanks for providing this wonderful forum and your prompt support Chas.

It makes owning a S1 a lot more fun.

Goodnight
Last edited by cafesolo on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 pm

The universal solution for the 1.8 bars on the steam boiler has been to replace the temperature sensor. They actually use a new design now which is improved.

Refresh my memory on the Rossini. It looks like the S1 on the outside but inside it is a single boiler HX machine. Is this correct? I knew at one time but now I am not sure.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:31 pm

I just checked out the Rossini in the S1 parts catalog located on the page linked above as VII/VII Mini Site. I guess it's not even an HX machine. It just looks like they tapped out of the top of the group boiler for steam and the side of the group boiler for hot water. Given the small size of the group boiler to have to do triple duty like that must have made for wimpy steam and hot water performance!
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:59 pm

Yes, thats right, the Rossini does not have what the Vivaldi has under the hood. Im sorry I w slow in getting back to you, I woke up my son with my past midnight coffee grinding. :-?

I will study this forum throughly for mods and updates and get familiar with the new machine

Have a nice evening over there Chas, and thanks a million for your help.

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm

Moving on to the next task,

If it is the temp sensor causing the high presure, could i not be due to calcium on the probe? Also, how can i identify if I have a new or old type of sensor.

It seems worth while to replace the sensor, if you think that is causing the high presure in the boiler.

I will go through the whole machine and descale everything and replace all seals and o-rings.

I get my s1 parts from a Supplier in Barcelona, so I will me making a list.

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:28 am

The original sensor apparatus is in two parts. The part that actually bolts into the top of the steam boiler is just a sealed hollow tube. The temperature sensor is a small silver cylinder with two wire leads. This cylinder to pushed down to the bottom of the hollow tube and then a small blob of silicon rubber is placed in the end of the tube to prevent moisture from getting into the tube. Looking for that silicon blob is the easiest way to determine that you have the old style sensor.

The new sensor is just a one piece sensor that replaces tube. If you need to replace an old style sensor with a new one, first you pull the old sensor out of the tube and then unscrew the bolt on top of the hollow tube so you can pull it out. The new sensor then bolts right down in the same hole.

You can also see what the new part looks like in the LaSpaziale Parts Manual as part # 8919. Here is what the old sensor looks like. If you look at photo 5 on this web page you can see the old style sensor installed on an actual S1. It is the device where the sensor wires are covered by two orange sleeves held in place with a white nylon cable tie. These cover the connectors where the sensor wires connect to the S1's wire harness going to the controller board. If you look just above the brass nut and below the orange wire sleeves you can just make out the blob of clear silicon adhesive in the top of the sensor tube.

Based on the link above from the Chris Coffee website it appears that both the old and the new sensor types are still available. If you have type one then it is definitely easier to replace it with the same type. The main difference is that the V2 style sensors are more accurate but that may not matter so much on the steam boiler. If the sensor is good for +-2C vs +-1C that matters on the group boiler, not so much for steam. But if you decide you need to change out the sensor and you currently have the old style you probably have the option to stick with it or get the new one. If you decide to change the sensor with either type you will need to cut that one white nylon cable tie and slide back the two orange sleeves so that you can unplug the old sensor since the sensor's connectors are currently hiding inside those orange sleeves.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:40 am

BTW: If you look at the back of the group boiler in that photo 5 I provided the link to in the previous post, you will see the temperature sensor coming out of the back of the group boiler. It is identical to the sensor used on the steam boiler. If this one is the old type and you plan to run the machine in V2 mode, I'd highly recommend replacing it with the new type even if you choose not to upgrade the one on the steam boiler. Of course depending on the actual age of your machine you MIGHT already have the new style sensors.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:49 pm

Thanks,

My machine has the new type on the boiler, which currently runs high 1.8 bar. The group boiler has the old type sensor. The silicone blob it actually missing and the sensor inside the tube moves freely in and out, when i pull the cable.

I will see if the sensors are available locally, sound sensible to replace the group sensor aswell.

I thought of swapping the sensors to check it the boiler pressure would drop, but that won't work with the two different types.



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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:40 pm

chas wrote:The universal solution for the 1.8 bars on the steam boiler has been to replace the temperature sensor. They actually use a new design now which is improved.
I followed Chas advise and replaced my temperature sensor on the Boiler, and also on the group head, now that I was at it.

I opened up the boiler, and gave everything a good descaling, and all is now as good as new.

However, it did not change the high pressure I´m getting in the boiler. Stil the same 1,8-1,9 Bar. Everything is working normally, but with too high pressure, with the gauge needle way up in the red.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Turn off the water supply, run the machine for a few seconds until you can hear the pump starving for water, shut the machine off and let it cool all the way down. Is the steam pressure gauge needle exactly on 0 bar or is it perhaps sitting about 0.5 bar?

The only other cause for "high" S1 steam pressure I have seen, other than due to a faulty temp sensor, is a pressure gauge that doesn't go to zero when the pressure is zero. This is usually due to the entire machine receiving a big jolt during shipment. I've ruined two pressure gauges like this myself by dropping them on the floor.

The gauges usually still work OK but the zero point is off. If your pressure gauge zero point is really 0.5 bar and it reads 1.8 bar when the boiler is up to temperature, you really are running at 1.3 bar. I recall that you said you are thinking about replacing your current single manometer with a dual manometer so you won't be out any more money that you would have been from buying a new dual guage if this is the problem. :lol:
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:21 pm

Hi Chas,

You are so fast on that keyboard of yours. Thanks, ahhhhhrrrr, don´t know what to say, I should have thought of that right away. The machine did get a bump durring shipping from Barcelona, and the pressure dial is off, and does not go to zero but sits somewhere up around .6 bar.

I have been a bit too quick, I should have taken note of that to begin with.

However, I now have a wonderfully clean boiler with new gaskets, and two good temperature sensors. No harm done.

I suppose I will look for a double gauge now, and do the final upgrade towards becoming a VII owner :-))

By the way, I read an old post of yours, where you mention your "sponge and temp sensor in a grouphandle" to check temp. I will try to replicate that, it sounds like a good way to check the brew temp.

I also posted this as a new subject, but I will remove that again.

Once again, your help is extremely appreciated.

Abrazos a todos

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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by chas » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:28 pm

You must have a local LaSpaziale supplier to be able to get parts so fast. Glad you are finally all set with a fully working, rebuilt machine. You should be good for several years now.
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Re: Flowmeter alarm, no water, no sound

Post by cafesolo » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:37 am

Yes, I was lucky with a fast delivery from maniland spain overnight to Mallorca.

I am so happy with the machine, i love the built quality and easy of service.

Today I will pick up some freshly roasted beans and start finetuning.

I am considering adding a double pressure gauge. I saw a post where someone added a gauge off the grouphead, by the preinfusion screw, thus getting the actual presssure in the group when brewing. Do you know if there are any disadvantages to this? To me it seems more usefull than the normal pressure messuring point by the pump.

Sun is shining on Mallorca, so it will be a good day, thanks for your support.

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