motor/pump noise

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simonfell
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motor/pump noise

Post by simonfell » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:02 pm

Hi,

My S1 is 4-5 years old, I've noticed recently that the motor/pump noise is quite louder than it used to be, same type of noise, just louder. Is this something i should be worried about, i see there's a few posts on failed pumps/motors. Anything in particular i should take a look at ?

Thanks
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by chas » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:06 pm

You probably need to pull the pump so you can inspect the area between the pump and the motor. This sounds an awful lot like the problem covered with photos in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=986&p=14604&hilit=motor#p14604.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by simonfell » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:36 pm

Thanks, yes, it unfortuantly looks very similar, not a pretty sight.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by chas » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:45 pm

JohnB can probably give you some insights into things you can do to see if you can recover the motor and only have to buy a pump. It starts to get pricey if you have to replace both.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:54 pm

If the motor is noisy when you run it with the pump removed you will need to replace the bearing in the front cover. The bearing is cheap & readily available.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by simonfell » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:26 pm

Thanks, i can tell by turning it by hand that the bearing is shot. I got the motor casing apart and the bearing is in rough shape, time to track down a new one. (and to order a new pump).

Cheers
Simon

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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by Endo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:38 pm

"Another on bites the dust".

La Spaziale should be packing these bearings with waterproof gease and drilling the housing at BDC to let water drain out.

Also, since this happens SO often it seems, it should be part of the maintenance manual to inspect it once a year. Essential preventive maintenance to save you $$$ down the road!

Makes me wonder what that Alex Duettos will look like after 2 years with the pump mounted on top of the motor! :shock: :!:
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:23 pm

Endo wrote: La Spaziale should be packing these bearings with waterproof gease and drilling the housing at BDC to let water drain out.

Also, since this happens SO often it seems, it should be part of the maintenance manual to inspect it once a year. Essential preventive maintenance to save you $$$ down the road!
H'mm, both ideas sound very familiar. Have you been rereading my old posts again?? :roll:
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by Endo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:12 pm

Nope. Just common sense.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:16 am

Endo wrote:Nope. Just common sense.
Right. The factory does drill a hole at bdc but water does not drain out there. Instead it gets clogged with all that corrosion you see in the pics. The fix is to open up the small factory hole & coat the entire tunnel with waterproof grease as I detailed in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=986#p11566
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by Endo » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:14 pm

Good photos and a good fix. Explains a lot.

Typically when I design a bearing housing I try to put the drain hole at the lowest point. (Simply put, you get corrosion wherever the water stagnates). In this pump arangement I assume it was not clear if that was on the motor side or pump side so they put the hole in the middle?

Just for personal interest (not for coffee reasons), what was the size of the factory standard hole before you bored it out to 1/4"?

Any idea what they do on the Speedster?
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:07 pm

Endo wrote: Just for personal interest (not for coffee reasons), what was the size of the factory standard hole before you bored it out to 1/4"?
Any idea what they do on the Speedster?
The stock hole was closer to 3/16' if I remember correctly. Here's a photo of the Speedster motor/pump assy:
motor assy.JPG
motor assy.JPG (114.73 KiB) Viewed 18769 times
You can see 2 of the 6 drain/vent holes just behind the pump mounting clamp. There is also a metal shield in front of the motor bearing to help shield it from moisture/corrosion. That larger clamp closer to the motor cover is part of the front rubber mount assy. The motor is isolated from the mounting cradle front & rear to dampen vibes and noise. Pressure is adjusted by turning the slotted screw on the side of the pump. It takes 10-12 seconds to change the group pressure & that includes removing the screwdriver from the drawer & putting it back!!
pump bearing and seal.JPG
pump bearing and seal.JPG (49.75 KiB) Viewed 18769 times
Here you can see the replaceable bearing/seal at the rear of the pump.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by simonfell » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:17 pm

simonfell wrote:Thanks, i can tell by turning it by hand that the bearing is shot. I got the motor casing apart and the bearing is in rough shape, time to track down a new one. (and to order a new pump).
I had a hell of a time getting the bearing off the sleeve it was on, it took what seemed like forever, but i eventually managed to get it off, and get the sleeve + new bearing back on the motor, and the new pump fitted, the bearing only cost a few bucks, so that's a big improvement over 170 for a complete new motor. Everything seems to be fine so far.

Hopefully someone at CC and/or La Spaz is looking into this in more detail because it seems to be a fairly common failure.

Cheers
Simon

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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by Mr.Ken » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:07 pm

Hi gang,

I have joined the Corroded Bearing Club. Removing the pump confirmed the motor is the source of my noise. There is a faintly "metal-on-metal" tone to the motor shaft as it coasts to a stop.

Anyone care to share a bearing part number / source? The corrosion makes the number on mine illegible.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by Endo » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:57 pm

This happens SO often it seems. They should as a minimum add a "preventive maintenance" note in the owners manual.

I would be even better if Chris would convince LS to FIX the problem by adding more (and bigger) holes, as well as a bearing cover. These types of things should NOT be allowed to continue on new machines coming off the line!
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 pm

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=800776


I made a small 877kb movie, cell phone format. Link above.

It is very late here in Bangkok, one eye open.


Thanks again
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Heres video. What is diagnosis?

Post by steve96822 » Fri May 04, 2012 11:34 pm

http://youtu.be/V40ULSFJG8o

http://youtu.be/V40ULSFJG8o

[BBvideo 425,350]http://youtu.be/V40ULSFJG8o[/BBvideo]

Noise decreases when plastid sides are squeezed
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Sat May 05, 2012 7:56 am

I hope you didn't drink that shot. Just a guess but the front bearing in your pump motor may be shot. Whatever the noise is it is resonating inside the machine so pushing on the side covers might quiet it down some. Time to open it up & take a look. It should be pretty obvious where that noise is coming from with the covers off.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by chas » Sat May 05, 2012 10:01 am

steve96822 wrote: I made a small 877kb movie, cell phone format.
Steve, thanks for reposting in YouTube format. I tried playing the original file on my Android Cell Phone which has about five different apps capable of playing videos in a variety of formats.None of them could handle it.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sat May 05, 2012 1:59 pm

Thanks for your responses and ideas. Will open tomorrow and check the motor / pump.

Just when I got Carraro Globo beans roasted in Italy.


Check out this. I wonder if they have a suitable bearing? Perhaps using a stainless steel ball bearing substitute?

iglidur® Bearings Online-Shop - lubricant-free bearing technology http://www.igus.de/default.asp?PAGE=IGL ... &C=de&L=en
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sat May 05, 2012 2:04 pm

search google "plastic ball bearings" lots of interesting stuff. Also on ebay.

Anyone use such a bearing on their coffee machine?
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sat May 05, 2012 2:05 pm

chas wrote:
steve96822 wrote: I made a small 877kb movie, cell phone format.
Steve, thanks for reposting in YouTube format. I tried playing the original file on my Android Cell Phone which has about five different apps capable of playing videos in a variety of formats.None of them could handle it.

Did you try VLC player?
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sat May 05, 2012 2:07 pm

JohnB wrote:I hope you didn't drink that shot. Just a guess but the front bearing in your pump motor may be shot. Whatever the noise is it is resonating inside the machine so pushing on the side covers might quiet it down some. Time to open it up & take a look. It should be pretty obvious where that noise is coming from with the covers off.

I actually did drink that shot. Seems the hair in my bald spot is growing back. :-P
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by JohnB » Sat May 05, 2012 2:42 pm

I'm not surprised! Don't over think the motor bearing if it is bad. It's a common bearing & will probably last forever if you keep the water out of it. A larger drain hole & the grease will take care of that.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sun May 06, 2012 5:56 am

capacitor.jpg
capacitor.jpg (120.28 KiB) Viewed 16792 times
bearing_core.jpg
bearing_core.jpg (129.21 KiB) Viewed 16792 times
armature.jpg
armature.jpg (190.7 KiB) Viewed 16792 times
motor end to pump.JPG
motor end to pump.JPG (136.17 KiB) Viewed 16792 times
Machine disassembled. Motor and pump removed. (see pics)

There was a small amount of grey residue on floor of motor casing but drain hole was clean and wide open.

Bearings appear to be squeaky clean. Rotate easily with no noise.

I am able to turn pump by hand without noise or irregular resistance.


The endpiece of capacitor (where screw connects was broken. Pic posted shows after super glue gel repair.

Hoses to/from pump appear unobstructed.


Can there be a problem in the outflow of group? Obstruction? Perhaps it causes the noise.

I will try to pull a shot with capacitor connecting screw repaired.
Last edited by steve96822 on Sun May 06, 2012 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sun May 06, 2012 6:01 am

Out of curiosity can a pump be repaired ? Is there any sense in taking it apart ?
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by chas » Sun May 06, 2012 9:45 am

It looks like you're an overachiever. :mrgreen: Given the lack of corrosion on the motor and I assume on the pump, there really wasn't any need to tear down the motor, especially since the shaft rotates freely. If you have read this and other threads about related noise, this type of noise can also be caused by a loose capacitor and it appears you found this to be the case. My guess is that when you reassemble and tighten the capacitor, the noise will vanish.

When I listened to the audio on that video you posted, I thought I could hear the rattling noise over top of all the normal sounds. I think if it was an issue with the pump or motor, I would have heard the recorded noises instead of the normal sounds.

Of course I am assuming that there was no corrosion on the pump shaft. You indicated that you were posting at least one photo of the pump but I see that you have three identical photos of the guts of the motor (bearings_core.jpg) and none of the pump. I am guessing this wasn't what you intended.

BTW: it turned out after further checking that All my Droid apps will play the original 3GPP file you posted, I had just gotten a bad download.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sun May 06, 2012 11:01 am

pump2.jpg
pump2.jpg (111.61 KiB) Viewed 16783 times

Since the motor is apart, should I spray white lithium grease in and in the bearings also?
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sun May 06, 2012 2:02 pm

RESOLVED;

I sprayed white lithium grease compound on bearings and motor armature. Reassembled, capacitor securely mounted.

NOISE GONE.

Sounds new. Just hear that lovely swoosh.

Now I have a slow drip/leak at pump outlet compression fitting. What to do???? if it doesn't reseat itself and stop....
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by MDL » Sun May 06, 2012 2:22 pm

If it is the compression fitting you can replace it. Alternatively you can always try teflon tape to see if you can seal it.

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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by steve96822 » Sun May 06, 2012 11:02 pm

Just to say "Thanks" to everyone that helped.

Re; comp fitting leak. I used #1000 wet sandpaper to finish compression end, teflon tape, and so far no leak.


A friend (jokingly?) suggested it was spoons and cups on the warming tray that were jittering causing the noise LOL, after many hours of disassembly.


IMPORTANT CAVEAT; Take many photos of wiring and connections and hoses, pipes, first.
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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by SimonSoCal » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:55 am

Well after several seraches, I found this topic to be the closest to my problem.
I believe the noie I hearing is from the leaking of the pump. Here is what I discovered.
Resized.jpg
Resized.jpg (349.61 KiB) Viewed 15076 times
I need help.
Questions:
Based on this photo, can I save the motor?
[ I try to turn the rod freehand and will turn freely but with some noticable sound. I then turn on the power and push brew, and it will also turn but the same sound that I notice that got me to investiagate.]

Where can I find the replacement for the bearings?

More improtantly how can I remove the old bearings? Not very good with tools, especially with limited tools. A photos or video will be greatly appreciate.

Much appreciate for the help.

OH, I already ask John but anyone wouldn't mind, can you please tell me where to buy the grease to tubercate the rod? after the replacement of the bearings.

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Re: motor/pump noise

Post by cdnpaul » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:49 pm

I'm guessing the motor is still fine although you'd need to take it apart to really see how much water damage there is in there. The bearings are readily available from lots of parts suppliers - SKF 6202-2Z. Once you get the bearings you can take the shaft to a machine shop and they'll do it for you cheaply. Nothing really complicated about removing the motor and splitting the case. Just take pics so you don't screw anything up. Given that you're not good with tools, attempting to remove the bearing w/o proper tools is not recommended as you could easily mess things up. You'll need to sand the corroded parts to get them nice and clean and make sure you don't let that dust fall into the motor.

I like JohnB's suggestion on drilling the hole bigger so I did that to mine.

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