New S1 shot time

Tips and Tricks you have discovered with your S1, VII, Mini-VII, Dream, or Dream T that lets you do any aspect of coffee making, steaming, maintenance, etc better.
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gene
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New S1 shot time

Post by gene » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:30 am

I have had the Vivaldi II for over a week now. Want to cheat by asking if I'm doing something wrong. I timed a series of doubles and arrived at 13 seconds by observing blonding. Actual shot time is around 11 seconds because I'm timing from the moment I'm touching the Doubles button. Getting just a touch over 2 ounces. After reading another forum there are comments like this popping up:

"Using the same beans and machine, etc., and one shot takes 15 seconds and the next shot takes 25 seconds then there will be a HUGE difference in the taste and texture.

If you enjoy the results than that's fine and maybe you don't need to change anything, but I've never had a shot that was really good at 15 seconds (as I said, 20 seconds is about as fast as I'll go). Maybe our definitions and tastes are different though...."


Now back to my much loved Spaz S1.....Help me to understand how I would change anything in the pursuit of a God Shot....Preinfusion parameters(right now I have 5 seconds)....What are some of the typical tricks or routines everyone does to get a better shot.

Thanks
gene

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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by MDL » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:26 am

Try making your grind finer to increase the shot time and see how it behaves and what it tastes like.

To me it sounds like you have room to increase your extraction time with a finer grind to your coffee. The idea is to balance the parameters to optimize extraction. After you get the shot timing and extraction to your satisfaction play with the temperature to optimize that and you will be set.
Mark

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slo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by slo » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:35 pm

Hello Gene. Welcome and congratulation.

I do not want to sound too dogmatic but the general guideline of: 14-16 grams, 25-35 seconds, 1.5-2 oz is something that you should aim at for a double. A shot of a bit more than 2 oz that poured in 13 seconds with a 5 second preinfusion is very fast and probably will taste thin (at best).

To slow down the poor, as already suggested, you can grind finer but also using fresh"er" coffee, updosing, and tamping harder will do that. But it is all about what you taste in your cup and what you prefer. You may actually like a thinner coffee.

If you do not own a good grinder, get one! It will allow you to make the adjustment necessary. Also, since you are not mentioning dose I assume that you do not have a digital scale. This is absolutely essential that you get one with at least 0.1 gram resolution. A cheap, Internet or Radio shack digital scale will do fine.

For my part, Today, with a home roasted and blended coffee, I am currently using 17.5 grams to produce 1.7 oz in 38 seconds including 8 seconds preinfusion. Yesterday, with a light home roasted (City +) single origin Guatemala Antigua, I was using 14.5 gram to produce 1.7 oz in 35 seconds including 8 seconds preinfusion. Grind setting for both was very close on my grinder, but that was a coincidence. Light tamping (about 15-25 lbs) always using nutation.

I'll stop there and wait to see how much of what I am assuming is true and how useful this is to you.
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gene
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by gene » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:16 pm

Thanks Sylvain and Mark.

I'm using a new Vario which is calibrated to stall empty when the left lever is three notches from the top and right lever is all way up. The resulting grind has been right lever all way up and left lever around one notch up from bottom. I tried grinding a few notches finer with left lever and the V-II stalled this afternoon. I panicked and dropped the brass head with the two filters out. It was clean. I have been grinding too fine!

I'll experiment this week with coarser slightly grinds. Whew! What a learning curve.

I'm using two types of fresh beans both roasted Aug 31. Only five days but I ran out of roasted Monkey Blend yesterday. One is a yummy Ethiopian Yirgacheffe Koke Coop roasted to C+. That is it has been yummy using the Aeropress. The other is a Kenya Kainamui Kianyaga which Tom predicts is going to be his SO espress bean of the year. I was so impressed have 20 pounds of it.

I'll change my pre-infusion from five to eight seconds. I have been using 15.7 G. Have a real good scale using .1 increments.
The tamp? Have the new Cafelat with slight curvature. Been practicing on bathroom scale trying for less than 30 pounds. Have also been watching YouTube of nutation and practicing.

Now to try for 1.7 ounces in 35 seconds.....Thank goodness Sylvain has given me something to shoot for. Trouble now is, starting in morning, I'll be away til next Friday babysitting one of grandkids in Eastern VA for my daughter.....school starts Tuesday and she enters pre-school Thursday.
Thanks guys for being there, with hope!!!!!!
gene

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slo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by slo » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:44 pm

Well, you are on the right track... Good grinder, Good fresh roasted coffee (I just received the same Kenya!) and a good scale.

My B-Vario is calibrated the same way and my espresso position is 1 notch down on the macro (right) lever and about 2/3 down on the micro (left). This seems to be a common setting for a lot of users. You may want to try it around there.

The 30 lbs tamp is usually for a 58mm basket. For a 53mm basket you want to reduce this a bit.

The pre-infusion setting is a personal preference and you have to experiment in your home situation. The effect is highly dependant on house water pressure. I'll roast a batch of the Kenya so that we can have a common point for discussion in a few days.

Cheers.

Sylvain
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by Endo » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:43 am

Lots of good advice so I don't really need to add anything, but one thing I can say for sure, I never had a good shot less than 25 sec.
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

gene
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by gene » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:19 am

Gotta run to other side of state but just had to post........First double for my wife this AM hadn't noticed right lever of Vario had slipped down to 3rd notch from top. Hurriedly repositioned it to top notch halfway thru grind......comedy of errors. Pour was slighly over 3 ounces at 19 seconds. Yuck!

Second pour was 2nd notch down and left lever in 4th notch up......35 seconds later had exactly 2 ounces! Yeah! Not Bad.

When I get back next week I'll do even better.....In retrospect experimenting is one thing. Another is having someone looking over your shpoulder pointing out one's foibles. Have to have a reference point to begin experimenting.
I sincerely appreciate the advice and am anxious to begin the coffee journey.
Thanks again.
gene

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JohnB
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by JohnB » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:49 am

slo wrote:The 30 lbs tamp is usually for a 58mm basket. For a 53mm basket you want to reduce this a bit.
I did a light (15lbs??) nutating tamp when I owned the Vivaldi & still do the same with the (58mm) Speedster. Also don't worry about getting 2oz shots. My favorite shots are typically in the 1-1.5oz range with the shot cut well before blonding.
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gene
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by gene » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:52 pm

Sylvain will have roasted and rested his new Kenya SO by now and will give us an update? With the tips you guys provided and Endo's comprehensive write-up my shots are between 32-35seconds. Had to really play with grind. The biggest surprise for me? Very tiny, seemingly insignicant, very subtle changes translate to great differences in wheteher a shot is mediocre or great! I'm presently experimenting with temperatures.

Had a great visit to Fredericksburg VA this past week and visited Hyperion coffee shop in old town every day. Great coffee. Wonderful stuff out of their LaMarzocco...they get their blend out of Seattle twice each week.
It was so good it almost matched the La Spaziale S1!

Whew, couldn't wait to get home to my beautiful S1.
gene

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slo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by slo » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:46 am

Glad to hear that you shoot at around 30-35 seconds and that you have realise the effect of a minute dose can have on taste.

Many people (including me) reported that longer and excellent shots are possible or the norm on the Vivaldi. I am not sure why. My countdown timer is set at 38 seconds (8 seconds preinfusion and 30 second shot. and I often have shot that will pour beyond that.

I just use the timer to keep track of things. I really watch the pour and stop it when it blonds (or the extraction is too uneven). I just pulled a 14.6 gram, slightly over-extracted Grind setting too fine) Columbian that took 42 seconds for 1.75 on. The aroma is very nice but the taste is a little harsher than it can be. Back off the grind and got a 32 second overall that taste pretty good (for this Colombian).

That being said, the Kenya was (it's all gone) pretty good. I roasted it to City+, (185 grams, 12 minutes, 224°C, on a poppery 1 with Variac Heat control). Rested it for 4 days before the first shot. I will not compete with Tom's description (which is close to what I tasted). I found that it was very complex and flavourful coffee. I just did not get all the brightness that Tom described. I will try another batch this week and see.

My best cup was after 4-5 days rest, 15 grams, very light nutating tamp, 8 second preinfusion, 93°C. It poured in 36 seconds very consistently. This is where I found the most brightness and sweetness. The batch was gone before I knew it. My wife could tell that it was a full flavour coffee even in her Chocolate sprinkled Cappuccino. She is actually pretty good at tasting, just not very good at describing...

I roasted another batch on Sunday with essentially the same profile. I hope that I will find all that brightness that Tom described. I really like coffee on the brighter side these days.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by Endo » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:30 am

slo wrote:Many people (including me) reported that longer and excellent shots are possible or the norm on the Vivaldi. I am not sure why.
Food for thought (perhaps an over simplification):

Do you think ideal shot time is proportional to puck height? (It seems to work out if you compare 58mm machines to the Vivaldis).

How does this theory work for you guys with triple baskets?
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

gene
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by gene » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Puck height?????

Been doing a lot of experimenting this past week. Vario sent a new grinder due to some probs and I adj some with included fancy torx wrench. first got puck height adjusted close to before......used Sylvain's guideline of approx 1.7 oz in 35-38 seconds. Used slight nutation with slight convex tamper....approx 15# tamp with no polish off. 5 day old Kenya Kianamui Kirinyaga roasted to C+.
Seems optimal.

Would really like to hear from some of you and what you view as best.

Haven't gotten good crema lately. Hmmm.
gene

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Endo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by Endo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:36 am

The bit I was saying about puck height is: If it's taller, it will take slightly longer to soak and travel through (longer preinfusion, etc). So you need to add a few seconds extra seconds compared to the 58mm. Just a theory...

I'm also on my second Vario (after my original one died). I don't like it much. For whatever reason, I get a LOT more channeling and sprtizers with the Vario compared to my SJ. Pehaps the Vivaldi empasizes the difference in fines? I've been using them side-by-side for 6 months, alternating between shots so each gets used 50% of the time. And I must say the SJ produces a MUCH better shot. (Just my opinion, most people seems to disagree with me).

My prep is pretty much the same. Lately, I've gone away from the heavy nutation and tamp of 30lbs and now use a finer grind with a slight nutation and tamp. I use a progressively heavier tamp as the beans age to control shot time to between 30 - 35 sec for 1 - 1.5 oz (rather than adjust the grinder).

I'm freshness obsessed.I always use fresh beans. Never more than 2 weeks old. The Vivaldi hates stale beans (much more channeling again). I always get lots of crema.
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

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slo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by slo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:34 pm

Like Endo, I also believe that the smaller basket diameter/height ratio of the Vivaldi is the reason that I am finding better results with longer pours and pre-infusion.

This longer and tighter path is definitly, in my opinion, a reason for the different taste of a Vivaldi, assuming all other parameter would be the same. Although I believe also that it is possible to optimise the taste in a 53mm basket to taste as good as an optimised shot in a 58mm basket. One just has to adjust the other parameters around the basket size.
Endo wrote:How does this theory work for you guys with triple baskets?


I missed that question before. I am using the triple basket for all shots over 15.5g. I think that the head space that this gives makes for an even gentler pre-infusion. I get much better pours with a triple basket with lots of head space than an over packed double basket.

I have been dosing high these last few weeks because the coffee blends that I made just tasted better in the 16 to 17g range.
Endo wrote:And I must say the SJ produces a MUCH better shot. (Just my opinion, most people seems to disagree with me).
The B-Vario is a great grinder but it is not the be-all of grinders. It does not come close to the MXKR ( and many other bigger grinders) in the flavour, definition, fluffiness and ease of adjustment departments. But when compared with similar priced grinders or with similarly functionality equipped grinders, it is a very, very, very good performer.

For me, where the B-Vario as become such a great grinder, is in the small format that allows me to have 3 grinders in the kitchen (MXKR and 1 B-Vario on the counter at all time and 1 B-Vario on a shelf for whatever extra duty). The MXKR is the go-to grinder for me for large batch, in the hopper, of single origins or blended coffee but it is not a single dose grinder. The B-Varios are there for blend trials, single dosing testing, sub-optimal blends (that will be used in milk and flavoured drinks) and decaf. They also allows to serve the press pot, or vacuum brew coffee to guests.

I could not possibly have 3 MXKR's or 3 SJ's in the kitchen. The B-Vario allows me this flexibility while being affordable, performing at an acceptable level and being relatively small. No other grinder that I have tried offers this at this time. Although the new Breville and the B-Precisio might be in the running. I have not tried either and will not comment on them.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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slo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by slo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 pm

gene wrote:...5 day old Kenya Kianamui Kirinyaga roasted to C+... Would really like to hear from some of you and what you view as best.

Haven't gotten good crema lately. Hmmm.
I have found that this coffee (I am all out of it) was indeed best at C+ and certainly was not best over FC. It had a fantastic dry aroma, was tasty but not extremely great... Just my opinion. One thing for sure is that I, like you, was having thin crema with that coffee. Not as much body as I would have expected.

All in all I think that I just did not find a way to make that coffee work...
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by Endo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:48 pm

slo wrote:I am using the triple basket for all shots over 15.5g. I think that the head space that this gives makes for an even gentler pre-infusion. I get much better pours with a triple basket with lots of head space than an over packed double basket.

I have been dosing high these last few weeks because the coffee blends that I made just tasted better in the 16 to 17g range.
OK. OK. I've had all I can take :!: I caved in and just placed a order for the new triple. :grin:
Endo

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oton
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by oton » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:20 pm

slo wrote:I missed that question before. I am using the triple basket for all shots over 15.5g. I think that the head space that this gives makes for an even gentler pre-infusion. I get much better pours with a triple basket with lots of head space than an over packed double basket.
But that means no double spout... :sad8:
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boomdijk
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New S1 shot time

Post by boomdijk » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:24 am

gene wrote:Sylvain will have roasted and rested his new Kenya SO by now and will give us an update? With the tips you guys provided and Endo's comprehensive write-up my shots are between 32-35seconds.
Hello all,

Where can i find the "Endo's comprehensive write-up"?

Thanks,

Johan
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Endo
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Re: New S1 shot time

Post by Endo » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:43 pm

It was part of a discussion called "Controlling Nutation":

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1379
Endo

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